A.C.E. Advanced Combat Environment Mod 2

[Rhodesy77 11]

dosnt matter if he survived, the point is you can bet he was not combat effective, hence could not fight. sadly in arma2 you can not fully simulate battle wounds nor medics on the scale that would be needed. so dieing is more or less the same as becoming combat ineffective. since i doubt the player would rather spend the rest of the mission (several hours) laying either in the mud or on a stretcher waiting to be medivacted then operated on back at base....

its all about compromises guys.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Rhodesy77

[stgn 39]

According to the ballistic gellatine tests diagrams the 7.62 even with overpenetration and without fragmentation or tumbiling is creating massive dammage with shockwave alone. Since our bodies are filled with fluids the pressure wave propagates just fine and smashes stuff within us like a hammer (The shape of the nose of bullet is of great importance btw).

The diagramm for 5.56 looks simmilar, untill you look at how axes are scalled. ;)

The 5.56 wounds are much harder to heal after you survive the hit and more people would die over time due to infection or bleeding, which would also prove to be more of a burden to enemy force... The fragmentation does make up for lack of mass, the kinetic energy is distributed over large area. But it's still not as good as 7.62.

This is assuming that you were hit at short or medium range where the 5.56 will shatter.

The 7.62 is unarguabely superior when dealing wioth body armour at any range.

As to implementation:

The dammage dealt by bullet is in ArmA downscalled as velocity decreases linearly and there is no choice about it, it is an engine limitation and you cannot have the effect of fragmentation/no fragmentation of 5.56 taken into account properly. Plus the 5.56 has much poorer armour penetration. But as someone said "in ArmA soldiers have hitpoints", so let's leave that alone ;).

Hmm which 7.62 are you talking about? 62g M855 5.56 doesn't shatter on impact its amour piercing, what it does is that if its traveling at over 2700 feet pr second it will fragment, because the nose is slowed down faster than the rear, the rear will try to "over take" the nose causing the projectile to bent and shatter instead of just tumbling like the 5.45. That is at least how I understand it.

STGN

[enforcer1975 0]

I don't think size really matters in rifle calibers. If the bullet is designed to transfer a lot of energy into the target that will do :D

ArmA 2 should be able to differ between armored and non armored infantry? If yes just add a bit more damage to simulate stopping power :p

And those who think the russian 7.62 is superior to body armor. There is a viedo on youtube where a grunt gets hit in the chest with a SVD. Afaik he just broke a rib or just got a bruise and his team captured the wannabe sniperterrorists. Their fault for waiting for him to face them with the front side of his body armor :D

[schaefsky 0]

You say you dont like the extra option ACE2 gives us with carrying empty sandbags that we can build up defenses with?

...

I think you just didnt grasp how awesome they are. But that should have changed now. :)

Alex

Geez, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Sorry for swearing but this attitude is getting on my nerves.

The only thing I was trying to say is that I personaly think while the sandbags are a nice feature (and I forgot ACE is giving / will give us more features to deploy them more flexible), I also think the dirt heaps are pretty cool as cover and in my opinion look just better in open terrain.

I am not saying that the ACE team is stupid, isn't awesome, I think I can do everthing better and they should throw out the sandbags alltogether.

I am saying that it could be nice to add an additional feature (adding the dirt hepas as cover and maybe the bigger ones for tanks and stuff and make them deployable via script). Since I think that feature is fairly easy to implement I was also offering to do it myself, since I feal up to this task.

Screw it, I will just try to do it as a standalone script, and if anyone likes it (including ACE and other mods), they can use it ... or not. It is called choice.

This is strange, did you actually see how the ACE1 sandbags where? There was a custom object of a single sandbag that you can put over any surface in the game ( Flat surfaces ). I mean, a single sandbag is small, maybe you are thinking about the sandbag object that are in the game ( larger sandbag made "wall") ?

