Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

1 hour ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

 

Both are now a joy to fly and firing the 30mm cannon on the Wipeout is just a treat as it forces the nose up and slows the plane down.  Such a nice little detail that really makes it feel like you're firing something powerful.

 

Landing the To-199 isn't a pain anymore either, it just feels a lot more intuitive.  Nice work!

 

indeed great to hear 

[scavenjer 112]

@oukej

Using the rudder to yaw does induce a skid, however most fly-by-wire systems nowadays and even in the 70s compensated for this occurence, and buffeted it out using some form of PID system.

Things like this can be seen on drones and RC aircraft, most of them use PIDs to prevent this kind of behaviour.

Technically speaking even the aerodynamics of the plane itself cause the skid to be "smoothed out", a pendulum motion like we currently see is very rare to see happen with the aerodynamics of most modern planes (though still possible).

 

From a purely gameplay perspective it's annoying and unlike many other flight sims that proide either fly-by-wire or some form of surface trimming (I know arma also provides some trim but it doesn't really help or improve the issue).

 

I suggest that if one uses full yaw deflection, the plane should still "skid" a bit, but you definitely shouldn't see any kind of pendulum motion like we currently see.

The nose returning after you let go of the yaw controls is definitely a thing though.

 

It's a relatively small gripe, but one that impacts gameplay in a negative way nonetheless.

I'm sure many people will agree and be satisfied if we could atleast severely reduce the aforementioned pendulum motion (though I honestly have no clue how hard or time intensive this would be).

[oukej 2910]

2 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

The nose returning after you let go of the yaw controls is definitely a thing though.

This was the goal, more than yawing back and forth. The "pendulum" might be something to look at. Should be relatively easy to fix. (While retaining that you can't rly turn just by using the rudder). Could u pls list airplanes where this is overdone?

[scavenjer 112]

1 minute ago, oukej said:

This was the goal, more than yawing back and forth. The "pendulum" might be something to look at. Should be relatively easy to fix. (While retaining that you can't rly turn just by using the rudder). Could u pls list airplanes where this is overdone?

Gryphon, Neophron, Black Wasp (most severe) and shikra (also quite severe).

Wipeout not nearly as much as the others, but still noticeable.

I'll make a video on each one in about an hour or so.

[oukej 2910]

Thanks!
 

Just now, scavenjer said:

I'll make a video on each one in about an hour or so.

That's ok, you don't have to :)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Been awhile since i played arma, but upon coming back and flying the Gryphon for awhile it feels like it's been made to stall out far too quickly. It used to be able to hold a sustained turn for a little while before stalling out, which felt really good. I still think in terms of the Gryphon, since it does't have thrust vectoring, it needs to have an adjustment to find middle ground so it doesn't stall out so hard.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

On 4/13/2018 at 12:30 AM, darksidesixofficial said:

Been awhile since i played arma, but upon coming back and flying the Gryphon for awhile it feels like it's been made to stall out far too quickly. It used to be able to hold a sustained turn for a little while before stalling out, which felt really good. I still think in terms of the Gryphon, since it does't have thrust vectoring, it needs to have an adjustment to find middle ground so it doesn't stall out so hard.

 

No change was made to any aircraft other than the Wipeout, Neophron and Greyhawk.

[scavenjer 112]

In fact, gryphon seems to be the only one that can sustain a 250kph turn without stalling out.

All the other ones seem to be able to stall or have severely reduced turning speed at the low speeds.

 

The issue lies with having aircraft that have such complex flight models, the only simulator that gets close is FCS and that's because they put in a metric ton of flight performance data, I had the chance to see what kind of data, it's literally dozens of pages or thousands of lines of code.

 

DCS is a dedicated sim, arma 3 is a massive sandbox with many other elements, having such complex flight models is kind of pointless and extremely hard to get right.

 

So, the way BI has done it with (relatively) easy configs, allow for modding and consistent behaviour.

Though there are definitely issues with it, mainly netcode related, it's quite good for the purposes of armaverse.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I'll have to test some more, but i haven't flown since the testing phase of Jets. I flew the Gryphon the most then because it felt the best out of the lot, at least in terms of the feel.

[oukej 2910]

The stalling is a tricky topic.

