Weapon Resting & Deployment Feedback

[Greenfist 1863]

After playing with the resting for a few hours now, the need for an indicator is now even more lower; It's already becoming instinctive to know that the weapon is supported whenever there's an object in the field of view no more than about 30cm away from your nose. And that's only because it works with any single object, and very reliably.

Of course if you move while aiming through scope or zoom in, you can't see if the weapon "drops" off the surface but that can be easily predicted, so you just quickly right-click out to see where you are and back in and adjust accordingly.

But still, a sound or a tiny camera shake (or a really quick sight misaligment) would make the system more immersive.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Greenfist

[Brisse 78]

danczer: Apparently they are looking into that solution, but it wasn't ready for dev-branch release.

Greenfist: I agree. It quickly became something you do instinctively. Personally I don't need indicator, but it might be useful for newcomers I guess.

[CaptainObvious 95]

A small generic rattle from the gun and a slight camera twitch would suffice for an indication IMO.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

When you rest your weapon on something, it's generally a small shuffle sound. Klink of mental/material on another surface or object. In unison with some kind of subtle movement. I'd just really prefer that over more icons. Or better yet, make it an option.

[becubed 24]

I've come across an issue since the last update that I think may be related to this.

I play with aiming deadzone on and now if I move forward with a weapon raised after a short time I cannot turn left or right with a light mouse move, you really have to give the mouse a good flick to get it to turn. It doesn't happen if you have no deadzone set.

Anyone else have this issue?

Edited February 22, 2015 by becubed

[megagoth1702 252]

I love the idea of this but I need an indicator, "is my weapon rested now or not". I don't mind a small icon next to the stance. I'd prefer a little "snap" animation with a small sound and bit reduced mouse sensitivity, like in arma2 ACE.

[NoPOW 59]

Now the torso/shoulders are the pivot point of a rifle when aiming; maybe having it pivot around the point where it rests might be the needed indication...

[twisted 128]

Now the torso/shoulders are the pivot point of a rifle when aiming; maybe having it pivot around the point where it rests might be the needed indication...

that would be the most intuitive solution closest to the experience of doing it for real, I suggested something similar but the feedback was deployement is coming later. one thing i dont quite enjoy is the magic forcefield effect rather than actually being weapon resting. Ideally the weapon resting should snap to the surface and then actualy rest on it, the magic force field effect is what's casuing the confusion.

[roshnak 41]

You guys are describing they way bipods are going to work.

[-Coulum- 35]

I am pretty confident BIS is going to put in some form of optional indicators based on the overwhelming feedback.

Now I know I am probably the only one, but I think there is some flaws in the current resting system that make it somewhat "arcadey". Mainly the instant speed at which resting takes place and the unlimited range of motion you have while resting your weapon. I made a video to better explain/demonstrate:

What do you guys think?

[bad benson 1733]

well yea i agree on all points you made. and i have to say that instead of using auto resting, using a button like all the resting mods did would solve that problem. i get the concept of the reset that you mentioned (when turning) but reading the discussion about the icon i have to say that that would complicate things even more. "am i resting again, yet?".

it's just a fundamental design flaw of autoresting implemented in such a simplistic way (fatigue deja vu... :p). to me having to consciously engage in resting would solve all these problems and that is what made the resting mods so great. the way you could lose grip once you turned too far. that could only work due to the detection being so accurate compared to this vanilla implementation. overall it seems way too forgiving. it's better than not working when it should but i think the detection needs to be much more unforgiving.

that also plays into the problems that sniperwolf described. by wanting to simulate side resting (on walls) too using a very simple system the devs are wanting too much while not putting in the extra work imho (no offense). this in my eyes (side resting) can only work with super accurate detection, causing the contact to break easily, and even better a real bipod like resting pivot like someone described above. otherwise it will just be what people fittingly described as a force field.

overall it's a good start but now it's like the hold breath feature. it's just there and doesn't seem balanced with the rest at all.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I am pretty confident BIS is going to put in some form of optional indicators based on the overwhelming feedback.

Now I know I am probably the only one, but I think there is some flaws in the current resting system that make it somewhat "arcadey". Mainly the instant speed at which resting takes place and the unlimited range of motion you have while resting your weapon. I made a video to better explain/demonstrate:

What do you guys think?

Interesting. I guess though, someone could rest your gun and fire a shot reall quick if they're good at it. And you can't really replicate skill in most games. The best way around unbelievably quick rest and shoots would be an inertia penalty. As soon as you rest your weapon, it's sways a bit before settling, acting as the player getting the fun stable. This would mean that you don't instantly line up a shot, but it takes a few seconds more.

