Jets - Sensor overhaul (Radars, IRs, Lazors, PGMs)

[dr. hladik 231]

Radar range change and target filtering - it is easy to implement, however it is hard to find keys to control it. Any ideas?

[teabagginpeople 398]

20 hours ago, domokun said:

Yeah you missed the point. Maffa's point is that ships are more suited to Arma's relatively small maps than jets.

While I agree that the lack of amphibious troops is a big inconsistency given that most maps have a coastline and many are islands, I'd in fact argue that tanks are for more relevant given that Arma is essentially an infantry simulator with a few aircraft and ships.

So all Maffa is raising is the question of priorities, legitimately, politely and articulatedly.

 

I didn't miss his point at all. 

 

He said jets dlc does not make sense and why would they do this over a ship one. I said perhaps because other people wanted a jets dlc.

 

When you consider above and take into account there are alot of wheels turning.  ships dlc development time frame wise didn't fit. Jets dlc makes perfect sense. 

[maffa 29]

I wont derail this thread any further, just let me point out a few things.

 

As far as i am concerned, this might be a Sensors DLC with a few goodies thrown in for good measure rather than a Jet DLC. And i consider Tanks DLC a badly needed addition, even though i am not sure what kind of improvements can be added (much to my ignorance about how a tank operates in RL, but im confident that things can and will be improved, if only on the physics side of the thing)

 

And when i speak of a Ships DLC maybe I'd better talk about a Amphibious Ops DLC or Littoral DLC, or even better a Marines DLC. A LHD will serve its purpose even just by standing still as a floating base for the smaller units to start from, but the essential stuff are the landing ships. I should open a new thread about it though 

[metalcraze 290]

2 hours ago, dr. hladik said:

Radar range change and target filtering - it is easy to implement, however it is hard to find keys to control it. Any ideas?

 

For target filtering it's easy - simply show only air targets when A-A weapon is selected (AIM9/AIM120 AMRAAM etc) and show only ground targets when A-G weapon is selected (bombs, AGMs etc). Show all targets when autocannon (on A-10C f.e.) is selected. No need for extra keys since you already have a key for switching weapons. Furthermore show immediate threats in any filtering mode (f.e. incoming missiles or an air/ground vehicle that is locking you). Should be intuitive and decluttered.

 

Radar range can be controlled with keys used for sniper rifle / weapon sight zoom levels for example. While keeping those keys for zoom levels when looking through weapon optics as they are (f.e. gunner position in AH64). Again no need for extra keys. And it makes sense since you essentially zooming the radar itself which is itself a weapon sight for missiles.

[TheMasterofBlubb 10]

Same as metalcraze, but i would prefer the radar hide the targets but make the like 50 % opaque so you have a sitiuational awareness, or color codes for possible targets.

[ampersand38 344]

Using the zeroing keys may conflict with AA vehicle cannons. If it's just 3-4 zoom levels, then Alt + R could work to toggle between them, since Ctrl + R is turn on/off.

[dragon01 902]

I think that "ALT+R" should toggle between ATG and ATA radar modes (and any additional ones that someone might want). They could switch based on the weapon selected, but some (like cannons) can work on both air and ground targets. RWR should be a separate display (could use the old UI), to make a clear distinction between the fire control and missile warning displays. I think HOME and END keys could switch between radar ranges, they're close to zeroing keys and I don't think they do anything useful ATM.

[maffa 29]

 

18 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

I think that "ALT+R" should toggle between ATG and ATA radar modes (and any additional ones that someone might want). They could switch based on the weapon selected, but some (like cannons) can work on both air and ground targets. RWR should be a separate display (could use the old UI), to make a clear distinction between the fire control and missile warning displays. I think HOME and END keys could switch between radar ranges, they're close to zeroing keys and I don't think they do anything useful ATM.

