ODOL Explorer v2.0

[Sigma-6 29]

If people are going to quit the community over not being able to use a a tool that was intended to optimize their work to stop other people from being able to edit/learn from it, then I for one would not shed a tear to see them go.

I can tell who made what, and I know that the OFP community can tell if something is ripped off. This has happened before, and in every case I can remember, the thief has been cashiered out of the community. ODOL Explorer has not, and will not change a thing, and again, if people are going to leave this community over it, I'll personally hold the door open for them.

As for the Infantry error, Miles; all you have to do is make sure the troop is in the dead center of O2's axis. you have to make sure the model is centred or the anims mess everything up. A good way to make sure the model is centred is to use cut/pastes from a working MLOD model as a guide, and you have to do this with all the LODs.

[remcen 0]

i'm afraid some people in the community reveal more of their personality as they actually want.

what about the "everything was better before odol explorer was released"-argument? contrary to what they said, some lucky mods (and noone should blame them for taking the opportunities they had, though) had a tool to convert odol to mlod, so it only

creates equality among addon makers and mods now (as stated above by others).

of course it's a mighty tool that requires a lot of responsibility,

but 1. theft cant be avoided, 2. if someone wants to protect his stuff entirely he should keep it 3. abusers will be quickly identified in this small community, as they always have been.

noobs normally only appear in the comments-sections of the news sites, because its so damn easy to bash on someone without having any other 'skills'.

BAS (and others) obviously had such a tool, otherwise the uazs, the mi8, the urals and the brdms wouldn't have been possible as they are. But these units weren't masterpieces, their helis and the deltas/rangers and tonal were; the uazs , brdm rather were nice gimmicks that - i concede - fit perfectly in the tonal-scenario, of course. that's the way, the converter

should ideally be used (or does anyone honestly think bas should have made a completely new mi8 model only because they wanted to detach the rocket pods and the useless front gun?); the core addons of a mod should be unique!

so what will be the outcome of odol explorer? it will be a lot easier to identify if someone is a serious addonmaker

or just a bis-model-editor. I think there will be NO mod in the future that entirely uses edited models done by others.

and if so... nobody forces anybody to dl trash-addons.

your reputation would increase if you make a - lets say stryker lav, because it would be a lot easier to edit a bis model. the EVOLUTIONARY process of addon competition will only accelerate.

i assume that people (see above - personality) who now complain about odol explorer are mostly people who had access to such a tool before, so what do they fear? equality, competition - and that their elitarian position will be weakened! should anybody in the community be in the position to decide who may use an odol-tool and who not? this is - excuse me - arrogant.

arrogance?

ok, some time ago, when i was new to editing, i wrote emails to some people because i had some special questions. further on, when i was working on my first bigger model (LCAC) i contacted mods in order to arrange a cooperation on it, because i felt i did'nt have the time, capability and knowledge to finish it.

result: i got no reply - neither concerning my problems nor about the coop on the lcac. nobody in the community ever cared to answer me. even about a month ago when i got so far that i was able to write a step-by-step tutorial on how to make transparent textures, even ofpec didn't want it (or how would you interprete non-replying?). if someone would have at least responded lets say two weeks later saying 'your stuff s**ks, we're not interested, no time,'whatever..., no problem.

now I make some addons for iraqi mod IM:UC (one reason: the mod leader was the FIRST AND ONLY person in the community to reply!!!); the LCAC is postponed and catches dust on my hd, because our small team can't work on everything at the same time. thank you, community.

(actually i don't want to be part of this community, i just play the game and send some stuff to my mod leader from time to time.)

*first and probably last post*

remcen alias hottentotten mike

[T J 0]

Can we quit the outburst type comments now guys? Let's have a discussion and not an argument.

@Lupus. I remembered your point, and thought a lot about it. It's nice to have a civil response to start a discussion.

Are you already part of a team? If not you sound like you could be useful, especially if so many released models are as bad as you say. Or maybe you could put together an advanced tutorial with your findings?

