Ukraine General

[Amra 10]

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/40,1093011-Byly-doradca-Putina-ostrzega-przed-trzecia-wojna-swiatowa.html

""Russia really changed over the last decade. This is now a country of political prisoners, intimidation of minorities, political opposition or gay. Runs a very aggressive foreign policy, whose objective is to outline for the new borders in Europe. This is not a joke. This is the official policy of the government ""

"The goal is the whole Ukraine. Putin wants to create a land corridor from the Crimea to Transnistria, already controlled for some time by the FSB (former KGB). (...) And as President Barack Obama and European nations are not willing to use any real measures against Russia, the achievement of this goal is only a matter of time - warned Illarionov.

In his opinion, in 2008 Putin from further invasion of Georgia stopped the decision of the then U.S. President George Bush to send to Turkey and Romania units of the air force and navy on the Black Sea. "As soon as the Russian intelligence has detected a mass movement of American troops in the direction of Georgia, Medvedev and Putin issued an order to stop 35 miles from Tbilisi. It was August 12, 2008""

"In the opinion of former advisor to Putin, most of the Russian society has undergone "brainwashing" in the past 15 years. "Many people really like the imperialism and the drive to recover the historical lands. Recovery Crimea greatly increase the popularity of Putin.'ll Be considered almost as God. And anyone who opposes it will be crushed" - he said."

"For Western financial sanctions against members of the Russian government is, according Illarionov too late. "None of them have not yet introduced. Yet even as this happens, it will be too weak. Putin and his friends from last year, began to withdraw their assets from the U.S. and Europe to Russia. Were preparing the attack on the Ukraine - he said. - Now is the time only to demonstrate its readiness to use military force. ""

He must be writing this from deep underground KGB prison in his freetime until next torture for his love of freedom and democracy.

[krycek 349]

I should be laughing but this is actually sad,Putin is trying to brainwash crimeans with '41 rhetoric like "we're Captain Planet,rest of Ukraine there be evil fascists in the woods".I said sad because it seems some people there(most?) actually believe it.True I assume the local media like TV station or newspaper is in russian hands but c'mon,no one has a damn net connection in there??

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26515049

Edited March 10, 2014 by Krycek

[Colossus 2]

Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum - RT

So much for votes, eh? :rolleyes:

[Brisse 78]

Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum - RT

So much for votes, eh? :rolleyes:

And thats why I told Spooky Lynx earlier that he has to read between the lines on the second choise on the referendum ballot. I knew this was going to happen, and that the voters would be denied the option to stay as an autonomy of Ukraine.

Edit: Okay, let me explain more thoroughly:

The second choise on the ballot was to "Reinstate the 92 constitution and remain an autonomy of Ukraine". The reason I said people need to read between the lines is becouse Crimea cannot remain under Ukraine and reinstate the 92 constitution becouse the 92 constitution actually declares them as independent, thus they cannot at the same time be an autonomy of Ukraine. The second choise on the ballot cannot be legally achived. I hope this became clear to everyone today, after reading the article under colossus link where an Crimean official clearly says: “Crimea won’t be a part of Ukraine even if the ousted president, Viktor Yanukovich, returns to power,â€

Edited March 11, 2014 by Brisse

[Tonci87 163]

And thats why I told Spooky Lynx earlier that he has to read between the lines on the second choise on the referendum ballot. I knew this was going to happen, and that the voters would be denied the option to stay as an autonomy of Ukraine.

We, the members of the parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Sevastopol City Council, with regard to the charter of the United Nations and a whole range of other international documents and taking into consideration the confirmation of the status of Kosovo by the United Nations International Court of Justice on July, 22, 2010, .....

So does this mean that russia will finally recognize the independence of of the Kosovo? They still haven´t done that. No, of course they won´t.

Also LOL about the Billboards. Very predictable russian political propaganda at work.

[Amra 10]

2Tonci: write the name of my country with capital letter please, don't humiliate yourself.

A little note. Don't forget that when you write "Ukrainians want to go to EU" you're doing exactly the same thing which Putin does when he sais "Cremia people want to be a part of Russia". Noone asked Ukrainian people about anything. Even if there were 1 million or even 2 million people on Maidan means absolutely nothing since there live 45 millions. Ukrainians are just a token-coin in political games. Unfortunately.

[mistyronin 1181]

A little note. Don't forget that when you write "Ukrainians want to go to EU" you're doing exactly the same thing which Putin does when he sais "Cremia people want to be a part of Russia". Ukrainians are just a token-coin in political games. Unfortunately.

