ODOL Explorer v2.0

[Pathy 0]

@Pathy

If you feel now like banging your head against a concrete wall, then you know how I felt in the p3dEdit-thread. My question about the long list of model thefts wasn't answered yet. But for sure, now you seem to have some issues. Good evening.

Actually i stated several times that there WASNT a long list, but you seem to ignore what people say when it suits you. Good Evening.

PS. Stop flame-baiting

Oh and Verk, your previous main argument was "needing P3dedit for learning from". Tell me, just what extra can you learn from being able to open someones P3d and move the faces round, as opposed to looking at it? I say nothing, it still doesnt tell you how to make faces or place vertices, it doesnt tell you HOW the modeller did it, it only tells you that the modeller did it. And to make a version with a save option on it, well there is absolutely zero learning advantage gained from that.

[Stag 0]

Actually i believe, but havent experimented, we can still encrypt our addons.

Somewhere in this thread, someone said this tool was like sticking thier fingers up at us "elitist" addon makers.

Well us putting, say, a 128 bit encryption on our addons would be a finger up to whoever said that.........

Sorry, just liked the idea (and the image of all your looks on your faces (like, thinking "omg what an asshole") when you read that)

It was me who used words similar to that, although you've done a fine job of quoting me out of context. I've never stolen anyone's work, and neither have the majority of members here, but we've been as good as called thieves when this gizmo has been out less than 24 hours; How's that for generalisation?

I find the majority of people I've asked for help in the past have bent over backwards to solve my problem, but there a small, admittedly talented minority who are so full of shit I wouldn't even bother approaching them; that's what I men by Elitist. If you want to stick yourself with them, fine.

I've got zero interest in pulling apart addonmakers models; what I do want to do is be able to access a basic model to see how something was done, and how it works. So encrypt away; I have no interest whatsoever.

[T J 0]

Yeh, anyone can now, with minimal modelling skill make the appropriate LODs so that they will have an almost invincible vehicle, and due to the way OFP works, its not possible to prove or disprove it.

Great. Just when we seem to be on the brink of a mainstage revolution in OFP Multiplayer, and when Join In Progress makes it into a future expansion, then right away the ability to cheat wholesale is provided, on a plate. And all because of the unecessary Save to MLOD feature.

I was heavily involved in the Delta Force editing community before migrating to OFP, and left that when the game was unplayable, ala Counterstrike, due to the multiplicity of cheats.

Lets just hope that you didn't kill OFP online before its even born.

Come on Tact, that argument doesnt hold water, you needed ONE model for what you described, or even just ONE LOD to copy and paste.

No, the question remains a valid, and unanswered one, what are the benefits of save to mlod?

So far the scales are tipped waaaaaaay over on the side of the cons. Surely somebody has at least a civil/reasonable answer that isnt along the lines of "Why the hell not? Lalalalala" ??

In 10 pages, not one good argument for it so far......but the list of cons just grows and grows. Im no Einstein, but even I can work that one out...........and its not like I have ANYTHING at all to 'protect', having never made a model in my life (apart from the rope ladder for the BAS Mh60).

TJ

[Pathy 0]

Lol as i stated in that very same post you quoted, i dont actually lump myself with the Elitist, and i dont really feel the need to encrypt anything, i just liked the idea of all the people feeling all joyful at this tool being released reading that we can still encrypt it    <<------ Sick Mind

Tj your right, i tried to type an answer to Tact, but couldnt write something that was reasonable and what i wanted to say, but youve said it for me. It hardly tilts the scales anyway towards being right, just for one model........

Oh and mate, i havent accused anyone in this forum of being a theif. Infact i said in an earlier post, i will find and quote it if you like, that i would trust almost everyone on this forum, and that the only worry i would have is from the likes of the people who used to flame up the OFP.info comment boards. I mean, if they cant respect addon makers in their comments, they arent going to respect addon makers rights/permissions with thier models......

[uiox 0]

Stop your stupid discuss.

You can buy a model 150 € 30 000 polys, too much, someone has solution for reduce...

The models from other programs? And textures too.  

You are all what you can't bear.