[Nicholas 5]

Weapon resting does not happen instantly. It's because you're already near/up against a object that supports resting. It would be ridiculously time consuming to model each object to have resting "zones" so the current method of doing so is good. But, changing stances should disable the resting feature for about 2-3 seconds. Rotating beyond 60° (30° to the right or left of the player) should also disable the resting feature until 2-3 seconds after the player stops moving.

You talk as if this is the final version of weapon resting that will be pushed to the game. This feature was literally just introduced, so of course it isn't going to be perfect. It is the development branch, after all....improvements will be made and what you see will most likely not be the final version.

2-3 seconds to initially rest your weapon.

2-3 seconds to rest your weapon after you've changed stances.

2-3 seconds to rest your weapon after you've stopped moving from beyond a 30°-60° angle. Moving within that angle will retain resting.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Nicholas

[the_demongod 31]

I am pretty confident BIS is going to put in some form of optional indicators based on the overwhelming feedback.

Now I know I am probably the only one, but I think there is some flaws in the current resting system that make it somewhat "arcadey". Mainly the instant speed at which resting takes place and the unlimited range of motion you have while resting your weapon. I made a video to better explain/demonstrate:

What do you guys think?

The last part (with the long range shot) isn't any worse than the other weapons, but rather a different, separate problem. Those of you who have fired any scoped weapon will know that it's not easy to align a scope and keep it aligned, and if it's misaligned your shot will be off.

For those of you who haven't seen through a scope: here. The slight darkening at the bottom left of the scope picture means the scope isn't perfectly aligned with your eye. It means that the round will not land exactly on the crosshairs.

Scoping in, moving, turning, crouching/standing, etc. all will throw this way off (might end up looking more like this). The inertia update brought similar effects to the collimator optics, but the high-power 2D (and even the RCO/ARCO, really) optics didn't get affected by this. It happened with iron sights and short-range sights, but it really didn't affect longer-ranged optics.

[khugan 24]

Resting a weapon IS passive. Gravity does the work. I don't see why a button should be involved. Now deploying a bipod...? yeah, give me a button.

[EricJ 763]

Agreed as it's an ingrained reflex. I finally got devbranch and other than the weird ass debug screen in the middle of the screenish resting was pretty nice, the good thing is that you don't have to worry about a script causing errors when reloading.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Agreed as it's an ingrained reflex. I finally got devbranch and other than the weird ass debug screen in the middle of the screenish resting was pretty nice, the good thing is that you don't have to worry about a script causing errors when reloading.

This^

Weapon resting was implemented to introduce a rewarding factor to tactical positioning, and shooting. Bipods, are a whole new story. That's going to be more involved, as it's the physical gun to surface pivot point that resting is starting to sound like. Though, resting is close, expect with more movement, less restriction, it needs to stay very simple. I feel that i can go prone, or jog up to a rock, rest my weapon for better accuracy, i can do that, and change angle willingly depending on enemy position. Though, resting isn't always perfect as shown with those VR blocks. I started a mission on a hill, and had a HARD time finding the perfect rock to rest on, and shoot while moving around. I could only aim in certain areas because there is one rock, one enemy direction, if you get what i'm saying. Ill try to make a video tomorrow.

[twisted 128]

You guys are describing they way bipods are going to work.

no friend, that's also how weapon resting works in the real world. and why it's non intuitive to tell if the gun is supported becuase it doesnt act like you'd expect. No one expects to have a table to support your gun if you dont actually put the gun on it .

now i know BIS may not be planning to do it this way (certainly doesnt seem so) but really the best implementation would mimic how its done out in the field rather, than with force fields and proximity values. maybe when deployemnts come then deploying a weapon would be possible actually on objects without bipods, aka place part of weapon on wall and you can pivot around that part, but that's not been announced yet so it's worth discussing.

PS - madly excited for bipods. and reallly like the effects of weapon resting right now, just question the way it gets activated is all.

[roshnak 41]

I am pretty confident BIS is going to put in some form of optional indicators based on the overwhelming feedback.

Now I know I am probably the only one, but I think there is some flaws in the current resting system that make it somewhat "arcadey". Mainly the instant speed at which resting takes place and the unlimited range of motion you have while resting your weapon. I made a video to better explain/demonstrate:

What do you guys think?

I don't really have a problem with the unlimited range of motion while weapon resting, although I don't think I would mind if there were still inertia penalties, either.

I think the second issue could be solved with some proper weapon collision. I would really love if BIS stole Infiltration's weapon collision model, but since that's almost certainly not going to happen, I think resetting the weapon resting after stance changes would work well enough. I don't know if increased sway is really necessary, though.

i get the concept of the reset that you mentioned (when turning) but reading the discussion about the icon i have to say that that would complicate things even more. "am i resting again, yet?".