I agree with you in that statements. IMO all powers should step aside ( that include those "little green men" ), and let the Ukranian people decide their own future. Right now there are national elections in May, that would be a good first step.

Of course all countries of the UN ( European, Russia, American, African, etc. ) should monitorize the electoral campaign and the vote itself to make sure they are neutral and that freedom of speech is allowed, and no one is threatened.

Crimean people should then decide their own future, but again with a true free elections; if its needed with UN forces in the ground to make sure that everyone respects the legality.

But that would be my 'dream', but for what I've seen Putin is not gonna allow that. And if by chance that happened, I've my doubts that the results would be accepted if they are against his interests. But hey, if he did he would have earned a bit of my respect ( and if he even allowed the same in Russia, I'd recommend him to the Nobel prize ).

[Tonci87 163]

The Krim Parliament has decided to seize all Ukrainian ships inside of Krim ports, they will not be returned to the Ukraine. This includes ships still manned by Ukrainian sailors blocked inside harbours. On top of that they also decided to seize all powerplants and the Energy provider Tschernomorneftegas. They also decided to seize every Ukrainian owned company or object. Since the Krim plans to join Russia, all this stuff will go to them and they will effectively eliminate the Ukrainian navy.

I call it theft.

I hope the Ukrainian captains have enough courage and explosives to scuttle their ships .

[scrim 1]

It's never been managed legally. For starters:

The parliament building was seized by Russian solders a long time ago.

The following day the elected representatives were called in, had their cell phones seized, and behind lock and key, under the supervision of masked Russian soldiers, were informed that they were dismissed.

A politician who's party only received 4% of the votes and only had 3 seats in the 100 seat parliament has been appointed the leader.

The unconstitutional decision to hold a referendum on independence would not even have been legitimate if the elected representatives had voted on it, as only between 30-40 turned up, which is below the minimum number required to pass anything.

amra: Stop throwing fits about Russia not being spelt with a capital R. It's not you haven't insulted any other country more by default for the last weeks.

And no, no one has asked the Ukrainians about that. However, only Russia has invaded Ukraine. A Ukraine who's independence, neutrality and borders has been officially and legally acknowledged by Russia on multiple occasions.

Edited March 11, 2014 by scrim

[Tonci87 163]

It's never been managed legally. For starters:

The parliament building was seized by Russian solders a long time ago.

The following day the elected representatives were called in, had their cell phones seized, and behind lock and key, under the supervision of masked Russian soldiers, were informed that they were dismissed.

A politician who's party only received 4% of the votes and only had 3 seats in the 100 seat parliament has been appointed the leader.

The unconstitutional decision to hold a referendum on independence would not even have been legitimate if the elected representatives had voted on it, as only between 30-40 turned up, which is below the minimum number required to pass anything.

amra: Stop throwing fits about Russia not being spelt with a capital R. It's not you haven't insulted any other country more by default for the last weeks.

And no, no one has asked the Ukrainians about that. However, only Russia has invaded Ukraine. A Ukraine who's independence, neutrality and borders has been officially and legally acknowledged by Russia on multiple occasions.

Also why do you think they are not including the "make Crimea an independent state" option on the refferendum? I think that the majority of citizens might be in favour of that. SUre they don´t trust the new Government in Kiew, but I honestly doubt that they trust Putin much more.

[scrim 1]

That they were last time I checked. They get to vote between A, independence, or B, becoming part of Russia. A C option where they would remain part of Ukraine is not something they are allowed to vote for, in this Nazi German-esque charade orcherstrated by the Putinists, under the supervision of Russian soldiers, whip armed Cossacks, and fascist Chetniks.

The only good thing is that maybe now it'll be more common knowledge in Europe why so many Eastern Europeans during the 40's met their Russian "liberators" with weapons in hand.

[spooky lynx 73]

[scrim 1]

Provided you're not slapped by the mods for that Lynx, I'll be sure to respond with pictures of Mussolini trying to look manly, next to pictures of Putin trying to look manly. Believe me, the Putin pictures won't be taken out of context, unlike in your post.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, IIRC, Russians ceased to collaborate with the German Nazis 2 years after the beginning of the war ?

Anyway, it's amazing to use such arguments to justify their will to dominate Ukraine.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[nodunit 397]

Using gestures as an assurance that someone is nazi...now that is as low as this is.