How do you plan to work things? All your models will be the fine tuned ones? What will you do, keep a seperate mod folder with original addons for MP useage? Or use your modified ones to play with?

What would be your strategy if you modified a model, say that AH-1 from the seb nam pack, and then SelectThis says "sure release it". How would that work? Would it be Seb Nam 3 by STT, Ebud and Lupus? Would the addon be released by you or by the original teams? I dont feel that comfortable with somebody touching up a few details and then being hailed as a super model maker etc, would you be happy with a mention in the credits for instance?

What if the original author said "do what you like", how would you go?

I'm sure you are aware of the problems already existing, especially in MP, with all the varieties of VERSIONS of addons.

What can be done to help alleviate this? Does the new server options from BIS actually do a CRC on the model itself? Or just on the CPP?

What is your opinion of the fact, that it is quite feasible for somebody to take a model, remove the HIT lod and resave it. While they could claim "I just fixed some faces" they would in effect have enabled the long abandoned command "allowdammage false". Do you have any ideas for counteracting this and other side effects? My experience with the Delta Force and CS 'community' taught me that MP cheats will exploit any and every facet they can to gain an advantage. As somebody who plays MP every night, i'd hate to see my favourite game ruined like those two games, especially on the dawn of a new era in OFP online.

Do you see any other side effects of odolex?

The main benefits of P3Edit have been that to create new units, teams havent had to make a model from scratch. I dont know how long those original models took to make, but I guess they sure saved the teams a lot of time.

But is that fair when it comes to user made addons? Especially those made from scratch? As I say, I know very very little about modelling, thats why I ask.

Thanks for your time.

TJ

[Noon416 (OFPEC) 0]

remcen,

OFPEC welcomes all tutorials, we don't discriminate on what's submitted and we certainly don't try to snub or ignore anyone trying to.

I can't see your Tutorial in the Editors Depot pending or main content. Have you submitted it?

If not, feel free to try again or simply email me (Noon416@hotmail.com) the tutorial & relevant details and I'll drop it in there for you.

Regarding the topic at hand...

From Pathy

Quote[/b] ]Exactly, im just saying removing the save option forces that respect to be given, because they have to email for the MLOD.....

Respect is earned, not a right.

Trying to force someone to give you respect only achieves the opposite effect, you end up being seen as egotistical.

I'll tell you what this all looks like to me:

What I see is a few addonmakers seemingly in fear that with this tool, those learning model-making might not come to them for help as much, and hence the addonmaker's  status might reduce in the community.

From TJ

Quote[/b] ]If producing addons was just to gain admiration and prestige, then nobody would do it.

Pffft, thats a bit naive isn't it?

If addonmaking is *never* done for admiration and prestige, then the only other logical reason is that its done to better the game and community.

So if you go with that reasoning, whats wrong with sharing with the community?

Why should someone have to spend a week or two trying to get hold of one MLOD when they're simply learning and want to test a theory/method ingame to do with that model?

As I've stated, if someone plans to edit for release, then yes, permission *is required*. No two ways about it.

But when a person is at the learning stage, why should they have to go through the rigmarole of the above?

Wouldn't that be a case of you hindering the community simply because you demand respect?

[dinger 1]

Heh, TJ, you ain't getting my cash for your stock-market scam. And in fact, mutual funds here have to state in their advertising that past record is not a guarantee of future earnings.

The point I made there is that some of the best potential collaborators are those who haven't done anything in OFP, but who have the skills and ability to learn. And the ability to do something in OFP is not the only way to judge talent.

There are plenty of good reasons why someone might want to restrict access to a model, and as you know from other threads, I'm in favor of creators being able to limit access to their own work. But limiting access to tools, or setting up a power relationship in terms of access to resources, just encourages elitism and divisiveness.

And yeah, if you're worried about crappy addons; heck we can't get any crappier.

BUt there is that argument: restrict access to the tools to prevent people who make crappy addons from flooding OFP. After all, the criteria by which addons become popular are different from those by which they're considered "good".

