Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[Sniperwolf572 758]

3 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

That's why they updated it, "smoothly follows" now is what it said in the changelog on dev branch, unless it doesn't actually do what it's intended...

 

Try before you post.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

1 hour ago, Sniperwolf572 said:

 

Try before you post.

Whoops. Sorry, got the notification and replied during combat. Lol. Anyhow, what i think, is that your option, and BI's option should be optional. Maybe in settings somewhere. Camera Follow Inverted/Upright Toggle option or something. Would be nice.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Love it. Though they're all really nice, the Gripen, I mean Gryphon, is the most enjoyable to fly in my opinion. It's excellent. It's a shame no after burners are available, BUT fuel tanks aren't a thing yet either, so I'm still guessing that's later down the line. I know BO1 Studio has really nice after burners animations too, and when paired with the shift key, makes flying fighters an Epic experience.

[venthorror 117]

Stalling seems to be the biggest problem for me.

Once you start stalling the aircraft, nothing seems to work in averting the stall.  (decreasing AoA and/or pitching down)

It is like you are forced to a complete stop. (even with nose down)

I hope we get AOA warning sounds and G-force effects.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I hope we don't get G force effects and the likes. Until we get an entire new flight model those won't be necessary, I've been pulling well over 20G's, I'm certain. Humans can only withstand like, 8, and 12 with extreme assistance from g-suits, and super nice seats, oxygen, etc. I think it's best to leave those things to ACE. I'm a fan of realism, I I don't think that level of realism belongs in Vanilla unless we get the whole realism suite for all the things.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

On 3/29/2017 at 6:50 PM, driftingnitro said:

 

 

 

 

 

Rejoice, an informative comparison of what's on devBranch versus my hacked together version and it's not too bad. I think most people can work with this.

You know what, it's grown on me. It'd be best if we could have the option to choose, toggle between either of these Camera's.

[teabagginpeople 398]

1 hour ago, darksidesixofficial said:

It's a shame no after burners are available,

Whats the A up besides the wheelbreak / landing gear indicator. 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

My thoughts exactly. Someone check key bindings.

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

6 minutes ago, darksidesixofficial said:

My thoughts exactly. Someone check key bindings.

Landing autopilot.

[driftingnitro 38]

1 hour ago, darksidesixofficial said:

You know what, it's grown on me. It'd be best if we could have the option to choose, toggle between either of these Camera's.

Ayee! Thanks!

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

3 hours ago, Nightmare515 said:

Landing autopilot.

*tears

 

2 hours ago, driftingnitro said:

Ayee! Thanks!

;) The more i fly the new jets, the more i want this feature.

 

[venthorror 117]

So far I'm impressed with jets dlc.

Keeping in mind that flight model will not be getting "advanced" upgrade, it still needs some major tweaks.

 

Gryphon seems to be able to make tight circles with both vertical and horizontal axis without stalling.

Keeping throttle at 100% and pulling back in the stick (max)

 

Neophron is still able to climb 90° without stalling or losing power.

Taking off seems to be to long for Neophron, and Landing too short.

[peegee 118]

1 hour ago, venthorror said:

Neophron is still able to climb 90° without stalling or losing power.

Taking off seems to be to long for Neophron, and Landing too short.

I found it weird that it has problems taking off, but no problems doing "cobra" like manouver.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

The Yak-130 is quite capable of going vertical for some time before needing to avoid a stall. The Neophran reflects this in game nicely, as you can't go like that forever, and your also slow, at a little over 300km.

As for the gripen... I mean Gryphon... I've seen it turn full circles without losing that much speed. It feels the same in Arma, but it actually still does lose speed. If you start a turn at 1000km, it'll take you 30 seconds to drop to only 400-300km, then a stall. 

[venthorror 117]

2 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

The Yak-130 is quite capable of going vertical for some time before needing to avoid a stall.

