Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[scavenjer 112]

11 hours ago, scratch_one said:

Tested Pov hat. And it is not the same. Hearing this  is a joke now//
Also neophrone  due to very low engine power have no chance against black wasp now. Possible to dodge from few AA missiles but then you got stuck. It strickting the choice to dlc jets only. Which is in valuables of diversity is sad.  
GBU bombs are useless now. Dropped 2 bombs on sorcer, one directly and one in a half meter from. E arty still alive. Very nice.
So many bugs.

First of all, you're trying to dogfight an enemy air superiority plane with a CAS plane....
Secondly the rudder is a known issue and being worked on, thirdly the bombs disable any vehicle upon direct hit, sure they don't blow it up in one hit anymore, but that's partly due to the new damage model system.

[scratch_one 0]

22 hours ago, scavenjer said:

First of all, you're trying to dogfight an enemy air superiority plane with a CAS plane....
Secondly the rudder is a known issue and being worked on, thirdly the bombs disable any vehicle upon direct hit, sure they don't blow it up in one hit anymore, but that's partly due to the new damage model system.

way higher speed, better maneuverability on it, radar and radio guided missiles,  perk to outrun AA missiles and nice observation -  this is air superiority.  
very low engine power (even civilian airplanes have better characteristics) comparing to the dlc jets make them even better. Beyound the edge of overpower. Why this needed?

[x3kj 1247]

5 hours ago, scratch_one said:

Why this needed?

i cant even...

With your discovery that slow ground attack airplanes are worthless you should tell US and Russian military. I'm sure they will be delighted to know that it really isn't needed. Would save them billions if they would just scrap their hundreds of worthless planes.

[scratch_one 0]

4 hours ago, x3kj said:

i cant even...

With your discovery that slow ground attack airplanes are worthless you should tell US and Russian military. I'm sure they will be delighted to know that it really isn't needed. Would save them billions if they would just scrap their hundreds of worthless planes.

Wait what?
Ask Why i'm here? Why i started this conversation? I placed here my time. I placed here my love for jets. There is few posts from me. Some of them on the previous page. Some of them written under the deep frustration after particular game. Hovewer, with all black color, they have some sense inside.
You know. I believe that the win in deal could be done only when both sides win.
So i tried to stay away from my personal desires and keep on my words going with the facts. I checked what oukej said about tail physics, i compare the video with real jet behaviour and jet in arma. Yes, i keep in mind balance. More, i go further, i took a joystic with the POV hat from friend and checked it too. No problem.

I'm not the real pilot, but have some knowledge in the history of aviation, engines and the things i like  :)
Way back in the past, when i just learning. I watched a lot of videos about dogfight tactis, real dogfight videos and so on. I really loved this thing man. And i feel sad that i can't roleplay anymore. And here goes you. Picking the word from the whole content..I placed everything here i know and i love. And it is ok. I mean, i got what you say really. But the arma line goes far from reallity.  Its not ideal. Hovewer we can keep it at some point. To have a good fight. To have fun.  Thats all i want. I'm over.

[martin_lee 33]

@oukej Regarding keyboard controls, I think that, instead of getting 100% input straight away, may be you can set it so that it gradually increase to 100%. That way you can have slightly better control when tapping the keys. Say, when you press the nose up key, the input goes from 0% up to 100% in 0.1s (or may be even faster, I don't know). The same happens when you let go the key, when it gradually return to 0%. I think that's how it is in Falcon 4 if you use keyboard to control the plane. I quite like the result that way. The control isn't all or none, you can have, say, 60% input if you practice a bit with your tapping. You can just about get a relatively smooth, sustained turn.

 

I think the problem is that in Arma, the boundary between sustained turn and loosing speed like a flying brick is very sharp. You either don't loose speed, or you loose it fast. You need to be quite gentle with the control, and finding that sweet spot requires practice. This sharp wall is what made flying somewhat awkward and difficult.

 

-------------------------------

That being said, I fly with mouse in Arma mostly. To be honest, I don't really see why one would need to use keyboard for pitch (nose up/down) and roll when you can do it with the mouse, you got much better control (yawing, on the other hand...). As long as you move the mouse nice and slow, you can keep a sustained turn without stalling. You can also look around pretty easily.

 

The only time I use keyboard for pitch and roll is when I am using the targeting camera (that's the only way to control the plane at that point). But then again, when that happens, my only concern is to keep my nose from pointing at the ground, so I don't need fine controls.

 

The feel and handling could definitely be improved upon. Right now it doesn't quite have the general feel of a flying game. But flying with keyboard and mouse is doable. Practice with the jet showcase, try to shoot down one jet with missile and then dogfight the other one. Or better yet, make a custom scenario, where you are the leader and give yourself a wingman to chase and shoot down (he won't be evading). Use the mouse, keep an eye on the speed, and try to keep it from dropping. Be patient, and suppress the urge to pull hard when when the enemy moved out of view. Your nose is always lagging behind the enemy. When you think there is an opportunity, only then will you pull 100% (and loose a lot of speed) to bring you nose in front of him, and fire a cannon burst.

