ODOL Explorer v2.0

[Trenchfeet 0]

How about this scenario, I think this could justify the use of the tool? (And proberly one of the very few)

Say this guy i may know made lots of "high quality addons" but has a problem and lost all his work (and left), but the only way he could get it back was to download his own addons and then De-pbo them and then UnBin them.

And at the same time when he left he gave someone else permission to edit his files. But because he didn't have them anymore he couldn't send them.

Without a certain "tool" a certain addon would never have been made

my 2 cents

whatever i was going to say has alredy been mentioned execpt for the above

[Gen.Carnage 0]

the recurring use of the word 'elitist' alone is enogh to make one worry.

It is allmost as if there is a score to settle, 'those damn elitist addonmakers, how dare they give us free addons and not let us screw around with those' kind of feeling i'm getting here.

The save option in the tool makes it simply too easy to steal, and my personal opinion is that it was unthoughtful, to say the least, to build it in.

bottom line: learn, but dont use!, show some respect by not stealing.

If you desperately feel the need to modify a model, ASK PERMISSION, and dont assume you got it when you get no immediate reply.

Some thing that also happened a few times in the old MLDO time: people came to me and said 'listen, i have reskinned and remodelled your addon, im ready to release, do i get permission?' <- that's stupid, you might get a 'no' as an answer for some very valid reason.

[Crowley 0]

the recurring use of the word 'elitist' alone is enogh to make one worry.

It is allmost as if there is a score to settle, 'those damn elitist addonmakers, how dare they give us free addons and not let us screw around with those' kind of feeling i'm getting here.

The save option in the tool makes it simply too easy to steal, and my personal opinion is that it was unthoughtful, to say the least, to build it in.

bottom line: learn, but dont use!, show some respect by not stealing.

If you desperately feel the need to modify a model, ASK PERMISSION, and dont assume you got it when you get no immediate reply.

Some thing that also happened a few times in the old MLDO time: people came to me and said 'listen, i have reskinned and remodelled your addon, im ready to release, do i get permission?' <- that's stupid, you might get a 'no' as an answer for some very valid reason.

That has been the point all along by those not opposed to ODOL explorer. It's been a few mod makers talking as if they have a score to settle that have kept the hostilities going.

[Pathy 0]

Yes i am getting the same vibe, its like a year of built up revenge coming all at once.

Shadow, sorry, didnt see that in your post, musta missed that line (ever heard of selective reading? )

Hater, try reading the license agreement.....

To clarify to you, its not the act of editing a BIS model, its the act of reverse engineering it (ODOL to MLOD), while the tool is not illegal, the act of using it on BIS models is. If you are in doubt, Suma himself posted on the issue in the P3dedit topic awhile back. And as OFP's lead programmer he should know whether reverse engineering BIS models is allowed or not.

Please get your facts straight before going on a rant, ok mate

And once again, i do not see how a save button allows more learning. You can still see no more than without a save function, and at the end of the day, tutes are still way better, as they explain HOW to do something, not just that something was done....

[EiZei 0]

To clarify to you, its not the act of editing a BIS model, its the act of reverse engineering it (ODOL to MLOD), while the tool is not illegal, the act of using it on BIS models is.

Err, what law? EULAs are not gods word you know.

[Gen.Carnage 0]

on top of that, some people are behaving as if they have a RIGHT to open up and modify the work we addonmakers did.

NO-ONE has that right!, if anyone has a RIGHT to open addons it is BIS people, because the addons are *addons* to thier hard work.

It is this mentality that is most unsettling, and above all discouraging to go on.

Need help? simply ask and you'll get it.

[bn880 5]

The story is simple, if there is a problem BIS will issue a letter to the makers of the explorer. This is just a lot of bickering. If you do not want people to ever open your models, keep them for your self. That's the only sure way.

I've had scripts I didn't want people to open, so I never release them, that's simple isn't it. Same deal.

[Pathy 0]

If you doubt the legal issues behind this, read from here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=135

I am not actually anti people learning from any models i make, not that there would be alot to learn What i am anti is people being able to edit my model without having to get permissions 1st. When you had the ODOL explorer without the save function, people HAD to email you for the MLODs, but now, there is no incentive to email, and nothing to make people therefore get permission.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Models has been stolen in the past.

And you know what?

Everytime a picture or the addon itself was shown/released, 5minutes later it was found out, that it was stolen.

And no one is using Addons based on a stolen model in a mission or whatever.

Talking about "The end of the community.." is nonsens.

