ODOL Explorer v2.0

[Pathy 0]

yes i agress with TJ, my point was, why did you have to put a bloody save option in?  

I mean, everything above to do with learning from addons could have been done without a save option, now we have a shortcut mentality, its not a good thing.

Oh and if you want to edit someone elses model, you have to ask permission anyway....before this tool, you HAD to ask for permission so theyd send you the MLOD. Now, there is nothing to force someone......the MLOD is already there....

as frostbite said

Quote[/b] ]This tool offers you the possibility to open up a ODOL format addon to learn from it, but also to edit it. So you don't have to ask the auther to send you the unbinarized files (but don't forget to ask for permission to edit it in the first place).

Well thats ok for us, we arent part of the leet_haxor brigade, however, that wont stop others just ripping an addon apart without asking for permission.

Bottom line of my post is, a tool to EDIT others models isnt needed. Im fine with a tool to look at and not edit others models, but, an actual converter is wrong....

Unfortunately this tool cannot be reversed, i hope the makers are bloody proud that they have managed to acomplish some reverse engineering, which is illegal, (we all signed the license agreement), and that in the long term they have damaged the community more than they know.

Welcome to counterstrike.

[denoir 0]

i predict a tidalwave of addons beeing released from now on... and there were allready loads of good, high quality, original addons.

Now what we will see are loads of good addons, that have been 'ripped off' (hopefully  with permission) flooding ofp community even more.

Those who DO make their own stuff, will see their months of work get totally lost in this addon melee.

As I said, when O2 was released to the public a whole tidal wave of dire predictions of how we would only get crappy addons and how people would 'steal' other people's work.

Here are a few quotes from some prominent mod makers (names removed) to illustrate:

i hope they dont [release oxygen], releasing it to a select few is ensuring quality and not heaps of trash where you cant find any good addons because they are released the same time as 30-40 other addons that are just m16 with shiny bit on the barrel, m16 with strange box on top, m16 with funny sphere on the end etc

They should not release it to the public, if they do the mod community is going to hell!!!

And the list goes on and on. Take a look around the forums before and at the time that O2 was released, you'll find endless quotes from modmakers claiming that it will be the end of the community. Well guess what? It was the best thing ever happening to the community. At the time it was dying out and with the public release of O2, it was completely revived.

[Blake 0]

Please...this 'hordes of hell have been now unleashed!' hype is getting a bit over the top. Addon makers beginning to sound like music industry executives.

[Supah 0]

Here here pathy. If you are going to edit and release you will still have to ask permission from the original author who if he says yes wouldnt mind giving you an MLOD most of the time anyway. For learning purposes a save function is unnecesary. So what sort of behaviour do you think this tool supports the most? Luckily most players are not willing to invest the time to actually make something they are more happy asking other people to do it for them.

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

I am uncertain of the legal issues surrounding this release, so will not pass comment on that.

Also, I have never made anything more than a simple model that has been part of another release.

I do however write scripts for addons. Now, I deliberately make these as simple as possible, so that other addon makers can learn from and improve on my original ideas, (I preface each script with a KISS reminder <keep it simple stupid!>). I have however seen many times elements or even the whole scripts used in other addons or missions, without so much as a "thanks TJ" in a PM, let alone a mention in the credits. So if you asked me if the same thing will apply to models, then I would say "yes". Wheels, doors, cockpits etc, they'll all be finding their way into other addons. OK, but that happens already, and I dont think much can be done.

What does bother me though is the shortcut mentality. When I decided to learn how to write scripts for OFP, I didn't read any tutorials as such, but rather took the BIS comref and went through every command. The created a dedicated server and literally hundreds of test missions to learn the way that OFP works in MP, exactly how triggers act, etc etc etc. Because I did it from scratch, I now understand it a LOT better than If I had copy/pasted from somebody else's scripts.

And I can have a sense of pride and acheivement in what I do, knowing that the endless hours of learning are paying off.

Likewise, the best models in OFP have been created by dedicated modellers, who have spent hours of their own time with trial and error, to get things right. I was privileged to watch this process in action, as SelectThis created a new blackhawk model from scratch. Blood sweat amd tears pretty much accurately describes the development process, but the end result was a professional quality model.