Where are artists?

You can't copy Polock, you can make the 5th of retexturing of a huey...

[Pathy 0]

English please....

[Stag 0]

Lol as i stated in that very same post you quoted, i dont actually lump myself with the Elitist, and i dont really feel the need to encrypt anything, i just liked the idea of all the people feeling all joyful at this tool being released reading that we can still encrypt it <<------ Sick Mind

Tj your right, i tried to type an answer to Tact, but couldnt write something that was reasonable and what i wanted to say, but youve said it for me. It hardly tilts the scales anyway towards being right, just for one model........

Oh and mate, i havent accused anyone in this forum of being a theif. Infact i said in an earlier post, i will find and quote it if you like, that i would trust almost everyone on this forum, and that the only worry i would have is from the likes of the people who used to flame up the OFP.info comment boards. I mean, if they cant respect addon makers in their comments, they arent going to respect addon makers rights/permissions with thier models......

Whatever. Time will tell if you're right or wrong, and personally I think that your protests are unwarranted.

[Pathy 0]

Wow, what a great reply, "whatever". couldnt think of a proper argument?

[Tactician 0]

Where else would I get that one model? What if I wanted to reanimate proxy positions for vehicles? I'd need an MLOD for each one.

Exporting to MLOD has a purpose. Why do you want to nix a useful feature?

[uiox 0]

[m21man 0]

English please....

I'm sorry ô God to speak in your language, i'm so sorry to have the infinite lucky to be born in the marvellous country of the God of our times

J'oubliais va te faire enculer. In english fuck you I think?

Now this is just getting funny.

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]gonna add this to the INQ weapons crate too. just like i did the wgl M203 (based on your M16)  

Edit: nvm you got this addon with an 84 bit encryption too   dont suppose you could kindly ofer us an "unlocked" version so we can add this to exsisting weapon and ammo crates could u?

im curious thou. as to why you lock your addons with an 84 bit encryption, then binerize the model, and binerize the config. i understand there are alot of dishonest people in this community. but that just takes paranoya to a new level  

Edited by Pappy Boyington on Mar. 14 2004,21:11

This was an Encryption INQ put on his SR-25.

I think, addon makers need not worry. Lets just ask INQ how to do it.

No im not being elitist, i'd just prefer it if people had to ask to get the MLOD.........

Oh and tact, that is no doubt a valid use for the save tool, but one valid use against a whole ream of reasons why this thing shouldnt have been released is still not a good argument

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think, addon makers need not worry. Lets just ask INQ how to do it.

Am I the only one who thinks it would be extremely ironic to ask INQ about protecting addon-makers' work?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

If you can not have a discussion like adults, then I certainly won't try to chair a discussion of kids, I will simply stop the discussion.

I am closing this for 24hrs, when this gets reopened you will discuss maturely, or not at all.

Did I make myself clear?

[shadow 6]

I'm opening this topic in hope of a more civil discussion.

No name-calling or throwing dirt around.

[shadow 6]

TJ, you say you have'nt heard any solid arguement to why this tool is a good thing.

Here's what I did today:

(private hobby-project due to legal-issues) I opened up BIS Apache in O2 and started converting it into a D-model (minor changes, but still changes). I've never used O2 before and I have no experience with 3d-modelling. If it was'nt for this ODOL-MLOD tool I'd probably never be able to try my hands in O2 simply because I have no 3d modelling skills. Today I've learned about LODs and Selections. To me that is a good thing. Now, when I can understand the basic logic behind LODs and Selections, then anyone can.

Now you might be thinking "why can't he learn that on BRSSEB's container-tutorial or some other uber-simpel tutorial?".

Well, it is alot easier to learn something when you are working on a object you would very much like to see in OFP (the Apache is my all-time fav chopper)

So the reason why I like this tool: it makes it alot easier to get to grips with O2. As for my lack of modelling-skills, a very close friend is an ACE with 3dsmax and can make the models he and I like to see in OFP.

[soul_assassin 1723]

for those who missed the point:

p3dedit was't released not for some eleetist believs. Whoever thinks so has no respect. The tool was held back for a siple reason that the creators before leaving the community said that they dont want the tool to be in the posession of the public. All of you must respect that.