Yak-130 Has climb rate of 65 m/s, In Arma its 100 m/s with a steady speed of 360km/h

Right now (dev branch) Neophron Can go Vertical forever. All other jets stall.

On the other hand DLC jets are stalling too soon going vertically.

2 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

Gryphon... I've seen it turn full circles without losing that much speed.  If you start a turn at 1000km, it'll take you 30 seconds to drop to only 400-300km, then a stall.

 Its not the question whether it can go circular without losing power, It is the question of how tight that circle is.

And now it is possible to pull off an unimaginably small circle/s without losing power or stalling.

With stick pulled all the way back. Max AOA aircraft would stall right away.

Size of the circle is determined by jets ability to maintain AOA below max, while flying in that circle.

 

Currently Gryphon will not stall when flying circles.

Having the ability to slow down in a circle without stalling makes it much more powerful in comparison to Wasp and Shikra.

Wasp and Shikra can not "keep up" with this low speed, and while trying to tail Gryphon they ether stall in a circle or are forced to overshoot.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Thats the thing though, re:AOA, i think they also need to keep in mind balance. Not everyone uses a stick. So when i hold down S, it's not as efficient as pulling 80-75% on a stick in order to not stall out. The way it is isn't bad, you can hold a tight turn, but not for very long, at least in terms of fighters. CAS jets simply drop out of the sky if you try pulling turns in them for sustained time, which is sort of how it should be.

 

But for the Gryphon, ill have to do some more testing, as what i've found contradicts what your saying. Where as i've been able to turn longer in the 5th gen fighters, the Gryphon isn't as fast, and for me, stalls much faster. However, if you level out now and then yo maintain speed, it is able to keep on pulling short tight turns over and over, which is fine, except the lower you are, the harder it is to regain your speed, as it seems the engine struggles to put out thrust when you hit 300 and below unless you flight straight. Though, for me it's not the speed of the aircraft that bothers me as much as the flight model itself.

 

The flight model isn't bad, but what gets on my nerves is the artificial bank. When you bank 45 degrees, your true flight path indicater sways to that side, as to simulate the plane's center of gravity shifting. IT's not the case however, it simply drifts, nose still facing that way. Also, when you bank back up right, it takes a few seconds for the true path the center itself. It shouldn't take so long because the center of gravity should have changed too, but since it doesn't it's just drifting about to left/right. It feels super weird.

 

Edit: AHA! As i suspected. Ok so after flying the BTT Ceaser, the banking feels right. What ever they did to the Apex version of Flight model parameters, feels nice. It doesn't drift as much, and the plane drops when you knife edge, which is how it should be for all the planes, instead of that drift we have now. Also, when you snap it back up right, it snaps into place. It should be quick like this, and shouldn't take a few seconds for it to align straight again. 

[oukej 2910]

8 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

 What ever they did to the Apex version of Flight model parameters

The airplanes released in expansion were first to fully utilize several new config properties (e.g. draconicTorqueXCoef). They were mainly useful for stall/restricting airplanes from flying backwards :D, for slip/skid or better representation of control surface efficiency vs. airspeed. Other than that we've played more with mass distribution and fine tuned properties via arrays.

[xon2 102]

@oukej So i reckon the FM enhancements implemented with the Apex Aircraft will also be implemented for the old arma 3 CAS planes and for the upcoming dlc jets? Right now, the new jets FM seems to be modeled like the old CAS planes. Will those Apex FM improvements be added to all aircraft with the jets dlc release on may 16th, or will this be implemented more slowly over the coming month?

[five_seven5-7 56]

The new jets start to lose hydraulic controls (just freeze) above 12000 meters, just turn into a flying brick.IRL service ceiling its about 14000 in these jets.

 

Can we have pradlt-glauert singularity aka vapor cones?

[venthorror 117]

20 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

Not everyone uses a stick. So when i hold down S, it's not as efficient as pulling 80-75% on a stick in order to not stall out.

