A.C.E. Advanced Combat Environment Mod 2

[sky_line 11]

I just mean that in single, some features of ACE1 wound system affected the gameplay, I realise that it is hard as hell to make different types of bullets and I don't think that it is really necessary in the game. The main idea is to make ACE more SP-friendly with adjustable WS parameters.

Edit: IMO, the 7.62 bullet has more range than 5.56 and 5.45 because of the weight and kinetic energy: less weight - less stable. here is the proof:

The AK-103 has 7.62 calibre bullet. I doubt about 5.45 or 5.56 can be effective on that range.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Sky_Line

[jhoson14 10]

Its not recomended to play the Single Player campaing with ACE.

Wich 7.62 are guys talking about?

Becouse a 7.62x51mm have a greater range if compared to a 5.56x45mm.Unless you guys are refering to 7.62x39mm.

[sky_line 11]

Its not recomended to play the Single Player campaing with ACE.

Wich 7.62 are guys talking about?

Why the hell not?!! Isn't it cool to have sight adjustment and other cool things in single?

I was comparing 7.62x39 with 5.45x39 and 5.56x45. And as I think the 7.62 is much more effective at big distances and also at close ranges too, 'cause it has higher penetration qualities. Yeah the 5.56 and 5.45 has more speed but I'd rather prefer to have more chances to kill a guy in armor vest than just scratch him.

[enforcer1975 0]

Why the hell not?!! Isn't it cool to have sight adjustment and other cool things in single?

I was comparing 7.62x39 with 5.45x39 and 5.56x45. And as I think the 7.62 is much more effective at big distances and also at close ranges too, 'cause it has higher penetration qualities. Yeah the 5.56 and 5.45 has more speed but I'd rather prefer to have more chances to kill a guy in armor vest than just scratch him.

If i understand you correct you prefer the smaller bullet rather than the bigger one, right? That's imho the better choice because a penetrating bullet delivers less energy in the target.

@ Sky_Line

At combat range the smaller bullet is more effective at combat range than the bigger one due to the penetration. Sure you still have more energy at greater distances provided that you hit the target due to the higher trajectory and slower travel speed compared to the flatter trajectory of the 5.56.

[reconteam 19]

The AK-103 is uses the old 7.62x39mm caliber used by the classic AKM. It is not a true rifle caliber however like 7.62x51mm. Yes the round can go 1000 meters but the chances of actually hitting a man sized target at the range are slim, and even then the round probably doesn't have enough power to take down the target.

Technically the M16A2 has a max range for an "area target" of 800 meters, but beyond 500 meters or so you really should be using something more than an intermediate caliber.

There is some confusion over the latest generation of AK rifles so here is a quick rundown. Note that most of the 5.56mm designs are intended for export.

AK-74M (5.45x39mm)

AK-101 (5.56x45mm)

AK-103 (7.62x39mm)

The only major difference between these models is the caliber, the AK-74M is currently the Russian Army's standard weapon although the AK-103 is supposedly used in limited numbers.

AK-102 (compact version of AK-101)

AK-104 (compact version of AK-103)

AK-105 (compact version of AK-74M)

These are all shortened versions of the previous designs although they are not as short as the AKS-74U.

AK-107 (5.45x39mm)

AK-108 (5.56x45mm)

These rifles use a "balanced operating system" designed to reduce recoil, have a higher cyclic rate of fire, and have an optional three-round burst mode. In ArmA2 the Russians use the AK-107 although I do not know the status of the project in real life.

AN-94 (5.45x39mm)

Technically not a Kalashnikov rifle but for awhile the Russians planned for the AN-94 to become their new standard rifle. It has a unique two round burst mode that delays the recoil until both shots have been fired minimizing any deviation between the two rounds. While used in limited numbers I believe the Russians no longer plan to replace the AK-74 with this.

AEK-971 (5.45x39mm)

AEK-972 (5.56x45mm)

AEK-973 (7.62x39mm)

These weapons are also not Kalashnikov designs but they competitor with the AN-94 in competitions for Russia's next rifle and lost. However in the early 2000s the AEK-971 saw limited production until 2006. They use a "balanced operating design" similar to the AK-107.

[sky_line 11]

What is "combat range"? IMO, but 7.62x39 is better than 5.45 and 5.56. You saw a vid? Can m16 hit a target which is 1000 yards away? I really doubt that.

Yes the round can go 1000 meters but the chances of actually hitting a man sized target at the range are slim, and even then the round probably doesn't have enough power to take down the target.