---------- Post added at 03:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 AM ----------

A pic explain better :) on the left you can see a single sandbag, on the right 3 sandbags piled up.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7382/acesand.jpg

It was a brilliant feature in A1, proven to be very useful and the the way it was implemented is just perfect.

I really totaly seem to have missed that feature in ACE1.

Your picture shows very nice how out of place a dirt heap as cover would look in this scenario, just like I think sandbags look a bit out of place in e.g. the woods.

Anyways, when I have something to show for, I will open an extra thread.

Sorry for further derailing this IMO already cluttered thread. Thought it was a good idea, did not think it would turn out like this.

[TOTAL22 0]

I will look forward to that script, schaefsky.

Convincing everyone by showing is the quickest way to go :)

[Evil_Echo 11]

1. Wound and ballistics.

Anyone who thinks that just the caliber matters is incredibly naive. When you design a round, there are trade-offs in penetration vs damage vs range vs etc....

A 7.62mm round travels further and can often punch through body armor better. But it often goes straight though a human body - exit wound not much larger than 8mm.

A 5.56mm will tumble on impact and transfer nearly all of it's kinetic energy to the target. You can get huge wounds from it. Plus that round has a nasty habit of richocheting around inside you. However that round deflects off foliage easily, loses speed faster and certainly has less ability to penetrate armor.

Simulating these issues is not trivial. If shot in the chest the 7.62mm will have better chance of defeating body armor and causing an injury - though not as likely to be fatal due to bullet characterics ( could easily survive or even fight back for a while ). A 5.56mm to the thigh would not encounter armor and could either destroy the femoral artery or even bounce off the bone and go upwards ( know a case of that happening - round exited opposing shoulder, destroyed the victim's lung along the way ). Such wounds can kill very quickly.

2. Sandbags, craters, dirt piles, etc.

Building up land features has proven to be far easier than digging down. There was some work by Loki and his team to do dynamic terrain, have not heard much recently though.

If someone comes up with a workable system for altering terrain that meets ACE's quality standards I would think the team would at least take a look at it.

[Ryujin 0]

1. Wound and ballistics.

Anyone who thinks that just the caliber matters is incredibly naive. When you design a round, there are trade-offs in penetration vs damage vs range vs etc....

A 7.62mm round travels further and can often punch through body armor better. But it often goes straight though a human body - exit wound not much larger than 8mm.

Arrrg! My pet peeve... 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 makes a BIG difference. Russian (but generally not Chinese) 7.62x39 tumbles. I usually tumbles late, so you get nasty exist wounds when hitting the thickest parts of the body. 7.62x51 is obviously much higher velocity, but forms pretty "tame" wounds without a permanent cavity significantly larger than the round.

I think someone also mentioned pressure waves previously, as far as I know those do not make much of a difference in small arms calibers. Most human tissue is pretty elastic and 70% water, so it just stretches, much like what you see on ballistic gelatin tests. Some tissues like the liver can be damaged, but I don't think that will make any real difference to weather your round dropped someone or not. However in the case of something like .50, it stretches them well beyond the breaking point.

A 5.56mm will tumble on impact and transfer nearly all of it's kinetic energy to the target. You can get huge wounds from it. Plus that round has a nasty habit of richocheting around inside you. However that round deflects off foliage easily, loses speed faster and certainly has less ability to penetrate armor.

5.56mm will fragment on impact if it is the right round type like M855 and if the target is less than 150m away, so it has the necessary velocity. A properly fragmenting round is probably more effective than a 7.62x39 hit (keep in mind if you fail to hit the CNS or heart, your round will not be immediately lethal. Massive blood loss/blood pressure drop is the only other thing to take them out of the fight, and fragmenting 5.56 does that pretty well. Though in most cases it doesn't matter, as incapacitation is often physiological. Most people are incapacitated from physiological factors and conditioning, not hit their limits of physical incapacitation. Take those insurgents on pure adrenaline for an example of the psychological element removed. Those guys would take multiple rounds to the chest and just get up and run away or engage in hand to hand combat without an arm. So modeling all this stuff is pretty complex, but ACE1 was pretty good, except for the AI getting up after laying there unconscious and bleeding out for 7 minutes and keep fighting.