 

well, if you bother going with ALT+ combos why not going on function keys and/or the arrow keys? You could also rotate different pages of MFDs (ATG/ATA/System/etc)

 

8 hours ago, metalcraze said:

 

For target filtering it's easy - simply show only air targets when A-A weapon is selected (AIM9/AIM120 AMRAAM etc) and show only ground targets when A-G weapon is selected (bombs, AGMs etc). Show all targets when autocannon (on A-10C f.e.) is selected. No need for extra keys since you already have a key for switching weapons. Furthermore show immediate threats in any filtering mode (f.e. incoming missiles or an air/ground vehicle that is locking you). Should be intuitive and decluttered.

 

But what about vehicles and systems that have a radar but dont have a weapon? Im thinking about pure radar systems (with server missile station as in a IADS architecture (integrated air defense system) where the missile pods are slaved to a radar site, or more probably scout helicopters (OH-6M scout Littlebird, OH-58 Kiowa, etc)

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

its hard to find good keys for functions

 

most people still dont know jets have an AV camera, and most dont know about tactical ping yet.

 

if these things aren't obvious or communicated somehow, it will only be used by enthusiasts and people who have played a lot of arma.

[metalcraze 290]

8 minutes ago, maffa said:

 

But what about vehicles and systems that have a radar but dont have a weapon? Im thinking about pure radar systems (with server missile station as in a IADS architecture (integrated air defense system) where the missile pods are slaved to a radar site, or more probably scout helicopters (OH-6M scout Littlebird, OH-58 Kiowa, etc)

antiair systems should be AA targets only anyway.

 

For systems with no weapons use weapon switch key to simply switch radar modes - easy.

It can either be a straightforward switch or a dummy weapon that doesn't shoot (like 'horn' for cars) and has radar mode tied to it. Name that dummy weapon "AA radar" and it's done

[hcpookie 3770]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:39 AM, Alwarren said:

Geez this looks great!. Will these sensor changes work with helicopters and shoulder launchers as well? Will that mean that things like LOBL/LOAL, HARM missiles (that lock on active radar source) and top-down attacks might be a possibility?

 

I assume you've investigated my SAM pack for HARM targeting.  It is a user action and can be used BVR.  IMO it is NOT ideal and is based on what I have read for HARM lock capability.  This isn't DCS, I know, but it is a single-action to fire the HARM at the radar target.  It works...

 

 

I too would like to see a specific radar mode for HARM lock ability, which is to say a "filtered" radar view only for those ground vehicles / statics that are active radar emitters.  Considering my previous post, the inclusion of a value such as "activeRadarVehicle" would make this a very easy thing to implement.  And that way only the HARM missiles can lock in that specific radar mode.  If you switch the mode, the lock breaks.  That IMO would be "ideal" for game purposes.

[Will_The_Gamer_PT 25]

Just something a tad bit of topic, when I was testing this new sensors on the dev-branch i noticed that in the L-159 AA the two short range AA missiles are inside the two most outer wing pylon Long range AA missiles instead of being in different pylons

[Sniperwolf572 758]

2 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

its hard to find good keys for functions

 

most people still dont know jets have an AV camera, and most dont know about tactical ping yet.

 

if these things aren't obvious or communicated somehow, it will only be used by enthusiasts and people who have played a lot of arma.

 

While I agree that every key on my keyboard seems to do something in Arma, in this case I think it's acceptable, as the boxes in the UI where sensors show up anyway are controlled by 5 additional different keybinds. You're not gonna jump in the plane and know what the radar does without someone explaining it to you anyway.

 

Improving the first person cockpit experience would be awesome, because even the current HUD/MFD's as is, are unreadable when flying without zooming in. You can tell what a few elements are, but between the zooming in and out based on speed, and the tiny scale, cockpits are really hard to deal with. Sometimes I wish I could incrementally zoom to some point other than 0% and 100% so I can read the HUD and fly the plane.

 

Great majority of the action problems in this game could be solved (and immersion increased) if we could just bind actions to model selections then activate them by pointing at them and pressing a button. But alas, let's not do that because of reasons. I'm absolutely certain I could make a proof of concept for these kinds of actions anywhere as a mod, let alone doing it with full engine access (Fluid Door Opening already does majority of work needed for this). But hey, I guess it's easier for players to deal with the clutter of the current, janky, spastic action menu.