<Here Col Klinks concerns are very valid. Quality models for use in game cost $$$>

So it would seem that the incentive now to acheive the modelling proficiency of somebody like Col Klink, or SelectThis is drastically reduced, meaning another overall decline in the skillbase for OFP. We already see a glut of low quality addons, it would be much nicer in this gamers opinion to have fewer addons of a higher standard, which have been created by gamers willing to take the time to acheive a quality product, rather than Shortcut Joe's rehash of another model.

And that is why I think, that ODOL Explorer should have been just that. Not ODOL converter.

I wonder now, given the points that Col Klink raised, whether BIS will introduce a new format for future upcoming products, and if so, whether that would delay the release. It would be nice to hear an official point of view.

TJ

I myself didn't start from scratch with modeling. I opened up an excisting addon and looked at every little detail. Than I looked at the addon ingame and looked at every little detail again. After a LOT of time and a LOT of addons I finally got a bisec understanding of how things worked. This is reverse-engineering, I know. But it's the only way how to learn things, since tutorials are very basis and won't teach you anything.

Because of all this work I now know how most things are done (on vehicles and weapons) and are able to create addons myself from scratch.

I worked as a 3DCAD-engineer for half a year, so I know how difficult it is to actually come up with something good. I designed quite a few things that are now being produced (I mainly designed the outer shell of wind-mills). I know as good as the dedicated addonmakers how much time goes into a good model and how many times you change it after you think it's almost done. It took me two months to come up with a solid design for an exhaust on a windmill and another three to get the model right.

I have looked at plenty of models and reverse-engineered them and sometimes I changed a few thing to see how it worked. But it never even crossed my mind to change a thing or two and than release it as my own. I did a few copy-paste things for personal use, but I believe most of us have and I don't see the problem here.

So I somewhat need to agree with what TJ said, but I think we need to have trust in the cummunity. If people will start creatign these pseudo-addons they will be found and eventually they will leave. I think this is only a natural selection and evolution of our community, but I thought we already reached a point at which we respect what other people do and don't fuck eachother (which is a nasty sight anyway since we are all male).

Perhaps it was indeed better is this was not a converter. People who want to use parts of addons can allways kindly ask the maker. But the door was already open for the people who searched a little. This tool only shows the door to everyone to see it. But seeing the door of the hacking and stealing cumminty and looking through it does not mean you have to step through it and I don't think a lot will.

Quote[/b] ]Please...this 'hordes of hell have been now unleashed!' hype is getting a bit over the top. Addon makers beginning to sound like music industry executives.

hehe, good one.

My last post in this idiotic thread. For the sake of everyone; please close it. It won't be long until people will really start a fight and the thread has been off-topic since page one.

FrostBite out!

[T J 0]

For your list of "Crappy addons", just go to ADDONs & MODS complete.

Those that are actually worth downloading and keeping and that have made a difference to the community (FDF, CSLA, WGL, BAS, DKM etc etc) are few and far between.

The consumerism ideal of "Instant Gratification" just came to OFP. Maximum gain for minimal effort.

Is that good?

TJ

[Gen.Carnage 0]

frostbite: you feel the need to flame bait over what i said i feel about the fact of this tool release. Do i distrust the whole community? no, and if you read carefully i never said it, im simply pointing out that the odd rotten apple will have the means to spoil it for all the good ones now.

your personal attack on my statement is totally uncalled for and ineffective.

But then again, i am stupid to simply put to words what i think and feel in this hypercritical community as you so blatantly demonstrate.

So, sorry for rubbing your hairs the wrong way by saying what i think, i'll stop it now and not say what i think about your reaction.

[Blake 0]

What the fuzz about models anyway? They are 100 times more easier to make than quality textures. Textures have been available for 3 years now for anyone to open, edit, use and steal. Yet we have not witnessed any large scale texture exploiting cartel emerging.

But now...we will have a hordes of 12-year-olds ripping models and releasing them as their own...Sorry but I'm not buying that theory.

[waffendennis 0]

people:

Still you cant use it to make new addons from it cause:

There are some bugs wich make it imposible.