[T J 0]

1. theft cant be avoided,

3. abusers will be quickly identified in this small community, as they always have been.

Good points, nicely made, but I'd like to point out with regard to your arguments 1 & 3.

1. No, it cant be avoided. But this is exactly the point. It CAN be encouraged and made easier. And it has been now. But a little more thought on behalf of the WRPTool team could have minimalized that.

^ The point above is the whole pivot in the discussion as I see it ^

and

3. Dont be so certain of a "small" community. We only see the dozens of names that subscribe and post here and in the various english language forums. But OFP has a huge userbase.

For instance, you might like to type in;

OFP Argentina or OFP Italy or any other country into google, and check out the number of fan sites.

How many of those 'community' members are privy to the opinions and feelings that are discussed here?

(another example, in just 2 weeks the BAS website had over 90,000 hits, small community? )

The whole attitude of the "FOR" camp regarding "We will police this" is irritating to me.

a) Because for the reasons above its impossible.

but primarily because;

b) Because policing was pretty much unneccessary.

If this tool was really about putting all addon makers on an equal footing, then why didn't the WRPTool team simply create a library of converted BIS addons for everybody to use?

After all, that is what the complaints are about.

It would be nice at this point to recieve more feedback from the WRPTool team.

Cheers

TJ

[Acecombat 0]

@ pathy:

Quote[/b] ]I mean, first, despite me previously saying "if someone is polite enough to email me for an MLOD it give it to them anyway,", he comes up with

Dear pathy if you cared to understand the meaning of my post in full you'd have realized what i was trying to explain by saying that , i wrote that to make you realize that theres no such thing as a refutal when it comes to giving permission to use a model of yours to someone else who in turns:

a) uses for his mod

b) reskins or something

c) private use

Now that this is settled and you agree here then why do you cry about the ODOL explorer? If your so generous and fair minded then why the 15 page sook session about it? When your so ready to give up the model to anyone who asks you for it .. then what difference does the ODOL explorer make to you? Nothing because as i said not everyone in this world has his eyes on your model not everyone will duplicate the same shitty M-4s again unless they are worth IT and when they are worth it the author obviously is mature enough to follow the ethics of giving credit to the original author.

This in turn leads to my opinion of a DEFAULT Yes to edit the model , because no one is going to rip your model unless he can make it better or i simply using it in his/her MOD with minor changes.

The only reason why i see you addonmakers are yearning for a ASK US OR BUST option is that you probably want to keep a monopoly on who uses your stuff and who doesnt which stems from some irrational insecurity that there is a big conspiracy plot out there to steal your model edit it and make 10,000 clones of it and have it on d/ld by the next day

Quote[/b] ]And that if an addon maker says "no you cant have the model", that they are stuck up? Oh cmon show 1) some sense, 2) some respect for people who can model, because i know from Nomad days, you cant model for shit Ace, so show some bloody respect.

Thanks i dont show sense i use it , respect is earned a lot of people in this world know how to model i will not die if a few refuse to do so because of the emergence of a tool which helps others learn modelling. I always have respect for a good model but in the light of present events lets say its only the virtual model that'll be hogging all of it rather then the original maker of the model. And thanks for reminding me that my modelling is not so good , maybe it was because of the fact that i didnt bother with making err duplicating guns which have been made 2847483 times already and instead i took upon modelling planes which was too tough without a good tute since Klinks isnt finished yet.

Quote[/b] ]Howabout the addon maker has future updates planned on thier model, or how about the addon maker just doesnt want to spread his model about just yet for ANY reason.....does that make him the stuck up asshole you think he is? Is that the level of respect for addon makers the community has reached, or is it just Ace that thinks its his right to get any model he asks for?

His future updates? So whats that got to with the open end model out in the public? Dont tell me now that his plans for updating his models are in jeopardy because of THAT?

Any reason whats that reason ? The Game developers have released their models and the freebie community members have some even BIGGER security reasons for not releasing a model? They might as well not release the darn thing at all then until there insecurities are subsided for who knows someone 'evil' might just decrypt their model....