• We don't simulate stalling of individual surfaces. And the overall stall is rather very basic.
• With keyboard you always get maximum input. Doing a 360° turn with a fully loaded jet while pulling the stick throughout the whole time wouldn't probably work in a sim. In Arma you can actually do that. HUD says "STALL" but you can still keep turning, even without loosing altitude.
• We still have to allow reasonably sharp maneuvers and they need to come at a cost of a lot of induced drag (otherwise you could be pulling some way too extreme Gs). Rather than holding down the key down indefinitely in turns, feather it, tap it.
• What's probably more important is the recovery speed/time - when you let the airplane fly straight. We've tried to improve that across all jets while still keeping them outside of Falcon 9 territory (aka way too good acceleration when climbing).

 

[scratch_one 0]

"drunk tailshaking effect" on Neophrone
>>

Quote

 

Quote

and which physical thing are you based on when you decide to create a tail shaking echo (*tailshaking youtube)? it make the fly so unconfortable

Fuselage / tail aligning the airplane into the relative wind - when you deflect the rudder in a level flight you're bringing the airplane into a skid.

 

Firstly, i would like to notice that flying like that is very unconfortable, like VR  or 3D cinema for some people. It feels like you literally doing it drunk. I asked my teammates what they think about it and they confirm my thoughts. And this is important

You said:

Quote

"Fuselage / tail aligning the airplane into the relative wind - when you deflect the rudder in a level flight you're bringing the airplane into a skid."

But, why i not see this effect on Shikra? Why i not see this in real life pilot cockpit POV videos?
I mean, if i will use joystick - than it is ok, but i use mouse and keyboard, as most of the pilots do. And i can't control jet like in real life and just like you mentioned because of so. 

btw It looks weird to fly Neophrone on the low speed atm, i do not feel the wind you mentioned, air pressure and engine power. Combining it all, it smells like a toy now :-: 
the same goes for A10, the heavy jet, that have no weight (by the many factors like maneuverability and etc) and for buzzard. I know that you dealing with the code and with the simulation engine you have. And i respect your work. But it really weird now.
As a side effect with this new flying model most of the real jet maneuvers that used while fighting become impossible to repeat. Which is kinda distressing as well

PS for example

Compare this two things
New Arma model

Real POV

 

[scavenjer 112]

@oukej
Actually, I completely forgot about all the other aircraft in the game: Caesar BTT, the UAVs and even Xi-an and blackfish have this to a degree, the tail shaking is exacerbated by many people not using joysticks, I do and I can compensate for it, but for people using keyboard/mouse it's a severe issue, just talked with several good jet pilots that pretty much can't use cannons due to this.

[scratch_one 0]

@oukej 
well, i  would like to say that this is a horrible approach regarding to the people who played arma for the long time. Sayonara

[dragon01 902]

Well, the problem is that if you're trying to be realistic, you will impair controlling aircraft from keyboard in some way. Discrete input is just not suitable to anything that can be remotely called a realistic flight simulation. Most people here seem to want realism, and the unfortunate consequence is the appearance of realistic behaviors that would result in pulling the stick "to the stops" like the keyboard does. If you want to pilot an aircraft like IRL, you need a 3-axis analog controller like a joystick or perhaps a gamepad (a similar arrangement like the latter works for RC drones, so it's probably OK for flying). Simulating analog input with keyboard is clumsy and hard to do right. 

[scavenjer 112]

2 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Well, the problem is that if you're trying to be realistic, you will impair controlling aircraft from keyboard in some way. Discrete input is just not suitable to anything that can be remotely called a realistic flight simulation. Most people here seem to want realism, and the unfortunate consequence is the appearance of realistic behaviors that would result in pulling the stick "to the stops" like the keyboard does. If you want to pilot an aircraft like IRL, you need a 3-axis analog controller like a joystick or perhaps a gamepad (a similar arrangement like the latter works for RC drones, so it's probably OK for flying). Simulating analog input with keyboard is clumsy and hard to do right. 

Even with a joystick (which I use and have lots of experience with) the waggling is quite extreme and makes aiming incredibly difficult, much more than it should be.

Sure, keyboard and mouse will never be as good as a stick, but even that shouldn't be much of an issue.

[scratch_one 0]

On 08.05.2018 at 12:12 AM, dragon01 said:

Well, the problem is that if you're trying to be realistic, you will impair controlling aircraft from keyboard in some way. Discrete input is just not suitable to anything that can be remotely called a realistic flight simulation. Most people here seem to want realism, and the unfortunate consequence is the appearance of realistic behaviors that would result in pulling the stick "to the stops" like the keyboard does. If you want to pilot an aircraft like IRL, you need a 3-axis analog controller like a joystick or perhaps a gamepad (a similar arrangement like the latter works for RC drones, so it's probably OK for flying). Simulating analog input with keyboard is clumsy and hard to do right. 