[colonel_klink 0]

I think what may happen is that some mods will not release any of their addons until the mod is completed.

Personally I don't have a problem with people opening my own CWK released addons, as long as they get my permission before releasing them and appropriate recognition is given. However I would deem it inappropriate for people to seek permission to convert and release addons made for the Falklands Mod, as those are all betas and not the final release.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this tool being released, someone sooner or later would have made one and released it anyway. Look at some of the other games out there, quite a few have tools that can open and save their models. Milkshape, 3D Exploration are two commercial tools that come to mind. There are also tools that can reverse engineer CFS2/3 models as well. To be paranoid over this will in the end be detrimental to the community, and rather than have good quality addons there will be none as people will be suspicious of people downloading their creation to open up and change rather than use in OFP.

BIS have kindly released a lot of their addons and apart from the odd animated bit here and there community made addons still use the basics that BIS had provided.

If I remember the Binarize tool was released primarily to reduce addon file size, which most would agree even some Binarized addon packs are weighty beasts.

BIS Breathe Download Page:

Quote[/b] ]You can use Binarize tool to optimize your Operation Flashpoint addons.

If BIS hadn't been concerned with that we would still have MLOD as the only release format.

So there it is. Do we continue in a state of suspicion and paranoia or just get on with making and releasing addons?

I guess it will be an individual call, as for me, it's business as usual.

[Pathy 0]

Certainly not

This is, to my mind, the one tool too far.....

to repeat my point again, even if there would only be ONE person ripping apart models and passing them as thier own, its one person too many, it doesnt have to be hoards....but as long as people have this tool, they wont need to ask for permission.

Supah summed it up nicely.

Quote[/b] ]Here here pathy. If you are going to edit and release you will still have to ask permission from the original author who if he says yes wouldnt mind giving you an MLOD most of the time anyway. For learning purposes a save function is unnecesary. So what sort of behaviour do you think this tool supports the most? Luckily most players are not willing to invest the time to actually make something they are more happy asking other people to do it for them.

If your going to edit a model, you should get the authors permission anyway....so what would be so hard as not having a converter and just asking for the MLOD?.....you have to email them anyway....so all this tool is doing is making it not compulsory to contact the original addon maker anyway.

Oh and blake, as a modeller AND texturer, i'd say that they are equal difficulty, textures arent hard once you know what your doing, just like models......unfortunately less people want to spend the time to learn to texture than they do to model....

anyway, im off to open up Earls M4's, move a vertice and release them as my own

[colonel_klink 0]

Quote[/b] ]anyway, im off to open up Earls M4's, move a vertice and release them as my own  

There ya go  

We've finally come round full circle, thats exactly how the first pre O2 Huey was made

[SelectThis 0]

This discussion relates to the gun debate - ie is it the gun which kills or the person who pulls the trigger? That debate has raged on and on with no definite answer.

The tool is already released, so it should now be up to the community to police how the tool is used. Just editing and giving credit is not enough, ask the maker's permission to edit their model and respect their answer if it is a "no".

Condemn those that ripoff other people's hard work without permission.

SelectThis

[EiZei 0]

If your going to edit a model, you should get the authors

permission anyway....so what would be so hard as not having a converter and just asking for the MLOD?.....you have to email them anyway....so all this tool is doing is making it not compulsory to contact the original addon maker anyway.

What if the original files are lost or the addonmaker cannot be contacted for some reason?

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

let's all love eachother, ok?

[Noon416 (OFPEC) 0]

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling! We're all doomed!"

:rolls eyes:

Come on people, how about we all grow up and realise *nothing* has changed, and nothing will.

Just like last time, and the time before that, and the time before that, ad nauseam...

As denoir so pointedly stated, we went through this with O2, and I would have thought people would have learned from that time.

I've seen many addonmakers today state (directly or implied) "I used tools like this in the beginning to crack open models and that was fine to learn ... but new addonmakers shouldn't be allowed to do the same, they *have to ask me* first".

Its good to see those addonmakers still aspiring to such community-focussed ideals. And they wonder why they get backlash from the community in general, seems pretty damned obvious to me.

Thankfully, the majority of our community see this all for what it is ... "A storm in a teacup".