The community respects addonmakers who respect and follow the basic ethics of addonmaking and help others not big headed nutballs who cry for 15 pages that people can now edit their model (which is a near impossible thing to do if you want to make drastic changes).

Quote[/b] ]And as for any reason why he wouldnt say yes, well smart guy, tell me why i have no response from him a week after i sent him an E mail and 2 weeks after i sent him a PM on this forum? Maybe its not because "hes a stuck up" (whatever a "stuck up" is), maybe hes planning updates, maybe he feels its too soon to have people editing his work, who knows, but i doubt hes a "stuck up"

Maybe he didnt get the email? It went in the spam/junk filter , or maybe he hasnt been online since then YET (surprise surprise )

If hes stalling and not replying then he is obviously a STUCK UP guy , the least he could do is explain why not. I dont see the reason why he'd want to keep the model for a 'little longer' is the model a egg that needs nesting in or something?

After all this talk ive come to the conclusion that the only reason why you guys dont want others to use your model is because of your obsession with it , sadly thats no basis for crying against this tool , its to help other folks who cant model and learn stuff due to lack of extensive tutes out there and simply to save time. If this really breaks your cherrys then i suggest dropping out of the whole modelling business altogether maybe someone whos learned from this tool will take your place.

Hope the english was suitable enough for you to understand , considering its my 3rd language so forgive me for being a bit losuy in it

[toadlife 3]

Quote[/b] ]If addonmaking is *never* done for admiration and prestige, then the only other logical reason is that its done to better the game and community.

Stop it Noony, you're making to much sense!!

Ya know what I think of this argument?

Seriously guy get over it. Your work is very appreciated, and will continue to be.

[T J 0]

I'll tell you what this all looks like to me:

What I see is a few addonmakers seemingly in fear that with this tool, those learning model-making might not come to them for help as much, and hence the addonmaker's  status might reduce in the community.

So if you go with that reasoning, whats wrong with sharing with the community?

Why should someone have to spend a week or two trying to get hold of one MLOD when they're simply learning and want to test a theory/method ingame to do with that model?

But when a person is at the learning stage, why should they have to go through the rigmarole of the above?

Wouldn't that be a case of you hindering the community simply because you demand respect?

Noon,

Fair points. But I dont see what you mean? Any learning can be done exactly as it was before odolex or p3edit ever came along, thats how things started.

As for why somebody should spend a week or two trying to get an MLOD, that seems perfectly acceptable to me, especially when said MLOD probably took many weeks or months to perfect. Remember, good things come to those who wait, patience is a virtue etc etc

Seriously, in this day of e-mail, things rarely take more than a few hours to sort out. And OFP is a game, what could be so desperate as not to wait a while?

I dont understand the "hindering the community simply because you demand respect?" argument? Where does the demanding respect come into it? Matter of fact, where does the hindering the community come into it? if one guy cant learn what X face does on a model for a few hours or days or even a week, is the community REALLY hindered? Come on, I'm an old man, you cant pull wool over my eyes THAT easily

TJ

[T J 0]

Quote[/b] ]If addonmaking is *never* done for admiration and prestige, then the only other logical reason is that its done to better the game and community.

Stop it Noony, you're making to much sense!!  

Now THERE's a cool topic for discussion;

Why do you do it? (Work for OFP that is?)

We should fire that one up in the discussion section.

In fact, i'm gonna do that right now  

Why do you do it?

TJ

[toadlife 3]

...Any learning can be done exactly as it was before odolex or p3edit ever came along, thats how things started....

I see the same theme popping up again and again with the people who are against this tool.

It's like you are saying, people new to modeling/scripts/mission design should have to learn things 'the hard way', like you had to do. "Why should 'they' have it so easy when 'I' had to suffer so much more to learn what 'I' know."

"You youngins have it too easy. When i was a boy, I had to walk five miles up hill both ways in the snow to get to school."