Yeah but 5.56 or 5.45 won't even fly this distance, sure if you're not pointing your gun at about 45 degrees to the line of target, LOL:)

Edited November 19, 2009 by Sky_Line

[TOTAL22 0]

Why the hell not?!! Isn't it cool to have sight adjustment and other cool things in single?

I was comparing 7.62x39 with 5.45x39 and 5.56x45. And as I think the 7.62 is much more effective at big distances and also at close ranges too, 'cause it has higher penetration qualities. Yeah the 5.56 and 5.45 has more speed but I'd rather prefer to have more chances to kill a guy in armor vest than just scratch him.

now, it seems to me again you guys are starting to talk about your own likings...?

First, this thread is about ACE2, and not about what ACE1 was like.

In addition, they have already said that they are redesigning the wound system from scratch, if I'm not mistaken, right?

So, you are all welcome to complain and/or debate about ACE2s features when it comes out but please please don't go on about something which hasn't been released yet.

Surely, this is not the thread where we should be debating about each and our own unique likings.

Edited November 19, 2009 by TOTAL22

[vilas 474]

Sky_Line - what is combat range ?

M16 vs AK ?

remember about accuracy and trajectory

kinetic energy is not main reason why one weapon is better than second

of course "bullet" can have power, but weapons made for this round may be not perfect

while weapons made for other bullet are much better when it comes to accuracy

in game you have one parameter for dispersion, probably there is no other way to make "trajectory poor and loosing accuracy after XXX meters"

army equipped with M16A2/A4 will have better effect on battlefield than army equipped with AKMS and RPK

why ? cause on 400 meters you will see who will be more accurate

of course situation can little change when this second army replaces old stuff with AEK and AK103 but you know

bullet is one thing, weapons produced massively is other , you may have right theoretically but take under account AKMS, M16A4 etc.

one bullet can be better, while other rifle using other bullet have better flat trajectory

if it was so good and super, why Soviet army made 5.45 system in 70's, Soviet/Russians always do sense practical equipment useful not gadgets, so why they did it ? for sure not to "follow imperialists"?

Edited November 19, 2009 by vilas

[NoRailgunner 0]

Why not wait till ACE2 is released? Guess there are many things that need a polish or finetuning here and there - and of course BIS didnt release the last + final patch for Arma2 yet. Its all in progress...

[Pain0815 10]

I got an Idee what the ACE guys could add to their Mod.

Would be cool if you could build and carry some camouflage nets which really stop the ability to lock on the vehicles under them (choppers, jets and javelins cant lock on).

Edited November 19, 2009 by Pain0815

[schaefsky 0]

Not sure if it isn't already a planned feature, but:

I always missed something like dug-in positions (if this the correct term). Now, IIRC it is not possible to lower terrain to make ditches, neither is it possible to make vehicles go into ground (I think this works with static objects like MGs, though).

So, I have been playing "Blitzkrieg 2" recently, and in this game you can tell your tanks and heavy guns to dig-in, kind off. The way they do it is putting a sandbag wall or heap of dirt in front of the unit (depending on terrain type).

This should be possible in Arma 2, too, shouldn't it? Just put a "cover-object" (sandbags, dirt-heaps) in front of the vehicle / unit to provide some cover.

I think one could even go so far as replacing a tank with a static object tank and lower it into the ground, but I think that's probably not worth the hastle because of MP issues and would look a bit stupid anyway.

If your interested, but don't have time, I could also try to provide you with a proof-of-concept (and maybe full-script later on).

[sky_line 11]

if it was so good and super, why Soviet army made 5.45 system in 70's, Soviet/Russians always do sense practical equipment useful not gadgets, so why they did it ? for sure not to "follow imperialists"?

well, I know some people, who served in the soviet/russian army and they told me that this calibre change is not so good. If to compare AK-74M and AK-103 - imo, 103rd is better.

I've also read in the book called "Russian firearms" by Charlie Cutshaw, where he wrote that there was an attempt in Russia to use a new developed ammunition and weapon system based on 6x49mm rounds. But unfortunately, there were not enough resources for that.

PS: Well, since ACE2 is still in progress, I think we can discuss the nearby things here, imo:)

[Pain0815 10]

In the editor there are nice walls to protect vehicles and infantry. They could build by infantry together with camouflage nets to build defensive positions to hold key areas.