MfG Lee

[Acecombat 0]

If you doubt the legal issues behind this, read from here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=135

I am not actually anti people learning from any models i make, not that there would be alot to learn   What i am anti is people being able to edit my model without having to get permissions 1st. When you had the ODOL explorer without the save function, people HAD to email you for the MLODs, but now, there is no incentive to email, and nothing to make people therefore get permission.

Easy there pathy mate calm down , no one whos teals your model will be able to make money or anything out of it so whats the big deal , besides with the tight knit place we have here i doubt if any person would get away with a stolen stuff.

AND BESIDES what the HECK would anyone steal ?

I mean ok theres those cool looking uber fantastic BAS BH's so what if ODOL explorer is here , would anyone go and change just one LOD and face and re-release it?

No one is going to steal your whole mods,guns and the likes and edit one thing and RELEASE it , please talk sense here.

I dont know what the heck you guys are making a ruckus here for , its only models FFS , and the whole thing belongs to BIS anyway if you all care so much about your models then dont bother releasing them , just keep em to yourself and be happy end of story.

[bn880 5]

If you doubt the legal issues behind this, read from here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=135

I am not actually anti people learning from any models i make, not that there would be alot to learn What i am anti is people being able to edit my model without having to get permissions 1st. When you had the ODOL explorer without the save function, people HAD to email you for the MLODs, but now, there is no incentive to email, and nothing to make people therefore get permission.

If there is a problem BIS will issue a letter to the makers. period

I do not see ANY point against this tool as being valid. If you were making models for the military or some other organization then you may need to protect somehting. here everything is released to anyone, no need for any protection. How can you even expect protection on it. Is there some national military secret in the models? Some special bearing design, or rotor blade structure that is secret? What then, what's wrong with having people play around with the models.

[denoir 0]

If you doubt the legal issues behind this, read from here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=135

Yeah, why don't we read it:

Quote[/b] ]secret to opening ODOL format is good old-fashioned reverse engineering the game executable.

... and you are really proud to talk about such breeching of the license agreement you have with Codemasters in public?

Reverse engineering is strongly discouraged and certainly not supported by us.

As you can see, he is talking about reverse-engneering the game executable, something that BIS doesn't like for obvious purposes. He's not talking about an MLOD->ODOL converter or about using BIS addons for the basis for new addons.

Anyway bottom line: learn to live with it. It's a fact that it is doable now and no whining in the world will help you. If you are contemplating to quit making addons over this, then you probably should. The goal for everybody making addons should be making OFP better. Period. If you have a different agenda then the community is probably better without you in the long run. We need to be open and cooperate. We do not need to hide and compete.

[cassandra 0]

wow, I read some of the comments here and it seems the hungry dog gaurding its food is an understatement.. all I see is baseless paranoia for yet another tool that adds to this world of editing here, you'd all be screwed if o2 was never released, usually costs alot of money to get yourself a decent modelling program.. perhaps o2 shouldn't have had a save function.. now does that sound stupid or what?

I swear, if any of you think your shit is that good then go and make a living from it and if people buy your shit, then who's to argue your shit is worth shit?

there's so much stupid testosterone inspired pride drivel here it's making me sick.. I can tell you now that no addon I have ever downloaded is worth anything at all and I don't care who made it, and I would go as far as to say they are all totally crap with or without the game - infact I had alot of respect for some of you that's just bottomed out, meaning every time I see your name somewhere on some addon or any other place I'll probably be reminded what a stuck up moron that person is for trying to hold stupid ideals precious to themselves to great extents for the benifit of their very own selves

where's the fun gone? the learning? the sharing?

[Acecombat 0]

I agree with cassandra and denoir

Most of the talk here is baseless as its only springing from peoples personals problems over others using their made models which in their opinion are NOT to be touched as they somehow are un-usually priceless or something

[bn880 5]

I agree with cassandra and denoir

Most of the talk here is baseless as its only springing from peoples personals problems over others using their made models which in their opinion are NOT to be touched as they somehow are un-usually priceless or something

But you disagree with me?

[bn880 5]

where's the fun gone? the learning? the sharing?

I've been busy.

j/k

[Acecombat 0]

I agree with cassandra and denoir  

Most of the talk here is baseless as its only springing from peoples personals problems over others using their made models which in their opinion are NOT to be touched as they somehow are un-usually priceless or something  

But you disagree with me?  

No you too i must have missed your post

[walker 0]

Hi all

@pathy

The only way any one could steal anyones work is if they could obscure the original source. Follishly some people who may in the past have stolen others work might have binarised or if they had the knowledge encypted them.