This worry about stealing seems to be a diversion to mask the feeling that the current talent-pool of mod-makers is at a pinnacle and can only be diluted by this new tool.

[remcen 0]

@ toadlife

i agree absolutely.

why should one blame someone for the opportunity he has but oneself was not granted???

and all i was saying is that some addon makers seem to be a bit up in the air - but on the other hand, some ppl really pay NO respect at all - i know.

[T J 0]

Toady,

You know its not that.

But the attitude of "OMG! I cant do anything without ODOLEX!!" is ridiculous.

What is coming through very strongly, and from surprising sources, is a revelation of somekind of misplaced 'envy' if I can call it that of those mod teams which were granted P3edit in the past. This shocks me, I had no idea the 'community' felt that way all this time. Why didnt you say ? We could have talked about it.

Make no mistakes, the quality seen in packs like FDF, in singular addons like Seb Mullers, or in a range of addons like Sigmas tanks, that quality doesnt come from having "one up" with P3Edit or anything else, but rather dedication, commitment, and importantly, STICKABILITY, or the drive to see a long project through to its finish. How many quality addons have come from people unwilling to do the time? A Dinger says, there is tons of "less desirable" addons out there.

I do hope i'm not, but I imagine I am, coming across as a whinging loser in this discussion. As I have stated many times, I have nothing to gain or lose by this tool, I am purely interested in the decisions that went into the release of it, and the attitudes of those who choose to make a post or comment. The discussion is whats interesting to me really, and what "defences" those who use the tool come up with.The results are interesting to say the least.

I'm not sure im gona get much more time to post in the forum over the next few days, I hope the discussion progresses in the same constructive vain.

[colonel_klink 0]

Hmm

Been away for a day or so and still the debate rages. I'm beginning to think the war in Iraq will be over before the ODOL Explorer debacle is.

I'm probably one of the oldest in the current OFP community and personally I don't see what the fuss is over.

Ok so there a few people out there that will "steal" other people's work.. so what?

What I would like to ask is how many of those 'concerned brethren' have copies of music, computer programs.. etc etc who are deploring the release of ODOL Explorer.. There is a saying be careful of throwing stones..

What's done is done. Get over it and move on.

By continuing this debate means that people have too much time on their hands where they should be getting on with their addon making.

The community was born from the OFPEC community that shared (probably before that), so what happened? Ok so a few people were given O2 to use. To beta test if I remember correctly. There was a debate over whether it should be opened to the wider community. There was a fear of inferior addons.. hell my first addons were inferior..

But the wider community were given O2 and the addons have improved greatly, because of two things.. experience and.. yes.. SHARING!

Then Binarize came along.. to optimize the addons, no more no less. Okay so it gave the addon creator some protection against fraudulent misuse of the addon.. but that was not the intention.. it was for smaller filesize and optimization.

What has happened, and I am sure this is the main reason people are a bit upset, is that as addons have progressed and mod teams have formed, there has been a bit of jealous guardianship over their work. As addon knowledge, particularly in scripting, has progressed, there have been some major inroads to getting the best out of OFP. COC did it with their amazing addons, BAS have done it, and others including myself, have tried to push the limitations of OFP.

I have always been the sharing type. Along with Brrseb, and others, we have attempted to share our knowledge with the noobie and others who want to learn.

Whether ODOL Explorer can save to MLOD or not doesn't matter. If, and its a big IF, this community wishes to survive then we need to TRUST one another and get back to basics. Sharing information, knowledge, whatever is the first step. As stated several times before on this thread, If you want to edit another persons addon and wish to release it.. then ASK. If permission is not given then respect that. People have asked me for the mlod of the harrier and the A4 and I have refused, because the addons are betas, and they are primarily for the Falklands Mod. Others have asked about the zodiacs, and other addons I have made and permission has been granted.

I personally think this debate has served its purpose, people have expressed their opinions, and respectfully thats all they are. As there has been no official statement in this thread about the tools release, my advice (sagely) is give it a rest. Get over it and move on.