[BraTTy 0]

And they prolly didn't want to upset Bis?

I can't add too much,alot has been said.You all know I am for helping others, just I can't believe that this tool was released ,but Bis hasn't said anything or closed this topic and its not actually hacking into Bis source code (sorta on compression scheme)

If they don't mind then I don't mind, I agree that its already proven helpful (Shadow is a good example and thats the kind of stuff I want to hear)

I agree that I can't see that it NEEDS the save feature,but for someones own use of editable models,there is nothing that we can do about that

If peoples stuff starts showing up without permission then we have a problem,but until then its great that it helps

The only reason that I could say as to why it should NOT have the save feature:

It intimidates(wrong use I know) stealing ,just like people that don't steal,but that doesn't mean you go leaving 100$ bills laying around,it's tempting and bound to happen

Just that addonmakers need to state permissions very clearly.One could go as far as saying things like :

NO opening,viewing,tampering,altering of any kind

And any indications of this happening, we can torture them (the old 50 lashes with wet noodle joke)

And people like me need to clearly state things like : Open source,no permissions needed,please change classnames

And I want to add my thoughts on the "Ask author for permission and if no response or can't find them, after 30 days,go ahead and release"

WRONG...I don't care if its been years,without the authors permission DO NOT RELEASE

Even when you get permission, you should actually save the email or some proof,because a thief in the model scene is not welcomed and wont last long an even if they become honest,they still may not be trusted

I don't really expect/want all my addons to be learning tools either,appears I don't even have that option anyways

Just gonna have to make them so complex so they are hard to read

[Footmunch 0]

As someone who has never binarised (mainly due to laziness

on my part), I'd like to say: "Welcome to my world".

So far, no one has stolen any p3d files of mine - this may be

a comment on the quality of the models themselves, or it

_may_ be that there aren't large packs of 'rouge' addon-

makers who are just waiting for their chance to 'pervert' the

work of others.

Most people who have wanted to change my addons have

been texturers who want particular camo-schemes. In most

of these cases, they have got in touch, and I usually provide

them with layered PSP files to make it easier for them to work.

Of course, there are 'bad apples' out there, but they will be

squashed pretty quickly. If they don't have the skill to

create a new model, the edits they make will probably be

fairly 'ham-fisted' as well, and will be obvious after a few

minutes testing.

The only straight 'lift' from any of my addons has been some

scripting. I have not commented on this before, and will not

do so now.

Pathy - I'm genuinely interested here: how many times have

you used your copy of p3dedit to open an ODOL file in, say,

the last 6 months? Of these, how many were BIS models, and

how many were 3rd party?

[Pathy 0]

Foot, i'm confused, your talking like im advocating the tool.

But the answer to your question is the only BIS models i have are the demo models, any others would be illegal (Shadow, by editing that apache youre breaking the law!), and those demo models, ive only opened them up when making a soldier model and needing a reference as to the defines.

So no, ive never ever used P3dedit, although i have been offered it (by people who shouldnt also have it)

However, this is just my way, i found it easier to learn O2 via tutes and the demo models offered all that i needed to know for anything else. How hard is it to make faces

And because of this, i dont understand why a save function is needed on ODOL explorer, its totally unecessary....Shadow will disagree with that, stating his use of it, but mate, your not meant to be editing BIS models anyway! And there is no further learning use for it. You can learn as much from looking at the model without being able to save it. And at the end of the day, looking OR editing a model only tells you WHAT the addon maker did not HOW.

Oh and i was talking to MIG (colonial wars guy), he raised an interesting point, saying something along the lines of "it wasnt very smart to release this, because now BIS will make a new form of protection for OFP2"

[kegetys 2]

Oh and i was talking to MIG (colonial wars guy), he raised an interesting point, saying something along the lines of "it wasnt very smart to release this, because now BIS will make a new form of protection for OFP2"

What protection was he talking about? The ODOL format was made to _optimize_ the models, not to protect them in any way. Anyone who thinks binarizing is some sort of "encryption" or "protection" has been seriously misinformed, odol explorer only converts a file format to another, just like if you'd open a TGA file in photoshop and save it as JPEG. There's no "decryption" or anything like that involved.