[scavenjer 112]

Arma isn't supposed to be a flight simulator and quite frankly it's not realistic to think it can become one.

 

You have to keep in mind that arma is doing combat on multiple scales, infantry, tanks and jets all require different physics and different properties to properly work in a format that leads to enjoyable gameplay.

Name any other game that does all three of these just as well as arma. I doubt you'll find one.

 

Yes there's issues and limitations with all three of these modes, especially with jets because of how complex they are.

 

I realise that arma isn't a simulator, I don't expect it to be.

 

That being said, the biggest issue at the moment is the tail shaking and the way missiles behave, as far as I can tell the devs are aware of it and working on it.

 

As for the assumption that CAS planes are useless, that's quite simply not true.

They simply cannot compare to air superiority fighters when it comes to performance, armament however, they easily beat them in.

 

If you think the engines are weak, I disagree, the neophron can climb vertically without losing speed or atleast without stalling.

The SU 25 IRL could only hope to achieve such things.

Wipeout is actually quite similar to how it performs IRL.

 

As for your POV hat issue, for me it works as it should, I don't really understand what you want it to do.

[scratch_one 0]

On 30.05.2018 at 3:02 PM, scavenjer said:

As for the assumption that CAS planes are useless, that's quite simply not true.

They simply cannot compare to air superiority fighters when it comes to performance, armament however, they easily beat them in.

 

If you think the engines are weak, I disagree, the neophron can climb vertically without losing speed or atleast without stalling.

The SU 25 IRL could only hope to achieve such things.

Wipeout is actually quite similar to how it performs IRL.

It can't anymore. Engine power changed in pack with tail shaking. And become 3 or 4 times lower.  If you seat near the window IRL on airplane when it take off you could see the angle pilots takes to do so. Neophron can't take off on this angle, it will stall now.  Roughtly it tooks 1/3 altis map to reach 2km alt and 500km/h+ speed now. Which is very low

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

1 hour ago, scratch_one said:

It can't anymore. Engine power changed in pack with tail shaking. And become 3 or 4 times lower.  If you seat near the window IRL on airplane when it take off you could see the angle pilots takes to do so. Neophron can't take off on this angle, it will stall now.  Roughtly it tooks 1/3 altis map to reach 2km alt and 500km/h+ speed now. Which is very low

Not sure what you're on about, but the neophron can take off at 230km/h and keep a constant ascend at 40°.

Times from initial acceleration over take off to level flight until 500km/h:

 

• CAS:
  • Wipeout: 54s
  • Neophron: 42s
  • Buzzard: 46s
• Fighter:
  • Black Wasp: 28s
  • Shikra: 18s(!)
  • Gryphon: 27s

You don't seriously expect CAS jets to make a 90° ascend after take off?

 

On 5/30/2018 at 2:02 PM, scavenjer said:

If you think the engines are weak, I disagree, the neophron can climb vertically without losing speed or atleast without stalling.

The only plane capable of doing 90° climb is the shikra, the neophron isn't even close to achieving this.

 

Cheers

 

[scratch_one 0]

22 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

Not sure what you're on about, but the neophron can take off at 230km/h and keep a constant ascend at 40°.

Times from initial acceleration over take off to level flight until 500km/h:

 

• CAS:
  • Wipeout: 54s
  • Neophron: 42s
  • Buzzard: 46s
• Fighter:
  • Black Wasp: 28s
  • Shikra: 18s(!)
  • Gryphon: 27s

You don't seriously expect CAS jets to make a 90° ascend after take off?

 

 I seriously do not expect anything.  As well as I see no point in this change

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

6 minutes ago, scratch_one said:

 I seriously do not expect anything.  As well as I see no point in this change

Neophron will never be better than the Black Wasp or any other fighter in terms of air to air combat.

This will not change, for sure.

 

 

On 5/12/2018 at 10:03 AM, scratch_one said:

I can't afford head tracking to myself.

You can afford a PC that runs arma well enough to be able to fly aircraft, also an internet connection to keep the game updated, yet struggle to buy headtracking equipment that's usually around 150 bucks?

Go help out in a local restaurant during a weekend, should get you covered even at minimum wage.

Headtracking is definitely a gamechanger, even more so if you enjoy flying planes/choppers.

 

Cheers

[scratch_one 0]

28 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

Neophron will never be better than the Black Wasp or any other fighter in terms of air to air combat.

This will not change, for sure.

 

 

You can afford a PC that runs arma well enough to be able to fly aircraft, also an internet connection to keep the game updated, yet struggle to buy headtracking equipment that's usually around 150 bucks?

Go help out in a local restaurant during a weekend, should get you covered even at minimum wage.

Headtracking is definitely a gamechanger, even more so if you enjoy flying planes/choppers.