[denoir 0]

Well said. All of it

[Sigma-6 29]

Amen.

[Guest]

Hmm

Been away for a day or so and still the debate rages. I'm beginning to think the war in Iraq will be over before the ODOL Explorer debacle is.

It depend on whether or not TJ finds his "models of mass destruction"    

[T J 0]

Hmm

Been away for a day or so and still the debate rages. I'm beginning to think the war in Iraq will be over before the ODOL Explorer debacle is.

It depend on whether or not TJ finds his "models of mass destruction"    

I KNOW They're here somewhere........somewhere......

Bob, I know it was a lot of reading, but the discussion moved on from a FOR/AGAINST tack, as always, some are for, some are against. The "raging" debate is now a gentle armchair conversation, slippers and pipes at the ready!!

The direction it is taking now, is rather what would be a better system or procedure for the release of important tools etc for the community.

While the easy stance is "what is done is done, get over it", I would prefer, "What is done is done, what does it teach us?"

It will be interesting to look back on this discussion in a few months time, when the tools have had a chance to make an impact, and to compare the fears and hopes expressed.

But then I guess by that time we will all be so sucked into the OFP flashpoint2004 expansion pack that we wont give two hoots for these older models

TJ

[benu 1]

TJ, actually, you can't really talk about the future yet when the present is not clear. You could only declare to wait and see what comes of this tool. Which you are not willing to do, you want the save funtion removed in the next version as you said yourself.

I really get the impressions you don't really accept the points of the other sides. There were people who said they could use the save function for legitime purposes. Please accept this. This tool is useful for someone. The only thing you are saying is either "no, you are wrong, I say there is no use in the save function, so you are wrong, because i am the only judge how addon making has to be learned" or that "harm will come from this tool for sure".

I am not sure what more to write about the first statement. If you care to respond to it then please write either a) that the save function has useful purposes as other people are telling or b) why you know better then themselves what is good for other people.

This stealing thing has not been proven, maybe it will be in the future, but i don't think so. Until then it is prejudice and discrimination. And the experience from the past tells us that it hasn't in the past to any noteworthy extent. But you call us all thieves. Even if you go into the "only the argentinians and italians are thieves" thing now, it's still the same prejudice and discrimination. Where are the facts? Where is the evidence?

What i really don't get is why especially you act this way. I have known you as one of the most friendly, helpful and sharing guys i know in this community and i can't really fit your posts in this thread to the picture i have of you. When did this change happen and why?

I guess one reason this topic is debated so heatedly is because of the sentiments that were shown in some other threads in the last weeks where some addon makers started calling the rest of the community ungrateful thieves. Also, without any evidence or even without anything bad happening at all. And it's always coming from the same directions. I really don't get where this attitude is coming from. I have seen no change of mentality "here in userland". The only changes have been in some addon maker teams it seems.

And please don't come with "behind the scenes" bullshit. Behind the scenes was p3dedit. This tool has nothing to do with "behind the scenes". If some Joe Blow behind the scenes already got p3dedit decrypted models from you, nice for him. I didn't get anything. This board has 27000 members. Can you honestly say "of course i would have mailed the decrypted bis models to all the 27000 users if they had decided to take an interest into modelling, even if they had no projects"? Can you?

And as Miles said: it is all about respect. I respect the work of addon makers, and i don't care if they are a renowned mod team or some unknown "nobody". If someone makes a good addon i respect it. I respect the skill, the effort, the giving. I respect the mission makers too. I see their effort from our mission makers, from the questions i read in the forums and in the finished missions. I am a server admin, and a good server is more then just copying the files and starting the server script. If a server is well run i can see the work that was put into it and i respect that too. I respect our players who share their free time with us to have fun games with us.

But this respect is based on the things that they do. I do not know you as person, so i couldn't respect your character even if i wanted to. And i would never write stuff like that i want to have your babies It is sad that the work of some addon maker teams gets overshadowed by the stuff they write here. Maybe ***** (decided to take the name out) is known "behind the scenes". I don't know him, i don't know his addons. But right now i am feeling like i don't ever want to have his addon on my server or in the missions i play, because the only thing i know about right now are his asshole-style postings in this thread.