I seriously doubt the latter as all such addons would have to go through an in game decripter thus making them slow and negating the encription anyway.

The release of this tool means they can no longer hide their theft.

I should point out that any of several Mod teams have had tools to binarise and de binarise and view files for some time. Most of those who had such tools kept them back because of MP cheating fears.

As we allready know BIS allready adressed those fears in the latest beta. So several other tools will be available in the near future.

Pathy the only protection that protects your work is international Law. That is part of the reason why we at the CoC got to together as a MOD to ensure our IP rights are protected. It costs maybe 50 Uk pounds to just have our solicitor start a case against a thief after that all costs are on the theif as long as we can prove the theft which if they have stolen it we can prove in an instant.

Here is some advice I gave several Modding teams two years back it is simple to store a security ID mark invisibly in your models by making one or more microscopic additions to the model. Many mods now do this and it would take centuaries to find them; if you did not know where to look. In order to find it a thief has to search through every inch of every LOD at the highest zoom to find it.

With textures there are tools to add such code to the dithering pattern or just hidden in a slight colour change.

Scripts are the hardest to protect but they can be protected by a simple variable loop that the thief would never be able to know the purpose of. The sheer complexity of the scripts we use at the CoC makes such copying harder than building from the ground up.

But all this pales into insignificance beside the simple fact that all original work is protected by international copyright law and that those laws are the strongest international laws there are having been tested and refined by the best legal minds in the world for the past 100 years; what do you think the likes of EMI, Time Warner, the IPA BBC and all the other content creators do?

Add to that in this community we have had maybe 2 or 3 cases in the whole time we have been here all of them caught.

What work have you done pathy that you think others will steal?

Kind Regards Walker

[miles teg 1]

Well I don't agree with Cassandra.  Anything with hours of labor and love invested in it IS worth something to the person who made it despite the fact that you think it's all crap.

The answer however is simple...SHOW RESPECT to those who made the original addon.  

It's not rocket science.  Just send off your little email asking for permission to use the addon.  If they say no, then usually there's always someone else making a similar addon that would probably help.  But I have yet to have been told no by any addon maker simply because I show them respect for their work.

As someone noted before, it was still possible before this tool to convert the ODOL format into MLOD.  The prior tool however was not released widely because of fears of "abuse".  This was the same fear with Oxygen.  

I don't agree with Pathy when he says that "one stolen addon is one stolen addon too much".  Early on we had addon makers stealing alot of stuff from others and the OFP community soundly thrashed them in the forums until they learned from their mistakes and stopped using other people's work without asking them.  Peer pressure WORKED.  But because those handful of incidents happened, should Oxygen not have been released to the public?   If so then we would only have a small handful off addons and not the HUGE range of wonderful addons that we see today for OFP, many of which truly push the boundaries of the OFP game engine.

The fact of the matter is that the tool is out and it would be EXTREMELY difficult for BIS to control its usage because even if they sued the developer, thousands of addonmakers have it, and are using it.

BIS could release a new binarizing program, but eventually someone would hack it.  Also as someone else mentined, INQ already knows how to encrypt his addons, so if anyone REEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY doesn't want anyone messing with their addons, simply contact him for info on encrypting their addons. Either that or they could simply stop releasing addons.

Simple as that.  

For those of you who truly believe that an addon maker must "pay their dues" and learn all the ins and outs of addon making rather then just copying other people's hard work, then you guys need to understand that many of us just DO NOT HAVE THE TIME in our busy lives to devote ourselves to the study and mastery of Oxygen.  We just want to make cool addons for a specific country and if that addon is already made by someone else and it kicks ass, then we just want to ask permission to use it, modify it a bit, give credit where credit is due, and make a wonderful modified version of that addon for that specific country or mod.  

To say that we don't have the right because we won't devote ourselves to the study of Oxygen, scripting, texturing, ect... is very insulting as some of you guys have NO idea what kind of schedules we have in real life.  If your own schedule is incredibly busy, not all of us have the same levels of motivation or energy to do a million different things in a day.

In other words we are not all blessed with a super work ethic and I get a little pissed off whens someone demands that I be like them when it simply is beyond my physical and mental ability to do so.

Also many of us are not as ARTISTICALLY gifted.  This is VERY VERY important.  Many of us will simply NEVER attain the same addon making skills because we lack the talent.

Thats one BIG reason why many of us editing addons need to depend on other people's work to get started at least.

So these are the core reasons why this tool IS very important to many of us as I'm trying to explain it from the view of someone who will be using this tool quite a bit.