 

Cheers

I live in Russia.  At the time I bought PC my monthly salary was around 10k$. Situation in country hardly changed in the last few years. It is almost nothing now. And yeah,   I'm keeping a family now :)

 

PS I do not want to see neophrone better than the wasp.  That was one of the reason I used to fly on neo in the past. But I want to have a chance against. To survive.  To show the fangs 

[dragon01 902]

Yeah, where I live, minimum wage here is 4$ per hour, on a good day. I find it rather annoying that people whose currency is actually worth something go "come on, it's so cheap!" to people who can earn (after taxes, rent, etc.) earn less than 150$ per month. And yes, it is possible to have a decent computer despite that, usually by saving up, buying used parts (usually from westerners who throw money at every version number increment) and knowing where and when to look. Internet connection is not a problem since just about everything except computer parts have prices set on a per-market basis.

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

13 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

Yeah, where I live, minimum wage here is 4$ per hour, on a good day. I find it rather annoying that people whose currency is actually worth something go "come on, it's so cheap!" to people who can earn (after taxes, rent, etc.) earn less than 150$ per month. And yes, it is possible to have a decent computer despite that, usually by saving up, buying used parts (usually from westerners who throw money at every version number increment) and knowing where and when to look. Internet connection is not a problem since just about everything except computer parts have prices set on a per-market basis.

So saving up, knowing where to look is possible when buying a 1500+ PC but not for a 150 trackIR?

Nowhere did I state "come on, it's so cheap", you got to earn stuff if you want it.

If you're only earning 150$ a month then buying headtracking for a video game would be the least of my worries.

 

Cheers

[dragon01 902]

The trick is that you're not buying a 1500$+ PC, plain and simple. You carefully monitor available options and build yourself a respectable machine for what amounts to 250-500$. Price of computer hardware drops quicker than its performance increases, and if you're used to being smart with money, spending 1500$ (which is 5000 in my local currency) is a waste. Since these days any job above the lowest level requires some sort of personal computer, it's a necessary investment anyway. Bells and whistles like TrackIR aren't.

 

People live here for far less than 150$, at least in terms of balance (that is, money that's left after you pay your bills). Where I live, you can live fairly comfortably with that much, as long as you don't need to support a car or another person. This is the case in many countries with good living standards and weak currency. Just because dollar value seems silly doesn't mean we all live in run-down shacks.

[Beagle 684]

I must add that is is near impossible to get any decent and comfortable flight characteristics out of ArmA III without using a Joystick... or even better a HOTAS with pedals. Goes for aircraft, helicopters, even vehicles. You can't exspect wonders with Keayborad and mouse.

 

TIR is not all that much of a factor wth a HOTAS since most of them have enough mappable ioptions for view, including mouse emulation on a ministick.

 

On the other side, unsing a analogue device clearly shows the lack of proper FM and physics in all of ArmA III and the fact that input options for all the different classes is not the strenght of the series.

[dragon01 902]

What you actually need is a 3-axis analog control with some sort of POV device. This is actually a rather affordable peripheral. May be a joystick or gamepad, the former is probably better. A full HOTAS enhances the overall experience greatly, whether car, tank or aircraft, but it isn't a necessity by any means.

[Beagle 684]

Usually one would not buy a full HOTAS with pedals for ArmA III, but if you're into Sims anyway, its works well in ArmA III too. I doubt that there are players who use only this one game alone all the time.

[scratch_one 0]

@oukej Any news on jet behaviour update?

[Callsign 128]

On 31/05/2018 at 6:37 PM, Beagle said:

I doubt that there are players who use only this one game alone all the time.

 
Well this is awkward...

[D_Donskoy 50]

On 31.05.2018 at 4:25 PM, scratch_one said:

I live in Russia.  At the time I bought PC my monthly salary was around 10k$. Situation in country hardly changed in the last few years. It is almost nothing now. And yeah,   I'm keeping a family now :)

 

PS I do not want to see neophrone better than the wasp.  That was one of the reason I used to fly on neo in the past. But I want to have a chance against. To survive.  To show the fangs 

"Я живу в России и тут все сложно" - не позорься ты.

Ты думаешь у них ситуация не сложная?) Везде есть бедные и богатые и те кто между ними. Дружище не вали все на страну))) Я живу в России и у меня ПК за 95000 руб (~1500$) специально для Армы (фанат с 2004 года). И заработал я его себе сам и в России и с 3 детьми + жена))). 

[joostsidy 685]

On 5/31/2018 at 7:37 PM, Beagle said:

Usually one would not buy a full HOTAS with pedals for ArmA III, but if you're into Sims anyway, its works well in ArmA III too. I doubt that there are players who use only this one game alone all the time.

I did buy the whole HOTAS setup specifically for Arma. I don't have the time to invest into the serious sims, Arma is a nice middle ground for me.

[jone_kone 158]

4 hours ago, joostsidy said:

I did buy the whole HOTAS setup specifically for Arma. I don't have the time to invest into the serious sims, Arma is a nice middle ground for me.

 

Also, a hotas is nice for immersion. :) (Even though you cant get the same output for the axis as with a keyboard).

 

[scavenjer 112]

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but is there any info on the rudder fix?

[oukej 2910]

On 7/21/2018 at 6:29 PM, scavenjer said:

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but is there any info on the rudder fix?

Not in the upcoming patch, I am sorry. Will quote the changelog here once this change happens.

[Sc0tt 3]

@oukejWhat about adding engine warm-up time for jets(just like vanilla helicopters)? I think it's very easy to implement.