[nodunit 397]

28 minutes ago, Sniperwolf572 said:

 

While I agree that every key on my keyboard seems to do something in Arma, in this case I think it's acceptable, as the boxes in the UI where sensors show up anyway are controlled by 5 additional different keybinds. You're not gonna jump in the plane and know what the radar does without someone explaining it to you anyway.

 

Improving the first person cockpit experience would be awesome, because even the current HUD/MFD's as is, are unreadable when flying without zooming in. You can tell what a few elements are, but between the zooming in and out based on speed, and the tiny scale, cockpits are really hard to deal with. Sometimes I wish I could incrementally zoom to some point other than 0% and 100% so I can read the HUD and fly the plane.

 

Great majority of the action problems in this game could be solved (and immersion increased) if we could just bind actions to model selections then activate them by pointing at them and pressing a button. But alas, let's not do that because of reasons. I'm absolutely certain I could make a proof of concept for these kinds of actions anywhere as a mod, let alone doing it with full engine access (Fluid Door Opening already does majority of work needed for this). But hey, I guess it's easier for players to deal with the clutter of the current, janky, spastic action menu.

For cases of incrimental zooming in I've found leaning in with the 6DOF Ctrl+W works best, of course it doesn't help much on the vehicles that don't allow this feature, such as the buzzard iirc.

[dragon01 902]

Speed-based zoomout needs to go, IMO. It's ridiculous and makes cockpits hard to use. If anything, head movement needs to be tied to acceleration and revert to default after it subsides.

 

As for ARMs, they should have a special, dedicated radar mode activated by selecting an ARM-equipped station (IIRC, it actually works that way in some aircraft). It'd act much like RWR, but would not show incoming missiles, only radars. You could then select a radar and fire at it.

4 hours ago, maffa said:

well, if you bother going with ALT+ combos why not going on function keys and/or the arrow keys? You could also rotate different pages of MFDs (ATG/ATA/System/etc)

Function keys do something already. IIRC, arrows do, as well. Yes, you could put ATG and ATA as separate MFD pages, but with the amount of stuff already there the list will quickly get overbloated. ALT-R is similar to what you use to toggle radar. 

 

As for people not knowing how to use radar, it needs to be shown in a tutorial. Say, VR training for jets DLC. We've got VR lessons for features from helos and marksmen DLC, I see no reason not to have a VR lesson in radar use.

[maffa 29]

19 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

Function keys do something already. IIRC, arrows do, as well. Yes, you could put ATG and ATA as separate MFD pages, but with the amount of stuff already there the list will quickly get overbloated. ALT-R is similar to what you use to toggle radar. 

 

Control + function keys (or even better ctrl + arrow keys) arent currently used by anything, and in any case airplane and helicopter have their own dedicated keyset. I understand that you dont have any time to browse thru pages in a jet in a 30x30 map (see my opinion on the topic of having jets operating on Altis) but i can see workable MFDs on apaches and blacksharks alright, and then you can have all the time in the world. Then those who have HOTAS can very well map those keys on their joysticks. It doesnt sound too bad to me.

[oukej 2910]

Configuration documentation: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Sensors

Together with updated https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/A3_Targeting_config_reference

 

Please take a look at it, TRY IT, and share you feedback what you were or weren't able to achieve with it. And mainly - have fun!

[dragon01 902]

I can see RCTRL+Arrows being usable, though remember that MFD toggles are already there (the bracket keys). IMO, a single "radar" MFD that can be switched between different modes with another key combination is a better idea. Ideally, the MFD would be diegetic and modes toggled by a button in the cockpit, but it's unlikely. Function keys are used for squad management, so it doesn't matter if you're in a plane or not.

 

EDIT: Ninja'ed. That sure looks impressive. I'm not a modder, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what our community's config wizards can achieve with it. It seems like it has everything to simulate radars from early Cold War-era systems to futuristic ones.

[dezkit 28]

Are you guys planning on adding the sling load camera as a sensor? It's the one where you press control + right click inside a Helicopter.