[MSpencer 0]

You all know that this can be looked at in two ways.

One of them is "Damn this is good", because now all those prude mods who won't share their models can say "f**k it", and give you permission to mod them.

Or you can look on it as I do, as an addon producer, and this scares the living christ out of you. Something like this totally negates your model protection. You made a model, or optimized a model, nobody should have it except you and your team.

Take for example the BAS Blackhawks. Now I know Extraction wouldn't do this, but let's say he asked for your permission to use it for his SeaHawks. All of BAS says no, and yells at him. Of course, now he has his ace of spades to put out. It's free license, so if he can model it, which he can do with ODOL Explorer, then he can just release a reworked blackhawk, and nobody can do anything about it. Of course who cares. The community was created free, it should stay free.

I have no problem with this tool. In fact I interpret it as an honor that someone would take my model and mod it to fit their own uses, but if they released it without my permission, believe me, that's beyond the line.

[Pappy Boyington 0]

yall act like this is the first mlod converter. hell ive known people with an mlod converter for several months now. i myself had several models unbinerized for personal use. no offense to the creator but this aint nothin new. the only difference is, that instead of asking a freind of a freind of a freind to convert your model. you can do it yourself now. and althou im not supporting the ripping off of any addons. . . but awhile back dkm made that adats tank. . . someone riped off the base and turned it into a howitzer. up until ua that was the best got damn howizter ofp had to over. stolen model/textures or not mabe sometimes all the model needs is a lil tweak.

personaly i say give credit where credit is due. but ask first at least.

besides ofp2 is merely months away. early 05 latest (so they say) the second it hits the shelves ofp resistance will be dead and gone. the community moved on to ofp2. so sometimes we dont have the luxery of waiting around 5 6 sometime 7 months for mr modeler to get back to you. or worse play word games via email "oo well you can use my model but you cant change this this this or this and dont change that the only thing u can change is the face at 23x and 47y otehr then that dont change anything" and it gets to the point where u say fuck it and dont release it at all.

ppl get pissed off at cs converts. i think cs converts are the best. they take little time. little effort. and released like that . bam here done gone. new weapon beautiful as ever. sure making your own weapn gets u more credit and satisfaction and all that. blah blah. but its needs, wants, and deadlines that matter.

all im sayin is. if someone rips off an addon. . . then dont download it. but if that addon is something we need. then im most likly gonna download it and use it. im not for stealing. i am agasint the unathorized use of someones models.

ripping off an addon is like making another m4 addon. everyone will hate you for it. but somewhere out there is someone that realizes it has just the perfect tweak that they needed.

[JGreyNemo 0]

This is a very good tool.

People need to remember that once you release something into the general public, you the creator, for the most part, have not much say about what happens. I've studied art for about 5 years now, and it's much the same. Some people will buy your art to put in corporate galleries, when the artist themselves is against big business and corporations. That's just life. Life isn't fair, and never will be.

If you don't like people messing with your models, don't release them. This is a community and contributing to it means that you give a piece of yourself out there, for everyone, good or bad to use and share.

Deal with the fact that once something is in circulation, you have little or no control to what happens to it. Hackers will always be there, and software/addons were always a particularly vulnerable medium for this sort of thing. It's the harsh reality and hiding behind the doors of flimsy encryption and "license bashing" much like the RIAA does, will only create further alienation and destruction to a very good community as a whole.

The ODLOD cat is out of the bag. Deal with it. You can't do anything anymore other than not release your addons and horde them to yourself away from the EVIL ofp community...

So let's move on from this and all evolve to a higher level of gaming shall we? OFP is a great game and this is the wakeup call to all addon makers, both experienced and non-experienced to get out there and contribute

[Pathy 0]

If your going to edit a model, you should get the authors

permission anyway....so what would be so hard as not having a converter and just asking for the MLOD?.....you have to email them anyway....so all this tool is doing is making it not compulsory to contact the original addon maker anyway.

What if the original files are lost or the addonmaker cannot be contacted for some reason?

Ok well in that case, HYK hasnt been responding to any emails i send him asking him for permission to edit his 1985 units. So shall i assume hes gone away and rip his models off anyway??