They are looking like raised terrain from front and have a wooden wall behind.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Pain0815

[Inkompetent 0]

Different rounds are good for different things. Simple as that. 7.62x39mm is only effective out to 300-400m. After 400m the bullet drop is so severe it's getting hard to hit anything, and after 500m it is outright impossible, even if the weapon could fire the round straight enough.

Also, at 300m a 7.62x39mm fired from an AK-47 has pretty much equal kinetic energy as a 5.56x45mm fired from an M16, the 7.62 losing energy FAST (amount of propellant vs bullet weight), while the 5.56 can retain it much better.

Not going to argue about effectiveness of impact though since we have different bullet shape, diameter, construction and mass, but it can give a hint about why different rounds are good for different things.

All in all the ACE1 system was good as far as damage and penetration can be considered. It was AI getting up like nothing had happened when they regained conciousness that was a problem, and that I bet is what most people are interested in how it is solved, not whether bullet penetration or damage is perfectly spot on considering to source X, source Y or source Z, or a mix of the three.

[vilas 474]

Different rounds are good for different things. Simple as that. 7.62x39mm is only effective out to 300-400m. After 400m the bullet drop is so severe it's getting hard to hit anything, and after 500m it is outright impossible, even if the weapon could fire the round straight enough.

Also, at 300m a 7.62x39mm fired from an AK-47 has pretty much equal kinetic energy as a 5.56x45mm fired from an M16, the 7.62 losing energy FAST (amount of propellant vs bullet weight), while the 5.56 can retain it much better.

Not going to argue about effectiveness of impact though since we have different bullet shape, diameter, construction and mass, but it can give a hint about why different rounds are good for different things.

All in all the ACE1 system was good as far as damage and penetration can be considered. It was AI getting up like nothing had happened when they regained conciousness that was a problem, and that I bet is what most people are interested in how it is solved, not whether bullet penetration or damage is perfectly spot on considering to source X, source Y or source Z, or a mix of the three.

yes i wrote it site ago, about flat trajectory of 5.56 ammo

while AK weapons massively used are less accurate than M16 (not only ammo is important, but massively owned weapons for ammo)

but game has its limits and many things cannot be applied

[Uglyboy 10]

Not sure if it isn't already a planned feature, but:

I always missed something like dug-in positions (if this the correct term). Now, IIRC it is not possible to lower terrain to make ditches, neither is it possible to make vehicles go into ground (I think this works with static objects like MGs, though).

So, I have been playing "Blitzkrieg 2" recently, and in this game you can tell your tanks and heavy guns to dig-in, kind off. The way they do it is putting a sandbag wall or heap of dirt in front of the unit (depending on terrain type).

This should be possible in Arma 2, too, shouldn't it? Just put a "cover-object" (sandbags, dirt-heaps) in front of the vehicle / unit to provide some cover.

I think one could even go so far as replacing a tank with a static object tank and lower it into the ground, but I think that's probably not worth the hastle because of MP issues and would look a bit stupid anyway.

If your interested, but don't have time, I could also try to provide you with a proof-of-concept (and maybe full-script later on).

You didn't bother to check the features list right? It was already possible in ACE1 to place sandbags ( and even pile them ) and it will possible too in ACE 2

[Pain0815 10]

You didn't bother to check the features list right? It was already possible in ACE1 to place sandbags ( and even pile them ) and it will possible too in ACE 2

Thats a really nice feature, but whats with big digged cover for vehicles and camo nets which hide vehicles?

[waycool 0]

Amazing ACE 2 looks fabulous. Can't wait it will be a must have. Cheers.

[Panda_pl 0]

According to the ballistic gellatine tests diagrams the 7.62 even with overpenetration and without fragmentation or tumbiling is creating massive dammage with shockwave alone. Since our bodies are filled with fluids the pressure wave propagates just fine and smashes stuff within us like a hammer (The shape of the nose of bullet is of great importance btw).

The diagramm for 5.56 looks simmilar, untill you look at how axes are scalled. ;)

The 5.56 wounds are much harder to heal after you survive the hit and more people would die over time due to infection or bleeding, which would also prove to be more of a burden to enemy force... The fragmentation does make up for lack of mass, the kinetic energy is distributed over large area. But it's still not as good as 7.62.

This is assuming that you were hit at short or medium range where the 5.56 will shatter.

The 7.62 is unarguabely superior when dealing wioth body armour at any range.

As to implementation:

The dammage dealt by bullet is in ArmA downscalled as velocity decreases linearly and there is no choice about it, it is an engine limitation and you cannot have the effect of fragmentation/no fragmentation of 5.56 taken into account properly. Plus the 5.56 has much poorer armour penetration. But as someone said "in ArmA soldiers have hitpoints", so let's leave that alone ;).

