Co-op Campaign: APEX PROTOCOL

[BL4DE 91]

Now that I think about it this respawn thing might be temporary solution but thats just a guess. They said they are postponing the Revive system for later patches which might possibly replace respawns in Apex Protocol and make it more like Harvest Red revive system.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Geez, why again be apologetic about it ? I played about 20 minutes yesterday and had to go because I was tired and wanted to go to bed. Of course, I couldn't save.

...

 

Well, that of course means that a mission should not last longer than 20 minutes.  :P

[mistyronin 1181]

Now that I think about it this respawn thing might be temporary solution but thats just a guess. They said they are postponing the Revive system for later patches which might possibly replace respawns in Apex Protocol and make it more like Harvest Red revive system.

That's what I thought too, but Zipper5 precisely stated what were their design preferences.

[Zipper5 74]

Just to reassure you all that we're still listening, a lot of you have made some very good arguments.

 

While I can't say for sure what will or won't change at this stage, I can say that work does not stop at Apex's launch. When there are changes and improvements made in future, you'll be the first to hear about them. You guys taking the time to test the campaign in its work-in-progress state on devbranch means a lot to us, so please keep the feedback coming. :)

[petek 62]

Just wanted to say thanks to Zipper5 for commenting etc.... again as stated a lot of this fine community are very passionate about the game and BIS. One reason I've been here sooo long;-)

[QuiGon 10]

Just wanted to say thanks to Zipper5 for commenting etc.... again as stated a lot of this fine community are very passionate about the game and BIS. One reason I've been here sooo long;-)

 

Indeed, it's good to know that the devs are listening at least.

[lapin 10]

For some reasons i can't start the Exfiltration episode (it's the 5th), the start button is orange.

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

> Classfied

 

[kremator 1065]

^^ CIA will be at your door any minute !

[dsmd 5]

Ok, so I've tried to play only 2 missions -- the first one and the last one.

 

• In the End Game showcase, I got to a final point (great experience, really, better than the campaign itself) only to find out that the upload task was located in the branches of a tree 3 meters above me... so no upload action is available, we've beaten out CSAT attack and nothing happens.
• In the first mission, I've missed one bad guy at an objective, it ran away from me and the objective was not secured. It is not Altis, it's hard to find a guy in this sort of vegetation, even with all this FLIR stuff.
• The mind-blowing AI accuracy is getting really nasty, because on Tanoa, the battle distance is dropped to like 150-200 meters from 300-500 on Altis. I can't even see them, and they are punching holes in my body through the walls. That one is subjective, though.

That was about bugs I've experienced.

 

About the campaign itself, it's more oldstyle Battlefield-like. Absolutely no immersion while playing in SP, I bet that it will be the case for Co-op as well. At least AI mates are absolutely required. 

Maybe, it will be fixed later, but there is no time to look on the map, to think out routes, to pick up load-outs, to study intel (Intel is scarce, though). Anyway, no time to think about briefings, because you get forcibly spawned.

Another point, I thought that spec-ops have more freedom to choose their loadouts that a regular infantry pal. But here we have less freedom of choice than in BF4 or 3. Or in the East Wind, anyway.

 

I personally play Arma for some authentic experience that I cannot afford in real-life, and I really like long routes and optional recon missions, sounds and a beauty of nature while you sit in ambush or try to sneak on enemy and all that romantic stuff... Which isn't really there in that campaign.

 

To sum up, in the east Wind it was more like a living world, while here it is like a competition. I'm disappointed, I saw 3rd party campaigns that were way better. Maybe some of it will be tweaked upon release... I hope.

 

Also, I have a few points about the mission setup.

In the first mission, a group of operators is deployed to secure some objectives. They have thermals, NV goggles and stuff, the Bad Guys don't have anything except the flashlights, and what? They are deployed in the worst-in-the-world time for this kind of combat -- it's too much light for NV, but naked-eye visibility is deteriorated too. Thermals are the only option if you want to spot anyone. I'd better had their commander fired for such a decision, if it's not an emergency.

Also, why they don't have a UAV support, which is a real game-changer in that sort of terrain. They had it on a God-forgotten Altis under more favorable conditions, really.

IMHO, even setting aside resurrections and Rambo gameplay, something seems missed, unthought about.

 

I really, _really_ hope that more official campaigns on this terrain will be released. I hopefully will get through this one, but, coop or not, I don't really think it will be such a great experience as the East Wind, Harvest Red or OA.

[lapin 10]

• The mind-blowing AI accuracy is getting really nasty, because on Tanoa, the battle distance is dropped to like 150-200 meters from 300-500 on Altis. I can't even see them, and they are punching holes in my body through the walls. That one is subjective, though.

 

 

 

True, we're fighting against mercenaries, not "pros", and most of the time the bullet goes in my head.

 

Something like 85% of mydeaths were headshots.