Please don't take it personal. The many good things you have done can (in my eyes) not be overshadowed by this debate. But as you seem to be willing to go on in this debate, try to counter this arguments. And btw: this is from someone who has only marginal interest in the tool himself. Maybe i will use it to look at some models, i am interested in all things ofp. Maybe i will do models for personal use if i get the hang of it. But actually this has nothing to do with the points that came up from the "enemies" of this tool. It's more about the "i don't accept your statement that you can use this tool" and "you are all thieves" thing.

On other thing: please don't make generalisations to prove your point. Please no "some evil H4XXX0rz out there who aren't in this board" and no "evil argentinian and italian gangsters" who might somewhere in the future steal an addon. As you said yourself: there are 274 pages in A&M:C, with 15 topics each. How many of those >4000 addons have been stolen?

[Pathy 0]

From Pathy

Quote[/b] ]Exactly, im just saying removing the save option forces that respect to be given, because they have to email for the MLOD.....

Respect is earned, not a right.

Trying to force someone to give you respect only achieves the opposite effect, you end up being seen as egotistical.

Your taking it out of context, im talking about respecting ANY addon makers right to the permissions to THIER work.

Are you now saying that, if a person doesnt feel that the addon makers automatically have the right to decide what happens with thier work, they can do whatever they like with it (ie release update without permission, because they dont feel the addon maker has earned the respect to give permissions)    I very much doubt it, i think your just missing or ignoring the context....

Oh and ace, i dont think anyone else will agree with you here that addon makers automatically have to allow people to edit thier models, thus meaning nobody has to ask for permission to use a model in thier mod, ect, anymore. And learn to put together a solid argument. Yours has so many holes in it i cant be bothered to pick it apart AGAIN because you will just post up another page full of the same meaningless ramble

You may think im not understanding your post, i understand what you are saying perfectly. Its not my fault if what you are saying is not what you think your saying

[Acecombat 0]

Hehe all you did was take things out of context , take one sentence from here warp its meaning here and stick it there , voila you made the whole thing the complete opposite must commend you for that

My argument s very solid indeed thank you , if you want to bail out just say so. No one else so far has any problem understanding my posts here so your the only special one here

[Pathy 0]

Noone else can understand what you mean.....

Quote from unnamed person on MSN

Quote[/b] ]hahaha yeh what a fucken muppet really

[Nagual 0]

Hmm, the sticking point for me is not model theft, mp cheating ect, blah blah.

It is that snake man and co decided they know better than everyone in regards to how every single addon should be managed.

I can only speak for my own experience, and that is: This tool has removed some of my rights and freedoms, choices, as to how my project is managed. Snake man and co are so smart and i expect ego driven that they made that decision for me, i could even say they took something without permission.

I dont need them to decide for me, i didnt ask them to, but they did, IMPOSING their will over something that i earned the right to manage. That just my experience.

The "community" supports this, so essentially are saying "we will accept this intial act of taking without permission, but will police any further acts", lol, yeah right. Thats why i think trusting the community is a joke, whats next i wonder.

And i would still like to know if they have any probs posting all their source code, i mean they are happy to give a free ticket to everyone elses source, so why not their own work i wonder? What a great answer that would be.

[Acecombat 0]

Noone else can understand what you mean.....

Quote from unnamed person on MSN

Quote[/b] ]hahaha yeh what a fucken muppet really

Ok ...

Talk about Sour grapes , if you want this to degenerate in to a shit fight then please go ahead but you'll find yourself in the ban box as quickly as you did on the opflash.org forums.

[vektorboson 8]

Noone else can understand what you mean.....

Quote from unnamed person on MSN

Quote[/b] ]hahaha yeh what a fucken muppet really

Talking of flame baiting. Better do what you preach son. You disqualified yourself.