[DSabre 2332]

All my aircraft with radarType = 0; now have a radar. Is there any way I can disable it?

 

[chortles 263]

9 hours ago, dezkit said:

Are you guys planning on adding the sling load camera as a sensor? It's the one where you press control + right click inside a Helicopter.

I believe you mean RCtrl+B? As per the custom info thread it will be a display module in either of the two windows with the keybind switching your main window directly (instead of cycling to it with the bracket keys).

[Sniperwolf572 758]

2 minutes ago, chortles said:

I believe you mean RCtrl+B? As per the custom info thread it will be a display module in either of the two windows with the keybind switching your main window directly (instead of cycling to it with the bracket keys).

I think he means the secondary downward pointing camera that can be opened with Ctrl+RMB. Sling Load Assistant is already a part of the custom info.

[S3blapin 15]

FEEDBACK & IMPROVEMENT

 

The new system of Sensor is awesome. It depict quite correctly the IRL sensor system and i'm really happy with the direction you devs decide to go.

 

But here is some stuff that I think would need some change/to be added to improve snesor and jet in general:

 

- You can't resize the Radar screen (and the second custom info screen btw).

- The target seems to magically pop up when they enter in the sensor area. Add some kind of abillity to hide, especially for ground vehicle would be nice (against visual sensor)

- I don't know if it's planned, but it would cool to see which kind of guidance missile/bomb have, so we would know if we have to use our active radar or not.

- Only give the name of the target when it enter in the Visual sensor area, and not immediatly

- I wasn't able to switch between target without aiming at them. It could be a good idea if we could that between target marked by radar, from the closest to the farest target.

- Add a new option for the TGP to directly lock the target we marked in radar (I believe it's Ctrl+T to lock the TGP on ground, so why not RAlt+T)(Extend it to drone maybe). It could fit perfectly with the ability to switch between target.

- Add a "Maintain Altitude" functionality in jet. This is really needed, especialy when in TGP. The jet would only care about ASL so you still ahve to care about montain etc.

- Since you change the damage model of Jet and that they can be damaged in wings/flaps, greatly reducing the jat capacities to fly correctly, allow us to TRIM like with Chopper. It can also be usefull combined with a "Maintain Altitude" feature.

- Remove the PIP fog, or find a way to get rid off/adjust it (maybe add a slider and let the player adjust it). It totally reduce the purpose of PIP view, especially in jet when the driver cam show the TGP view (really cool).

- LASER ON TGP! It's really needed, just to improve the teamplay.

- Add a indication on the TGP to show the direction in which the jet move (really usefull when you track a target)

 

 

That's the main change I would like to see. I know some of the change don't belong in this topic but I will transfer them when I have more times.

[oukej 2910]

52 minutes ago, S3blapin said:

- You can't resize the Radar screen (and the second custom info screen btw).

We wanted that as well. This is more of a limitation of the Custom info panels system. Because it allows to show the same element twice feeding the dimensions into the elements separately would be more complicated and would need a different approach. You can at least reposition them.:/
 

52 minutes ago, S3blapin said:

- The target seems to magically pop up when they enter in the sensor area. Add some kind of abillity to hide, especially for ground vehicle would be nice (against visual sensor).

Currently the configuration allows the IR/Vis sensors to see well against ground clutter. We'll tweak that. Ideas & feedback is welcome.

 

52 minutes ago, S3blapin said:

- LASER ON TGP! It's really needed, just to improve the teamplay.

Will happen :)

 

Many thanks for all the other notes - some valuable feedback!

[S3blapin 15]

That's some good news! :) thanks for the answers.

 

I really like flying in Arma3 and I'm happy to see some improvement for Air vehicle. There's still some stuff that I would change, but that's mainly minor stuff not directly related to plane/sensor (like improve the Flight Model. Well if you have just one change to do, I would choose: allow us to use our complete throttle stick. right now you can only use the upper half)

 

I will try to find some other minor ideas for jet/sensor/turret (like is it possible to have the lock feature we have on the TGP but on chopper?)