[jinzor 31]

It'd be fantastic if East Wind got a co-op option similar to previous ArmA campaigns (host plays Kerry, three nameless guys just follow / assume vision of Kerry during cutscenes - they're just tagging along for the ride). This is because, when I played with my three friends on Apex Protocol (who are only interested in ArmA for the multiplayer - we played Harvest Red, Operation Arrowhead together in previous titles, which they enjoyed), they were completely confused as to the pacing of the Apex Protocol story - to them, it seemed to just start without any sort of explanation to the situation or goal of the campaign and made absolutely no sense. I was the only one of the group who actually started and completed East Wind - it felt natural that Apex Protocol was really just an ending to East Wind's story rather than a self-containing story of itself. When I was explaining all of this to them, their first question to me was - "is it co-op?" - to which I replied that it wasn't. But... why does East Wind have to not be co-op? I think it could definitely work, a lot of things would need to be altered to fit the other three players, but it could work - it would tie in nicely with Apex Protocol as well, and immediately provide 20 or more missions of official co-op content (I always thought that the "Patrol" sections needed extra squad members any way). 

[madrussian 347]

I beg to differ. You don't allow respawn, you enforce it. You make it part of the mechanic. The apparent high number of enemies also hints that the whole experience is tailored to a respawn system.

But most importantly, by robbing players of the option to save and forcing in Respawn, you make it IMPOSSIBLE to fail. You give an entirely new meaning to "failure is not an option". There will be no "Game Over" screen in a mission that has (unlimited) respawn. Even Call of Duty did not aim so low. Respawn is NOT equal to save points. If you Respawn, all the enemies that your former self killed are still dead. All the ammo that you have fired is back. It robs the game of any form of challenged.

 

...

 

Did you not consider the fact that a game were I cannot fail is an issue?

Well phrased Alwarren, you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Also thanks Zipper5 for taking the time to fill us in, and in such a detailed way.  Hopefully you guys can bring back the essential mechanism of Failure, which is and has always been the backbone of co-op missions in ArmA/OFP.

 

Removing the blanket respawn (or at least making it optional) will go a long way towards maintaining faith with the community.  Beyond that, I'm really hoping we get something more meaningful than unlimited revive coupled with mission failure when "all players happen to be dead at the same time", which imo isn't very satisfying.  Btw- What's so wrong with good old group respawn (perhaps simply as an option)?

[IndeedPete 1038]

It'd be fantastic if East Wind got a co-op option similar to previous ArmA campaigns (host plays Kerry, three nameless guys just follow / assume vision of Kerry during cutscenes - they're just tagging along for the ride). This is because, when I played with my three friends on Apex Protocol (who are only interested in ArmA for the multiplayer - we played Harvest Red, Operation Arrowhead together in previous titles, which they enjoyed), they were completely confused as to the pacing of the Apex Protocol story - to them, it seemed to just start without any sort of explanation to the situation or goal of the campaign and made absolutely no sense. I was the only one of the group who actually started and completed East Wind - it felt natural that Apex Protocol was really just an ending to East Wind's story rather than a self-containing story of itself. When I was explaining all of this to them, their first question to me was - "is it co-op?" - to which I replied that it wasn't. But... why does East Wind have to not be co-op? I think it could definitely work, a lot of things would need to be altered to fit the other three players, but it could work - it would tie in nicely with Apex Protocol as well, and immediately provide 20 or more missions of official co-op content (I always thought that the "Patrol" sections needed extra squad members any way). 

 

That would be a pain to re-work. Rewriting all the scripts and functions to work in MP, and even then, there's probably some SP stuff you just cannot recreate in an MP environment (BIS_fnc_unitPlay on dedis for example). It's an interesting perspective though that people who haven't played East Wind cannot really get into Apex Protocol's story. Totally understandable if you think about it. There was no real recapture of previous events. That raises the question, on which of East Wind's two endings is AP based? Did I miss something?

[1212PDMCDMPPM 200]

Funnily enough at this moment, I mainly play Arma MP Coop 90% and 10% SP, but I haven't been able to convince any of my friends, coop mates and sim-group mates, to play the APEX protocol with the nowadays game-play design (even if most of them, as Arma enthusiasts own APEX and have the dev installed).

 

 

The only friends I managed to convince to play the campaign (before beta release) are the ones that are barely playing Arma at all. In a way, this "campaign" is perfectly designed: a low grade hastly done fragfest that managed to get two sales (ie my 2 friends) and that will be forgotten the 15th of July...

[Wiki 1558]

I liked Zipper5 work on A2 (Operation Cobalt and Blood on the sand).

I wished for something like this for Apex.

[ivan keska 45]

   The campaign I didn't really like, it felt way to short. Like it was just set of showcases put together, all to show us a few new things. Plus it feels like more was suppose to be done but wasn't. Like how in a trailer we saw a seen of Qilin firing at the new NATO heli drone, and the gunship lighting up a small village area.

 

   Plus we have the really issues with the CSAT Vipers, the guys who are doing the thing that black ops groups kinda exist to do, which is to mess up a country (that has value) and help push in some change. They are doing idiotic things like live streaming their extremely top secret operation through a bad comms network and well knowing CTRG (the guys they know who almost stole the device in Altis) is in the area, some how getting messed up by a criminal gang well having better everything, and quite a few more issues. The Vipers who are suppose to be the top tier guys using next generation gear, feel like a let down. They Just didn't feel like this threat that is way above you normal soldier or even your normal special forces.