2. Sandbags, craters, dirt piles, etc.

Building up land features has proven to be far easier than digging down. There was some work by Loki and his team to do dynamic terrain, have not heard much recently though.

If someone comes up with a workable system for altering terrain that meets ACE's quality standards I would think the team would at least take a look at it.

Dynamic terrain requires islands made specifically for it and I don't *think* it worked with stuff like trees.

[das attorney 857]

Without going into too much unnecessary detail, I work for a company that insures the US military, and some of the work involves claims relating to gunshot wounds sustained while on TDY (rare) or more commonly, while on deployment. Irrespective of the politics of the situation, a lot of good young men are left with life changing injuries from either 5.56 or 7.62. There's not a lot to choose from when looking at the injuries - significant numbers involve massive tissue trauma and broken bones (often with the bone acting as shrapnel as it comes apart). Some get lucky and get a 'flesh wound', but sadly this is less common - we even had one poor guy who was grazed by a 7.62 and then fell over, shattering his wrist as he tried to stop his fall. (The 25kg backpack he was wearing didn't help). The bullet wound was superficial but the consequential open break had him in hospital for much longer.

As Evil Echo stated, 5.56 will shatter and transfer more energy to the target (or maybe hit a bone and then follow it). I've observed though that 7.62 is more likely to pass through a person, but it creates a hydraulic vacuum (not sure if that is the correct medical term) and literally sucks out the gooey mess created from the pressure wave as it passes through the human body.

Shock, too is a killer as without the attention of bods who know what they're doing, relatively minor injuries can be complicated.

Ultimately, I don't think there's much difference between the two. Most of the people we deal with attest their survival and (hopefully successful rehabilitation) to the quality of the medical care afforded to them. It's quite clear that without prompt medical attention, a good deal of these young men would be dead. Clearly, being hit with a round from an assault rifle is no joke, and would very quickly drain the will of the victim to participate in further combat.

I hope that you (the reader) is not offended by this post. I don't want to come across as flippant, and I have the utmost respect for the servicemen I've had the honour of talking to. Maybe the 'ACE X Mod' thread isn't the place for these kind of discussions anyway. I just thought it important to get my views on this across. Personally, I think the current BIS system is okay. If the ACE guys want to mod the wound behaviour, that's cool too. I'm more looking towards the other features of ACE, and think that there should be less emphasis on the medical consequences of wounds. After all, this isn't a 'Doctor Simulator'. Maybe that's just the nature of my job getting to me, but it's something I'm not too excited about. However, I can see that some excellent missions could be put together rescuing fallen brothers in arms, but this should be balanced out by wanting to play the game and be involved in the action, not waiting on a stretcher for 20 minutes, while a medic occasionally selects something from a menu to keep you alive until an airlift can take you to safety (and convalescence).

That kind of thing should be left to the realm of mission makers IMO and not forced on everyone as the default ACE experience.

Thanks, DA

(PS - I know nothing of 5.56 vs 7.62 with respect to armour) I only have observed their effect on the human body)

[cas 41]

dosnt matter if he survived, the point is you can bet he was not combat effective, hence could not fight. sadly in arma2 you can not fully simulate battle wounds nor medics on the scale that would be needed. so dieing is more or less the same as becoming combat ineffective. since i doubt the player would rather spend the rest of the mission (several hours) laying either in the mud or on a stretcher waiting to be medivacted then operated on back at base....

its all about compromises guys.

You should have the option to stop playing your incapacitated soldier! You could re spawn in the meantime as a new soldier. For the incapacitated soldier it is the same as dying is now. But for his team members we have a new situation! They have someone they have to get out of danger, treat and evacuate!

Of course they can also chose to leave him behind as if he is dead. That is probably what a drug intoxicated third world kind of soldier would do...