[denoir 0]

But the answer to your question is the only BIS models i have are the demo models, any others would be illegal    

Although technically probably true, in practice I don't see BIS objecting. Why would they? It can only serve to increase the popularity of the game if there are good addons available. There is no loss of profit involved. Now if you would be selling them, it would be another thing. But that's not the case.

Besides, there have been a number of 'illgal' modifications of BIS stuff without them ever complaining. For one thing the stuff that has been done by various groups with access to p3dedit. If you want an excellent example, take Kegetys winter islands. I don't remember which of the Spanel brothers it was that in an interview said that the winter conversions were the best addons ever made for OFP.

Unfortunately I don't have much time these days over for OFP, but had this tool been released a year ago or so, I would certainly have used it to play around with the various addons (without releasing the modifications - just for private use).

[waffendennis 0]

for those who missed the point:

p3dedit was't released not for some eleetist believs. Whoever thinks so has no respect. The tool was held back for a siple reason that the creators before leaving the community said that they dont want the tool to be in the posession of the public. All of you must respect that.

Drunken?

But:

If BIS dont likes this tool:

I am sure they already did some thing about it then.

So i think there are no problems with it.

[h - 169]

Ok... Can't restrain myself any longer... I know all of this has been said before, but anyhoo...

Quote[/b] ]Shadow, by editing that apache youre breaking the law!

[mouthFoaming]

How so?

Why not accuse BAS then as they have modified the BIS BRDM (afaik, and probably used all the BIS tanks as a basis in their upcomig desert pack) and they released it, and it's surely not included in the demo...

Among others that have had the access to some earlier ODOL 'hack' progs...

And AFAIK the BIS eula states that all their work is free to use within OFP and as long as it's kept free...

And furthermore, what makes the 3D models so prescious all of a sudden? (I'm not demeaning anybodys work... I know how much work it takes to craft 3D...)

How many user missions would there be if there was no un-pbo prog made, which allow you to SAVE the pbo as open source?

Why won't anybody call the makers of un-pbo progs as traitors and the progs themselves as hack tools?

Does this mean that the only real elite pros are those who can make a 3D model (I can, and I still support this software... Am I an outlaw now?)?

In this light it seems that the ones who make missions for example are not qualified as OFP editing elite altough it can take months to finish a very good mission. Has anyone ever compalined how after he/she releases a mission everybody can un-pbo it and have a 'rip' in the mission editor? afaik no...

And why not drag to court all those who have used music in their missions which they have converted to .ogg, which now seems to be hacking as well...

Not to mention TexView (a BIS release) to convert (now: hack) their original textures made by themselves...

Or does the EULA say that 'you can do almost anything with OFP, but don't you dare to modify the .exe or our ODOL models...'

I believe it says only that .exe part (of course, correct me if I'm wrong)...

Why not cry about WRPTool and some others that allow you to make/change/modify islands?

And for example in Visitor EULA there are only laws phobiting the modifications etc. made to the program, not anything about the original BIS game content...

Why not resent the tools that convert audio to .wss and vice versa, since they are formats used in OFP and even some Addon/mod maker has made his/her own sounds, or even worse, taken the original BIS ones and modified them (or even even worse, if Pathy has made some sound and somebody dares to modify it...    )?

Since the ODOL explorer now allows everybody (even those who keep the OFP.Info comments system disabled... Like they knew how to tie their shoelaces...) to make a top notch quality addon by ripping,modifying and re-texturing it in 5 minutes, why there has not been a single model rip released yet? Because this tool has now been out for, how many hours? 50 and counting? So there should be 530+ ripped models upmerging as we speak...

And the list could go on...

Even all the educational material (books etc etc.) are made from someone elses work, looking AND modifying it to understand it...

Or do you think that your physics teacher invented the Newton laws and all it's uses every morning before coming to teach you...