The main thing to use however is RESPECT.  If none is given then I will join the addonmaker who's work is used without their permission and encourage the community to really thrash that individual in all of the forums until they repent from that kind of behavior.  This was highly effective against individuals in the past, who now are behaving and have regained most of their respect back in the OFP community.

So lets just chill and be respectful to each other and work as a community just as we always have (usually).

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[DKM Jaguar 0]

wow, I read some of the comments here and it seems the hungry dog gaurding its food is an understatement.. all I see is baseless paranoia for yet another tool that adds to this world of editing here, you'd all be screwed if o2 was never released, usually costs alot of money to get yourself a decent modelling program.. perhaps o2 shouldn't have had a save function.. now does that sound stupid or what?

I swear, if any of you think your shit is that good then go and make a living from it and if people buy your shit, then who's to argue your shit is worth shit?

there's so much stupid testosterone inspired pride drivel here it's making me sick.. I can tell you now that no addon I have ever downloaded is worth anything at all and I don't care who made it, and I would go as far as to say they are all totally crap with or without the game - infact I had alot of respect for some of you that's just bottomed out, meaning every time I see your name somewhere on some addon or any other place I'll probably be reminded what a stuck up moron that person is for trying to hold stupid ideals precious to themselves to great extents for the benifit of their very own selves

where's the fun gone? the learning? the sharing?

Miles teg basically said what I originally meant..but I'll leave mine here anyway.

This isn't about pride, it's about people rding the back of others' sucesses by taking apart thier work, changing it with some small details and then putting together an addon which they didn't really make. All the credit none of the effort. How does the OFP community get any better from this? Well..

It will have:

A) shitloads of mediocre addons which look and play like many others (all based on the single "donor" addon which was edited)

B) confusion as to who has the skill to make thier own addons well and who has the (lack of) morality to take credit for other peoples' hard work

Sure, we could leave it to them to credit the orignal maker, but you can't trust people in the community it seems.

C) addon makers giving up with thier hard work being diminished by people re-releasing thier stuff with a few changes.

Quote[/b] ] would go as far as to say they are all totally crap with or without the game

To someone who hadn't made addons, i would say "you do better" but then whats the point, when whatever they make will be the product of other peoples' work anyway. Doing better WITHOUT the use of a tool which enables a user to scrounge off other addon makers, now there's something to respect.

And here's something: someone releases an addon as thier first, but it's not too great. (at least they tried though).

Someone uses this tool to work further on thier addon and does a brilliant job. Sure, the community benefits, but how is the original maker going to feel when someone shows them up?

and don't pretend we won't see players saying "OMG this is 1000000x better than the original, which sucked compartively, OMG that guy should give up as we don't need him when we got this"

So who wins? Community 1 Addon maker 0

..and it's the addon makers who are competitive?

Quote[/b] ]I'll probably be reminded what a stuck up moron that person is for trying to hold stupid ideals precious to themselves to great extents for the benifit of their very own selves

You know me, Mr stuck-up moron.  

[Shadow NX 1]

Hmm to throw in my 2 cents here...

When i saw this tool released my first though was damn, exactly because of the mentioned addon thiving and other problems.

Now after some thinking i dont really care about the tool, its out, it has the save function the endless discussion leads to nowhere only causes bad blood atm.

And there are a lot others who give a damn according to soem answers i read here in various threads were addons were released using parts of others without permission, back then i often heard answers like "i dont care a bit all i want is the addon" ( not the exact sentence but that was the meaning ).

But to explain... there are people who give a damn about copyright, seen lot of others vehicles like Sigmas tanks, reskinned soldiers used by some mod i dont wanna name and noone every was asked for permission.

I think most mods dont really have a prob to allow people to modifiy their stuff but they want to be informed at least, as example CSLA, they asked if they could use the T55 pack and T-72s RHS made and they received them for their mods and could modify them to their needs.

Same with FDF and if we need something from them we ask and most time we get what we need.

Maybe i would love to use some parts of AKM/DKMs APC pack but if they dont give their ok then hell i have to make it myself.

Another example is i asked suchey if we could modify his Marines, maybe we invest a lot of work in it and the before were finished someone might release the same thing and a lot of time would be wasted, before the tool we could a t least plan a lil bit, but hell whining leads to nowhere

[miles teg 1]

That's a good point DKM Jaguar, but for me its not a matter of "one-up'ing" another addon maker's work.   I'm not editing other people's addons to try and "out do them".  I'm doing it because I LOVE their work and I simply want to modify it a bit to fit a specific country or perhaps to add a few features to it.  I did this to Adammo's C130 with his permission and consultation and he was very supportive of me so we have a great relationship.  