But will say when you first run into them, that bit was fantastic. The music was perfect for that part, the fog and the fact it was night time also really helped make that scene. So the introduction of them was really really good, in that bit.

 

   The respawn system I don't like, it really dumbed the game down by reducing that "I don't want to die" factor. Would be best to make that a difficulty setting, that way you can have it or not. Plus really doesn't help i can't choose to have AI squad mates when in singleplayer, because they would be really helpful. But both those things were said multiple times already, but need to be said again.

 

   Also a few minor issues like in the mission when you act as forward for Miller and the other squad. They tell you to get moving way to often it seems, and gets really annoying when you trying to avoid death. Kinda encourages you to say **** it and just charge ahead not caring if you get shot.

In the mission where you have to fight on sosuvo island, I don't like how the Militia and CSAT guys are all preplaced. When it sounds like they started to go at it when you arrived. or maybe I just misheard how those event went down.

And you really should give the paramilitary guys night vision, because they are being supplied by CSAT and also really wouldn't be bad to see some with CSAT weapons. But same could be said with the Synikat gang members as well, i just say the paramilitary guys since i'm assuming they are suppose to be former military. Thus would be more likely to go for this gear and know how to properly use it.

[st!gar 3]

I have to agree with the great many people hating the lack of AI-teammates for non-online play. I'm extremely disappointed. Had I known this was going to be the deal, I would never have bought the expansion. Like most people, I sensibly expected it to be an ArmA 2/Operation Arrowhead-type experience, and am devastated that the supposed "singleplayer" (yes, that's what the game has the complete lack of shame to call it.)-experience essentially amounts to playing multiplayer on an empty server. Disgraceful.

At the very least, we should have been given a team of [however many players the game is made for] as AI-subordinates. It baffles me how anything else could even occur to the developers.

I genuinely and unironically consider the current state of the Campaign to be unacceptable.

[lexx 1363]

But will say when you first run into them, that bit was fantastic. The music was perfect for that part, the fog and the fact it was night time also really helped make that scene. So the introduction of them was really really good, in that bit.

 

Yeah, that was awesome. A little bit of a cliché as well, but still the staging is one of the best in the campaign. I really could feel it there.

[johnnyboy 3793]

Pros:

• Tanoa beautiful
• Jungle warfare great
• Like all the new weapons and vehicles
• Mission organization, cutscenes, tasks all presented cooly.
• Voice acting good

Cons:

• Plays like a hallway shooter
• No AI squadmates bad for immersion
• No penalty for respawn bad for immersion
• Respawn with full loadout kit bad for immersion
• Allowing role change bad for immersion
• Invincible friendly AI teams bad for immersion

Major improvement would be to convert this to "Respawn to Group" with 4 playable/AI slots (i.e., allow AI squadmates).

 

Of course, that won't happen, as its too expensive to change direction now I'm sure.

 

Good news is, there's lots of talented misison makers out there, so we  can look forward to lots of Tanoa/Apex fun in the future.

[NoPOW 59]

Cons:

• Respawn with full loadout kit bad for immersion

 

 

Well, not migrating items you picked up during the mission (e.g. UAV console, Viper helmet...) is just as immersion killing for me...

 

Remember how much fun it was back in the days of Resistance to actually scavenge the battlefield? No need for that here, there's actually no need for an inventory screen at all: no micromanagement, just make sure you keep a grenade at hand to blow yourself up - and replenish as by magic.

 

 

EDIT: Not sure CSAT has a powerful weapon, though... ;) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-07/sfeb-cci070116.php

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

What about a system where everyone would have a set number of respawns (shared) and each task finished would add one respawn to the pool? If you run out of respawns and everyone is dead, the mission fails.

[cosmic10r 2331]

Not a bad idea... we were talking about a system where you could only respawn if the surviving player (s) completed the next objective...

I think BB mentioned that...

I think the more options for mission hosts the better...

[SaOk 112]

So far the campaign have been quite blunt (played 4 missions). What is the replayable value BIS is advertising about? Played 2 of the missions twice and both times those were identical. There is some triggers to make soldiers walk at you from tree cover. Else mostly the targets just stand or knee still in static places. There is standing convoys too with soldiers sitting back of the truck. Of course the jungle setting and mission locations are nice, but if comparing to Vietcong or even the addonpack it had, the Apex campaign seems to be very simple and flat. If you take story, respawn menu system and radio chatting out, these kind of missions can be made in half hour. There is no real effort or orginal ideas (e.g. many missions in official arma2 campaign beat these 10 to 1). They should put Buncha back in charge, else they keep creating this cheap CoD wannabe content. These mission use very little the potential the game have. Manhattan, Warfare, Evolution Blue... I miss those real arma times.

[johnnyboy 3793]

 

but if comparing to Vietcong or even the addonpack it had, the Apex campaign seems to be very simple and flat.

I thought Vietcong (by another Czech company Pteronodon) was the best Coop game ever, until OFP/Arma matured.  The first few Apex missions totally reminded me of Vietcong, and I was saddened that the Apex experience wasn't much better considering Vietcong was out in 2003.