I understand, and think it is properly balanced. Holding keyboard key equals in-game "pilot" maintaining AOA. Hence those shaking effects indicating AOA being on the edge.

 

Here is a video showing what I mean. It is long and boring but shows my point.

You can perform inside loop with gryphon and continue doing it without losing power. (for a long time)

Same goes for Wasp and Shikra but those two have different stall speeds and can stall sooner.

In a flight sim (keeping in mind we are not going for that, but just mentioning) I was not able to make two connected inside loops without picking up some power between the first and second.

Spoiler

 

 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

6 hours ago, oukej said:

The airplanes released in expansion were first to fully utilize several new config properties (e.g. draconicTorqueXCoef). They were mainly useful for stall/restricting airplanes from flying backwards :D, for slip/skid or better representation of control surface efficiency vs. airspeed. Other than that we've played more with mass distribution and fine tuned properties via arrays.

I see... It would be great if the flight models can remain the way they are, but with a better feeling bank physics like the Ceaser has, but optimized for jets. Of course banking in a jet won't be the same as banking in a ceaser prop. 

[Flax 397]

12 hours ago, oukej said:

The airplanes released in expansion were first to fully utilize several new config properties (e.g. draconicTorqueXCoef). They were mainly useful for stall/restricting airplanes from flying backwards :D, for slip/skid or better representation of control surface efficiency vs. airspeed. Other than that we've played more with mass distribution and fine tuned properties via arrays.

 

The APEX planes certainly feel the best of the lot - when you say "first to fully utilize" does that mean exisiting and future aircraft will get a pass using these new config properties?

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

4 hours ago, venthorror said:

Here is a video showing what I mean. It is long and boring but shows my point.

You can perform inside loop with gryphon and continue doing it without losing power. (for a long time)

Same goes for Wasp and Shikra but those two have different stall speeds and can stall sooner.

In a flight sim (keeping in mind we are not going for that, but just mentioning) I was not able to make two connected inside loops without picking up some power between the first and second.

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Its also worth mentioning that the Gryphon (gripen) is way smaller than the other jets, leaving better thrust to weight ratio's. The fifth gen aircraft also have thrust vectoring, which in itself is great for high altitude maneuvering, as well as pulling some fierce maneuvers, it also has the down side of shortening turn fights over a prolonged amount of time, unless the planes could use after burners. However though, the 5th gen jets are already faster than the Gryphon without it.

[pharohx 10]

Hello all!

As a very seasoned Sim Pilot and ARMA 3 fan, so I decided to take a look at the new Jet DLC through the Dev Branch. Great work so far but I do have a few concerns that the search engine did not return results for.

 

CORNER SPEED: Seems as though velocity has VERY little affect over NOSE TURN RATE (NTR). It was difficult to tell where the CS was for any of the jets unless at extremes in the flight envelope. I was able to maintain a stable and consistent NTR from 600 to 200 knts. That cant be right. Of course I have little to discern Turn Radius (TR) but if I'm at GUNS radius I really just want to maintain Lag Pursuit (LGP) until I have an opportunity to pull a split second Lead Pursuit (LEP) to put nose on to kill the Bogey... right?

 

So IF there is a CS that you guys have been able to detect, that matters, let me know.

 

RUDDER AUTHORITY: ARMA has always had a different RA usage, when it comes in and out so I'm OK in a way. HOWEVER on the ground, it seems that the RA has more impact the the NOSE WHEEL STEERING SYSTEM (NWS). I can hardly turn around on the runways, a VERY simple task for any modern JET. I have no idea how one would be able to navigate around a carrier deck with such limiter NWS.

 

Have others notice this?

 

Thanks for your time reading this.

 

 

 

[dragon01 902]

Check out Caesar BTT from Apex (the racing version, especially). The DLC jets don't have the flight model fully configured, Caesar uses a number of config parameters that might give a more realistic turning behavior.