I don't know if it would really be confusing at all with an icon, though. Icon disappears: You're not rested anymore. Icon reappears: You're rested again.

no friend, that's also how weapon resting works in the real world. and why it's non intuitive to tell if the gun is supported becuase it doesnt act like you'd expect. No one expects to have a table to support your gun if you dont actually put the gun on it .

now i know BIS may not be planning to do it this way (certainly doesnt seem so) but really the best implementation would mimic how its done out in the field rather, than with force fields and proximity values. maybe when deployemnts come then deploying a weapon would be possible actually on objects without bipods, aka place part of weapon on wall and you can pivot around that part, but that's not been announced yet so it's worth discussing.

PS - madly excited for bipods. and reallly like the effects of weapon resting right now, just question the way it gets activated is all.

You appear to have misunderstood me. I didn't say anything about how things work in the real world. I said that you were describing the way BIS intends for bipods to work. Weapon resting vs. bipod deployment is supposed to be a tradeoff between mobility and stability. BIS has stated that it is their intention to differentiate the way these two systems work, so I very much doubt if they intend to allow you to deploy your weapon without a bipod.

Edit: As for your table example, I could argue that the act of walking up to a table such that my gun is positioned a short distance above the surface of the table signifies my intention to rest the weapon on it. Why shouldn't I expect the game to know that this was my intention and rest my weapon for me? Why add an extra button to lower my weapon by two inches?

I mean, Red Orchestra was a pretty well regarded tactical shooter that featured automatic weapon resting similar to current system in Arma 3 and people didn't seem to find it all that unintuitive.

Edited February 23, 2015 by roshnak

[Defunkt 431]

2-3 seconds to initially rest your weapon.

2-3 seconds to rest your weapon after you've changed stances.

2-3 seconds to rest your weapon after you've stopped moving from beyond a 30°-60° angle. Moving within that angle will retain resting.

I agree with Coulum and the above is all that would be required to fix it but I think anything beyond 15° should require 're-resting'.

[drill 1]

I agree with Coulum.

As of "unlimited range of motion while weapon resting" I think it could be solved the following way: there should be more weapon inertia when weapon rested than in unrested state (opposite to how it is now). This would simulate the need for reestablishing of rested weapon when the weapon is turned (or, otherwise, the need to move body for turning the weapon around resting point). This would also simulate that nearby objects (on which we rest the weapon) might impede fast weapon turning to desired direction.

That extra weapon inertia wouldn't hurt firing on distant targets but would help to reduce the flaw Coulum described. And moreover, this solution of the problem should be easy to implement.

Except of these aforementioned flaws the weapon resting is done very well and is very important feature. Thank you!

[Greenfist 1863]

Introducing inertia/sway when moving the weapon along the resting object would make the aiming more difficult unwantedly when you don't need to use the resting. For example; when you're aiming through an average-sized window, the weapon will be automatically rested constantly wherever you're pointing at. Now if you want shoot something right outside and turn quickly, you'll receive an unrealistic penalty.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

that also plays into the problems that sniperwolf described. by wanting to simulate side resting (on walls) too using a very simple system the devs are wanting too much while not putting in the extra work imho (no offense). this in my eyes (side resting) can only work with super accurate detection, causing the contact to break easily, and even better a real bipod like resting pivot like someone described above. otherwise it will just be what people fittingly described as a force field.

overall it's a good start but now it's like the hold breath feature. it's just there and doesn't seem balanced with the rest at all.

In addition to this, what I said in my previous post, resting is also provided the moment you look straight on at a wall when close to it. While "technically" pressing the muzzle into the wall IRL will make it "stable", I do not think it should apply to the weapon resting mechanics in the game.

In -Coulum-'s example, what is happening is that he is given rested state because of the proximity to the wall in front of him, and to the right side of him. Then he rises up to shoot targets to be "instantly rested", when in reality, he never left the rested state.

I agree, this is a great start, refinements are necessary and I wouldn't give up on it being an automatic, passive thing. I think it can be made to work sensibly, it just needs some more tweaking.

I'm assuming the way it works right now is two polys detecting collisions and providing resting when they're colliding with anything. One at the elbow level, one covering the length of the weapon between the two barrel mempoints.

[Brisse 78]

Introducing inertia/sway when moving the weapon along the resting object would make the aiming more difficult unwantedly when you don't need to use the resting.

And this is one of the reasons why I think that the resting should just be disabled if the character point of aim moves above a certain rate. Simple solution. No unnecessary penalty.

[Defunkt 431]

If for whatever reason they're not prepared to do the extra calculation required to make side-resting only useful when it really ought to be I'd be in favour of removing it altogether (vs leaving it as-is).