A modern army would care!

If ACE would implement that more causalities get incapacitated and that you can transport the incapacitated and dead soldiers you would have the option to adopt a new play style. You still have the option to play as you were used to (ignoring the incapacitated).

About the discussion of different calibres and the damage they make...

I just don’t see that you would be expected to continue to fight (the offensive way) no matter what calibre punctured your skin.

[Evil_Echo 11]

Like I said - caliber is not the sole factor.

The x39 does tumble easier than the x51. But as mentioned, it has that effect only on large sections of tissue - whereas the 5.56 NATO round destablises in very short distances in matter denser than air ( e.g. flesh ). Some 7.62 rounds start to tumble after traveling through 15-20cm of flesh, nearly through a human chest. A 5.56mm round, especially the older versions fired through low-twist barrels, would tumble in as little as 3cm. The effect is far more devasting.

Also the topic of temporary vs permanent cavity was mentioned. It's subject of debate even among experts as to how significant it can be. But it is agreed that hydrostatic shock can disrupt tissue in some cases.

Fragmentation is also a factor. Often a 5.56mm will break up during tumbling, leading to even more energy transfer. If you did not know better, you'd think the round had exploded based on the damage.

Agree that individual response to trauma is extremely variable. That makes the damage modeling even more tricky.

Personally I think the major grief many people had with ACE1 wound system was how the AI was handled. Getting ambushed by a enemy AI soldier you thought was down for the count can be aggravating to be sure. ACE is taking those comments seriously in the new design. Wait and see what we come up with, ok?

[Panda_pl 0]

It is an intresting subject. However the more you think about it the implementation seems to get harder and harder.

It seems that the angle at which you were shot might be the deciding factor.

I took the diagrams from here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

and put them over eachother:

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6848/tempdoz.jpg

The good news is that 7.62 will not fully tumble in your body.

Bad news is that it will likely exit the body sideways.

The exit wond should be bigger thatn 5.56 unless your body is really slender. ;)

If you are prone or standing but hit from side (running etc) the bullet will tumble and you are seriously messed up.

I am wondering if having body armour does not actually act to diasadvantage in this case as it will deform and dammage the bullets unless it stopps them completely.

In case of 5.56 it's better if it will not fragmentate, because if it will you are in great trouble no matter what.

And this is all if we assume we are just bags full of gellatine.

Stopping power and wound severity are to some degree separate issues.

For example if a carbine bullet hits your helmet and does not penetrate you still are immiediately out of combat and for longer time, even if there is no injury.

I can also imagine the effect it will have on enemy combatant if his guts get shaken and mixed, even if the wound is not serious. Demoralising effect itself can be enougth for the guy not to try to get back into combat.

So in total... perhabs it's better to just assign some empirical values to the dammage= for bullets and not worry about it.

[Alex72 1]

Geez, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Wow... Am i not entitled to think its great with more options? Am i not entitled to explain to others about having more options?

I understand now you didnt manage to explain it the way you wanted, but no need for snapping with those words at me. I had no such intensions towards you. Only to explain what i think you didnt know.

I mean no harm.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Alex72

[Ryujin 0]

So in total... perhabs it's better to just assign some empirical values to the dammage= for bullets and not worry about it.

Yeah, especially with the ArmA engine it's better to abstract it and not worry about simulating it. Just try to get reasonable end results. The best thing is to try to randomize it somewhat. So if I shoot guy A in the leg with 2 9mm and guy B with 2 9mm in the leg, they won't have the EXACT same results, but some variation in say bleeding and stuff. Or say have 5.56mm do more damage at range under 100-150m (that might be tricky).

[Tonci87 163]

Maybe I´m wrong, but isn´t this the ACE 2 Thread? It seems to me someone converted it into the which caliber kills the best? Thread.

[Smurf 12]

Maybe I´m wrong, but isn´t this the ACE 2 Thread? It seems to me someone converted it into the which caliber kills the best? Thread.