It really isn't a problem as long as RESPECT is given to the original addon maker.

This shouldn't be about being competitive and the fear of mass of mediocre addons has not happened because to be quite honest, the addons that many people regard as "mediocre" addons I regard as AMAZING addons.  Some people for example have criticized Footmunch for creating boring addons without tons of features or hyper-realistic textures like the BAS stuff.  But I like Footmunch's addons becuase most of them are solid, simple, look decent, and work.

Plus he leaves them in MLOD format for others to work off of.

He also has been a great mentor to me and like Adammo, I have a good relationship with him.

So... I love DKM's addons but there is no way I would use any of your team's addons without permission and if your team said, no, then I would just find some other addon to work on and have fun with... then maybe a year or two down the road, my skills will have progressed to the point where I can make my own addons from scratch.

But if addon makers want to quit because of this, then they should quit.  But if people like myself, ask them very nicely for permission, and ask them for advice with the respect given to a teacher or colleague, then I think most addon makers will not have a big problem.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Tactician 0]

The fact of the matter is that the tool is out and it would be EXTREMELY difficult for BIS to control its usage because even if they sued the developer, thousands of addonmakers have it, and are using it.

BIS could release a new binarizing program, but eventually someone would hack it.

I thought we established that binarize is an optimization and not encryption? I'm pretty sure it still works.

[miles teg 1]

The fact of the matter is that the tool is out and it would be EXTREMELY difficult for BIS to control its usage because even if they sued the developer, thousands of addonmakers have it, and are using it.

BIS could release a new binarizing program, but eventually someone would hack it.

I thought we established that binarize is an optimization and not encryption?  I'm pretty sure it still works.

Yes I am aware that Binarize is not an encryption program, however it pretty much serves the same function even if it wasn't specifically designed to be an encryption program.

It served the purpose of keeping people like myself from easily de-PBO'ing other people's addons and getting access to their .p3d models. Sure there were ways around this but they required a lot of effort, or you had to join the .p3d edit secret society after having proved yourself worthy.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Pathy 0]

If you doubt the legal issues behind this, read from here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=135

Yeah, why don't we read it:

Quote[/b] ]secret to opening ODOL format is good old-fashioned reverse engineering the game executable.

... and you are really proud to talk about such breeching of the license agreement you have with Codemasters in public?

Reverse engineering is strongly discouraged and certainly not supported by us.

As you can see, he is talking about reverse-engneering the game executable, something that BIS doesn't like for obvious purposes. He's not talking about an MLOD->ODOL converter or about using BIS addons for the basis for new addons.

Anyway bottom line: learn to live with it. It's a fact that it is doable now and no whining in the world will help you. If you are contemplating to quit making addons over this, then you probably should. The goal for everybody making addons should be making OFP better. Period. If you have a different agenda then the community is probably better without you in the long run. We need to be open and cooperate. We do not need to hide and compete.

Denior, dont read selectively. Over the page, the legal issue is stated as a whole. Thats why i said READ FROM HERE. And the topic was P3D edit (ie, P3D's), not reverse engineering .exe files....try reading the whole thing before commenting please.

The legal issue doesnt actually bother me, thats between you and BIS, and its up to BIS to decide thier own stance, i was just pointing it out, before you decided a flame post was in order. Denoir, its hard to find a post youve made to anyone that isnt personal and provocative. Please, i dont target you personally (except now, but thats as a responce ), so why do you always make things personal

And as i stated before, and you didnt bother to read my post, i am not anti learning or anti community, sharing and caring and all that. The issue is protecting the quality of addons currently being produced by the community. If i believed that this tool would improve quality then i would be all for it, however, i do not believe the points that point to an increase in quality outwiegh the points against.

Now ace, you are right, i dont expect anyone to rip anything ive made off, im just not that good. But for the sake of others, isnt it better to have a system that enforces permission being requested? (otherwise they dont get sent the MLOD). I never said (this is to all those people who think i did somehow) that i was worried about being stolen off, i just think its all addon makers right to know whats going on with THIER work.

I dont know, there are a few people who cant accept there is ZERO learning value from adding a save option. Anything you learnt from this tool could have been learned off a previous version without the save option. And even then, all the tool does is show thats somethings been done, not how it was done.....a tute describing HOW to do it is way better, and there are plently of tutes already about.....

Proud to be a stuck up moron....

Pathy...

Oh and please read my whole post, i get the impression people are only reading the bits that make them angry and not the other side...