I have a joystick. It configured for Orca helicopter AFM. The problem with the joystick is that you can't look around. TrackIR is too expensive for me., the other head tracking tools make me feel seasickness.
because of so i can't have satisfaction of the process and fly like this (vs a10) with a joystick.

[x3kj 1247]

whats the problem? you can still look around with mouse if you use joystick. I do it all the time. If you dont want head tracking, and not control view with left hand, you either need to use your feet or grow another right hand...

[scratch_one 0]

5 hours ago, x3kj said:

whats the problem? you can still look around with mouse if you use joystick. I do it all the time. If you dont want head tracking, and not control view with left hand, you either need to use your feet or grow another right hand...

are you nailed your joystick to the table?)   Are you keep in mind that there is not so much people who using joysticks in this game? Even for helicopters. Guess why. What you say is a perversions. Or will give a poor overlooking around. Which means a death on a non radar jets
>> If you dont want head tracking
I can't afford head tracking to myself. I know only one guy who use it actually. From many many good players ;)

 

PS why not introduce AFM for jets? if you want joystick, you turn afm on. If you play with keyboard, you disable it. Everyone will be happy. A nerds like me. A regular players

[scratch_one 0]

Guess it looks like im comlaining, do not want to adapt or imagine an unexisting problems.
As a most of us do, i want to have a satisfaction from the fly.
To have a satifaction: (1) i need a good opponents
(2) i want to roleplay and feel that im really flying on something that really exists in real life
(3) it should be hard

From the large list of a very good players, who flying really nice, using tactics and beat my ass a lot, i have 1-2 guys who still playing. Sometimes there is rising a new star. But it become more an more rarely.  Everyone else using  a dumby radar, dropping from 25km to a very low and still get beaten. Because of no tactics, no manevourous. Currently and more because of no tools (joystic) and because AA missile sucks. You can dodge from AMRAAM without any flares right now. Awfull. And yes, a lot of players not use joystick. We can't drop them. *you still need an opponents.

(2) tail wing shaking kill the realistically dogfight . It is just it. (keep in mind (1))

(3) all pointed early make you literally immortal. And the dogfight looks like a shooting kittens. No fun.

[oukej 2910]

13 hours ago, scratch_one said:

The problem with the joystick is that you can't look around.

What about POV hat? What kind of joystick do you use?

 

13 hours ago, scratch_one said:

TrackIR is too expensive for me., the other head tracking tools make me feel seasickness.

What were the other you've tried so far?

 

2 hours ago, scratch_one said:

(2) tail wing shaking

 

Already acknowledged.

 

On 5/6/2018 at 10:34 PM, scratch_one said:

@oukej 
well, i  would like to say that this is a horrible approach regarding to the people who played arma for the long time. Sayonara

I'm sorry, I didn't get this one. What approach did you mean in particular pls?

 

[scratch_one 0]

On 12.05.2018 at 2:54 PM, oukej said:

What about POV hat? What kind of joystick do you use?

What were the other you've tried so far?

I'm sorry, I didn't get this one. What approach did you mean in particular pls?

 

Tried EdTracker and cap with light diodes on top. Joystick - Thrustmaster T-Flight Stick X.
*the last one - its a long story. Based on posting broken updates with a big bunch of bugs.  Ignoring the troubles (like stack buffer overrun crash while flying for 20min-1.5h or client not responding kicks, and so on). Just steam out.

[dragon01 902]

By "POV Hat" he meant an 8-direction control that is present on most better joysticks (T-Flight X doesn't have it, though). It's in the top right part of the stick:

It allows you to look around very comfortably.

[scratch_one 0]

On 16.05.2018 at 3:17 AM, dragon01 said:

By "POV Hat" he meant an 8-direction control that is present on most better joysticks (T-Flight X doesn't have it, though). It's in the top right part of the stick:

It allows you to look around very comfortably.

Is it provide the same overview flexibility as a mouse? Or just look straight left, straight right, straight top and etc?

[dragon01 902]

That depends on how you configure it (default is flexible for up-down, snap for left-right), but yes, once you get used to it.

[scratch_one 0]

Tested Pov hat. And it is not the same. Hearing this  is a joke now//
Also neophrone  due to very low engine power have no chance against black wasp now. Possible to dodge from few AA missiles but then you got stuck. It strickting the choice to dlc jets only. Which is in valuables of diversity is sad.  
GBU bombs are useless now. Dropped 2 bombs on sorcer, one directly and one in a half meter from. E arty still alive. Very nice.
So many bugs.