And what else we can discuss? :p

There isn´t much more questions to be answered (again), dev are releasing stuff in regular basis, we can´t especulate much and there is some servers with ACE2 Alpha already.

Maybe we are close to some release....

[Pain0815 10]

No i dont want new modeled stuff or anything complicated with terraforming, hehe.

I took a few pics:

Here you see what i mean with able to dig cover for vehicles. This 4 things are already in the editor.

Here are the camo nets, Would be cool if they would block the ability to lock on the targets below them.

Would be a nice additional feature to be able to dig in your troops to prepare for a fight.

And cover anti air or tank positions against jets and choppers with the camo.

EDIT: Maybe a shovel for the inventory or the bagpack wich is needed to shovel such things up

If you have shovel in inventory then you will get a mousemenue entry to build cover, then you can choose between those 4 statics and then you rotate and place them

The camo nets could be an inventory item too which you need to carry somewhere and then you can build them up to cover positions against air targets

Just some ideas

Edited November 21, 2009 by Pain0815

[das attorney 857]

An E-Tool would be quite cool. The best use of it would be to batter your opponent if you're out of ammunition of course :)

However, there's a huge thread on bayonets and close combat weapons floating around somewhere, but it doesn't look like anyone's making a mod like that.

[Delta 51 10]

any chance to include some aussie units?

[Colossus 2]

ACE aims to improve gameplay into a more realistic combat sim, basing it on the original content, not replacement packs for a spesfic nation.

Aussie units would be over, at Project Aus (Armaholic forums).

[Smurf 12]

Would be nice to see others studios integrating the ACE2 units list, as we have now in the Project Reality, "Community Factions" that are included in the game. FDF, BW, AUS, UFK, GROM\Polish, PLA,RACS,FFAA etc... as separated downloable packs, fully compatibile with each other.

Would be a dream...

[b00ce 160]

I have a suggestion for the Stryker MGS. When it shoots make a shell come out of the back of the turret some time later. See vid.

Best quality vid I could find. 3:15 is a good reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzi8cBiHfGM

[Ryujin 0]

An E-Tool would be quite cool. The best use of it would be to batter your opponent if you're out of ammunition of course :)

Batter? Slice would be more of the verb.

Personally I'm more partial to helmet throwing...

But yeah, I could see an E tool for making those small pieces of cover, a bit more realistic and faster than sandbags.

For tank sized cover, I'd make a custom model without the wood backing, more like a larger version of those small dirt ones. But it would take forever to make something like that with an E tool, a tank with a digging blade or an engineering vehicle would be even better.

[scubaman3D 0]

I have a suggestion for the Stryker MGS. When it shoots make a shell come out of the back of the turret some time later. See vid.

Best quality vid I could find. 3:15 is a good reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzi8cBiHfGM

This was already in ACE1

[das attorney 857]

Batter? Slice would be more of the verb.

You're right of course - slicing and chopping are more E-Tool territory. On a tangent, I didn't even know about it until I saw that ridiculously amusing show "Deadliest Warrior" - very funny, Slitherine Studios and Max Geiger. You couldn't make it up! :)

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

You should have the option to stop playing your incapacitated soldier! You could re spawn in the meantime as a new soldier. For the incapacitated soldier it is the same as dying is now. But for his team members we have a new situation! They have someone they have to get out of danger, treat and evacuate!

Of course they can also chose to leave him behind as if he is dead. That is probably what a drug intoxicated third world kind of soldier would do...

A modern army would care!

If ACE would implement that more causalities get incapacitated and that you can transport the incapacitated and dead soldiers you would have the option to adopt a new play style. You still have the option to play as you were used to (ignoring the incapacitated).

I know that most people in the "Realism Unit" community would love to be able to bring the bodies of their fallen comrades back to base or back home for a proper burial. The ability to load your dead into a truck or APC or ambulance would be awesome.