[schaefsky 0]

You didn't bother to check the features list right? It was already possible in ACE1 to place sandbags ( and even pile them ) and it will possible too in ACE 2

To be honest, no I did not check.

But now that I did, I remember reading about the sandbags before :)

However, that is not exactly what I meant. In the editor, there are objects (like dirt heaps) you can place which provide some cover while you can still lie down and shoot to the front over the cover. And I think they look good.

Blabla... will try to upload a mission over the weekend in which I used these rather extensivly. I think this will better show what I mean than me talking.

Thinking about it, it would probably be pretty much the same thing like the sandbags, just without the sandbags and piling. ;)

While I did use sandbags in OFP and Arma1 to make firing positions, I always thought they look a bit stupid (in many cases, at least. Just like a heap of dirt as cover will look rather stupid on let's say a runway). And now that there are such nice objects in Vanilla, why not put them to good use?

[noubernou 77]

To be honest, no I did not check.

But now that I did, I remember reading about the sandbags before :)

However, that is not exactly what I meant. In the editor, there are objects (like dirt heaps) you can place which provide some cover while you can still lie down and shoot to the front over the cover. And I think they look good.

Blabla... will try to upload a mission over the weekend in which I used these rather extensivly. I think this will better show what I mean than me talking.

Thinking about it, it would probably be pretty much the same thing like the sandbags, just without the sandbags and piling. ;)

While I did use sandbags in OFP and Arma1 to make firing positions, I always thought they look a bit stupid (in many cases, at least. Just like a heap of dirt as cover will look rather stupid on let's say a runway). And now that there are such nice objects in Vanilla, why not put them to good use?

Because sandbags provide for a maintainable and customizable defensive position to be built more easily. Its easier to stack a wall of sandbags than it is to make a pile of dirt the equivalent size.

Also just because they put sandbags in the game doesn't mean you can't use the objects that are already there...

[schaefsky 0]

Because sandbags provide for a maintainable and customizable defensive position to be built more easily. Its easier to stack a wall of sandbags than it is to make a pile of dirt the equivalent size.

And in this case I think size matters! I actually like the smaller cover the dirt heaps provide.

Also just because they put sandbags in the game doesn't mean you can't use the objects that are already there...

I would like to rephrase that:

Also just because there already are sandbags in the game doesn't mean you can't use the other objects that are also there...

I promise I will get that mission up somewhere, I really suck at explaining things.

[Alex72 1]

You say you dont like the extra option ACE2 gives us with carrying empty sandbags that we can build up defenses with?

They've proven very useful in ArmA1 where we built up cover before a strike from different directions. Even when i was alone one time on a field. I had nothing to hide behind but carried a couple of empty sandbags. There was a patrol on my tail and as they got closer (i was not detected but they were searching and head my way) i managed to get 5 bags up - made like a pyramid basically with 2+2 at bottom and 1 on top in the middle of the bottom ones - i got enough protection to take them out. They shot at me and the bags took the punishment. Without them i would be dead.

So they are useful. Not to say its a very cool and fun element of the game ACE2 brings with those bags. ;)

EDIT: Like UglyBoy (what a name lol :D ) said below: They are individual empty sandbags that you through the action menu fill one at the time and then hold in your hand. You put them down where ever you want and can stack them ontop eachother building defences as you want. You can build them up so you make firing holes between the bags for example. And like the ACE2 feature video showed (if you missed that?) you can even place these bags on top of your vehicles hood!

I think you just didnt grasp how awesome they are. But that should have changed now. :)

Alex

Edited November 20, 2009 by Alex72

[Uglyboy 10]

And in this case I think size matters! I actually like the smaller cover the dirt heaps provide.

This is strange, did you actually see how the ACE1 sandbags where? There was a custom object of a single sandbag that you can put over any surface in the game ( Flat surfaces ). I mean, a single sandbag is small, maybe you are thinking about the sandbag object that are in the game ( larger sandbag made "wall") ?

---------- Post added at 03:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 AM ----------

A pic explain better :) on the left you can see a single sandbag, on the right 3 sandbags piled up.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7382/acesand.jpg

It was a brilliant feature in A1, proven to be very useful and the the way it was implemented is just perfect.

[Angle 10]

I'd like to request a feature.

Putting satchel charges in/on/under cars, chopper and planes. And then when someone drives off with it you can touch off the bomb. Made for great fun in battlefield 2.