Nope, i will have to make my own....the hard way, but the right way, if the addon maker says no or cant be contacted.

[miles teg 1]

For your list of "Crappy addons", just go to ADDONs & MODS complete.

Those that are actually worth downloading and keeping and that have made a difference to the community (FDF, CSLA, WGL, BAS, DKM etc etc) are few and far between.

The consumerism ideal of "Instant Gratification" just came to OFP. Maximum gain for minimal effort.

Is that good?

TJ

TJ, while I respect your talents IMMENSELY and you're a cool bud, I have to disagree. You my friend, are VERY talented. The rate that you learned scripting stuff and mission editing for example FAR exceeded anything I was ever able to do. Remember on the NG I used to comment that you should be be studying computer programming or some kind of engineering field or something with your talent.

I still have not been able to figure out how scripts work due to some of the mathematical/computer programming aspects of scripting that I just don't have the background for.

I also don't have the time to learn it nor to learn all of the ins and outs of Oxygen. Plus if something is already made and its wonderful, its a waste of time to reinvent the wheel when I can simply just ask permission from the addon maker to modify it (and give them credit for it) because I loved their work.

Those newbie addon makers with more talent and time then myself however will probably use this tool as a tool to learn how addon making is done, but will they be satisfied with just modifying what's already out there or will they try to make new models? I think think many of them will have the energy, talent, and motivation to make new models of things that have not been made in OFP yet.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[T J 0]

Excellent post STT, and as one of the communities foremost modeller, one which we all should respect.

Which reinforces that there should be contact between would be editor and original modeller PRIOR to the model being edited.

And if the answer is "Sorry, No.", then that should eb the end of the matter, no matter how badly the would be editor wants the model.

Of course, if the answer was "Yes, sure!", there would be no need to use a 3rd party app to convert ODOL to MLOD, as the modeller could provide the MLOD.

if the original modeller cannot be contacted for whatever reason, then that should be the end of it, no further debates needed.

So the puck lies firmly at the feet of the WRPtool team. This release version seems buggy. Surely you can see for yourselves that if you decide to 'fix' that, and release again, the release should be without the option to save to MLOD.

That way, all that you say the tool is for is possible, and illegitimate useage is limited.

I for one will be very interested to see how your personal ethics are reflected by your actions.

TJ

[T J 0]

Those newbie addon makers with more talent and time then myself however will probably use this tool as a tool to learn how addon making is done, but will they be satisfied with just modifying what's already out there or will they try to make new models?  I think think many of them will have the energy, talent, and motivation to make new models of things that have not been made in OFP yet.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Well, I see no reason why they cannot learn from the MLOD models that came with the demo, the same as everybody else.

There is a wide variety of vehicles and units in that demo, and everything needed to discover how things work is there.

In fact, they are probably BETTER for learning from.

I see you would like the model for the MD500, that should be no problem at all, get in touch with Deadmeat via PM and he will be able to hook you up.

TJ

[JGreyNemo 0]

The trouble with the Demo models was that they're pre-resistance.  Now with this tool we can at least see what's going on on the resistance side of things.

I'm beginning to see a trend of people telling OFP toolmakers to downgrade their programs by OFP addonmaker elites.  It happened to Amalfi with PBO decryptor 1.3 and now it's happening to the WRP team, while everyone in the community knows certain addon makers have had acess to ODLOD decryptors for a while. I say the WRP team is allowed to release this tool as it sees fit. Only paranoid addon makers see this as some vicious tool to destroy their work. What is wrong with improved addons in the first place? Credit will always fall in the right place in the end, as the community is self moderating, people can easily distinguish the difference between a completely new model and one that's been ripped from someone else's hard work. Don't treat the end-users of addons like idiots. People are savvy with determining where credit is due. So you have absolutely NO RIGHT to lean on the WRP team to change anything.

This attitude within the thread isn't very constructive.  The more open source OFP is the better.  If BIS had the same attitude as some addon makers in this forum, there would be no such thing as addons in the first place now would there?  

[Stag 0]

Downloaded, opened up a .p3d, and answered in seconds a question that has been plaguing me for months.

I wouldn't worry about piracy; I'm sure the Addon Gestapo will be right on the ball.