And I'm interested how the demo MLOD models would not be illegal to modify since the demo is also legal property of BIS/Codemasters?

Is it stated somewhere that it's now 'freeware, so you can do whatever you like with it.'

Quote[/b] ]looking OR editing a model only tells you WHAT the addon maker did not HOW.

Could you care to explain?

Again, a comparison to educational material: They too describe/show WHAT has been done and then they teach you HOW it was done... Take mathematical equations for example: We got this figure from that sentence (WHAT). And this is how we did it(HOW)...

Or are you saying that if someone with no comprehension what so ever on O2 would not learn anything by converting some model to MLOD so he/she can poke around in it in O2, thus getting the hang of different LODs, how to make stuff with much less faces than you thought of, twisting and pulling the vertices/faces/etc. and perhaps even putting it in-game to see what does which do...

This is quite far the way I learned all I know about O2, since all tutoials are written by (a somewhat) pros, so only pros can understand most of them, or too basic so they just confuse you more...

And this is the exact reason BIS released some of their own models as MLOD, so people could take them into O2 and take a look... That's what the said when they released the models...

It's a common flaw with talented people (which you Pathy obviously are, you wouldn't take this tool as such an insult otherwise...) that they don't understand that if they have learned something their way another person might not ever learn it that same way. Once they are pleased with their work thus having professional pride growing within, they seem to completely forget the ability to decent back to the n00b state, maybe even refusing it because they abhor the idea of lending their 'trade secrets' to some 'youngster'... This is very common behaviour in all walks of life...

But when you can emphasize/decent back to the n00b state and understand how other people learn things, that's when you become more than a pro, an educator...

And that what this program is, it's an educational tool...

Any mis-use always comes between the ears of the user using the tool, not from the tool or certainly not from the developers of it...

[/mouthFoaming]

Quote[/b] ]What protection was he talking about? The ODOL format was made to _optimize_ the models, not to protect them in any way. Anyone who thinks binarizing is some sort of "encryption" or "protection" has been seriously misinformed, odol explorer only converts a file format to another, just like if you'd open a TGA file in photoshop and save it as JPEG. There's no "decryption" or anything like that involved.

Ah, Kegetys said it in so many less words than I ever could... So I'll stop ranting now...  

And just give a huge hand to Snake Man and Dschulle and all the others behind this effort...

Great tool, it gave a 100% better chance to release something I've been working for a long time... Thank You!

Quote[/b] ]Although technically probably true, in practice I don't see BIS objecting. Why would they? It can only serve to increase the popularity of the game if there are good addons available. There is no loss of profit involved. Now if you would be selling them, it would be another thing. But that's not the case.

Quite...

The reason nobody from BIS has commented this (in public that is) that they simply don't give a rats ass...

(yet to be proven...  )

Quote[/b] ]Besides, there have been a number of 'illgal' modifications of BIS stuff without them ever complaining. For one thing the stuff that has been done by various groups with access to p3dedit. If you want an excellent example, take Kegetys winter islands. I don't remember which of the Spanel brothers it was that in an interview said that the winter conversions were the best addons ever made for OFP.

To the point again...

(and I share the feelings of BIS regarding Kegetys' winter islands)

[slightMouthFoaming]

Which reminds me of another 'hack' that was in somewhat 'common' use back in the OFP early days: The way to change textures in BIS models was done by HEX editing. If that was not hacking, then nothing is... And were there huge ranting caused by this, accusingg people to be hackers and threatening them with law-enforced persecutions? No...

The same HEX method was used a while for editing BIS islands as well...[/slightMouthFoaming]

[shadow 6]

the only BIS models i have are the demo models, any others would be illegal    (Shadow, by editing that apache youre breaking the law

Here's a quote from my previous post:

Quote[/b] ](private hobby-project due to legal-issues)

I will not release it when it is finnished unless BIS approves.

Now, am I breaking any rules by fiddling with this model inside my own 4 walls?  

I don't think so.

I can understand the grudge many people here has towards this tool. But I think the good (learning-purposes) far outweighs the bad (pirate-factor). Ofcourse, it's hard for me to not be biased because I am learning O2 now.