[mistyronin 1181]

Interesting news:

( RIA Novosti ) Russian Paratroopers Hold Massive Drills as Crimea Vote Nears

( NY Post ) Ukraine’s Ousted Leader Urges Military to Resist New Government

( Yanukovych speech from Kyiv Post ) Yanukovych: 'I will return to Kyiv'

( Kyiv Post ) SBU detains a Russian saboteur in Donetsk

- - - - - -

Lynx, trying to call nazi a politician just because of his gestures is really low level and weak propaganda.

It would be more interesting if we make comparisons between his speeches and Hitler ones, or Putin's and Hitler ones... Then we would see who has more similarities.

Even more interesting is compare Putin's actions in the last years with Hitler's before the WW2.

Edited March 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

Provided you're not slapped by the mods for that Lynx, I'll be sure to respond with pictures of Mussolini trying to look manly, next to pictures of Putin trying to look manly. Believe me, the Putin pictures won't be taken out of context, unlike in your post.

I'll look at it with pleasure because I have LOTS of uncomfortable questions to both Putin and EdRo in case of internal politics.

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:56 ----------

I know that for a Russian, to travel in Europe is really expensive, but I really recommend you to visit countries like France, Spain, UK, Italy, Sweden and Germany for example. I think you'll change your mind in a lot of ways.

Between my immigrant acquaintances and friends ( that have moved to Finland or other EU countries that I've lived ) there are different Russians ( a couple of them is trying to teach me some Russian ), one girl from Estonia ( although ethnically Russian ), Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Ukrainian... so you can imagine if from ex-soviet countries they move to EU or not... BTW I've only meet one African guy from Senegal, one of my good friends is Irakian, and a couple of South Americans... BTW yeah, my mom call me the UN... ( but I like to learn from people from other countries ) xD

One of my friends lives in Barcelona (he's Russian too), so I'll definitely visit him some days, it's not so expencive.

It's curious, because the Russians say that the situation there is quite screwed up economically, and about Putin don't want even to comment...

From what my friend says (being Spanish resident since 2003) things there really screwed up. Yeah, comparing with Moldova or Baltic countries it's okay indeed, but still...

As today, doesn't seem to be a huge political or social movement to unite with Russia, and don't have any acquaintance from there.

They are quite happy with opportunity to work here without any visa problems and send a cash to the families in Georgia. So they successfully sit at two chairs. This is what I hate most of all in case of post-USSR countries - combination of moaning about Soviet/Russian occupation but at the same time working (in many times illegally) in a country they blame and enjoying all the benefits it has. From this point of view I respect Baltic countries much more - at least they are consistent in their rhetorics and ideology and deal with EU and US mostly.

What? I lived in different western European countries, I speak a few languages ( English, French, Spanish, Swedish and Finnish; and a bit of German ), and everyday I read different newspapers from different countries ( to keep my language skills ); and in none of those countries any media was criticizing the Olympic games, nor the Russians, nor its culture. In fact it was quite a general praise of how good prepared were that games ( and how much money Russia invested in them ).

Even Putin was acclaimed broadly when he and Obama solved the chemical weapons issue in Syria.

The only few "dark" points that were commented were the anti-gay policies ( between my best friends there are two gays and one lesbian, so to me it looks old fashioned and intolerant to make them hide their sexuality ) and the lack of freedom of speech in Russia.

Just so you can laugh a bit, the only main national topic about the Olympic Games in Finland, was the ice hockey match Finland vs Sweden ( which IMO Sweden won rightfully, although most of Finns won't agree ).

Google with the phrase "olympic games bashing" - you'll find some interesting stuff.

So-called 'anti-gay' policies (IRL it is not anti-gay but forbidding gay propaganda among minors, these are two different things) hysteria right before Olympics made me laugh - facts of some Criminal Code articles in nearest 'civilized world' allies in the Middle East stating death penalty for being gay are ignored totally for years. How do you think why? And yes, maybe it's old-fashioned to hide a sexuality in Europe but here it's normal, that's local culture. So according of tolerance and multiculturalism ideology even such aspects of Russian cultures should be at least respected but not constantly labeled as barbaric and retarded.

Are you joking? Democratic and truly free 90's? If that was the beginning of today's autocracy. Russia still has to discover Democracy!

I don't know how to put sarcastic tag at that phrase, so in my words 'democratic and truly free 90's' was full of sarcasm. But, believe it or not, most of so called liberals that are pro-EU/US and have good personal ties with different agencies and politicians from west think about that time period in such way.

Yeah there are so many rebellions and brutal violence in a lot of western countries... You know... Sweden? France? Germany? Spain? Italy? Norway? Austria? Switzerland? Malta? etc...

While in Russia, I can remember in this last 12 years a lot of terrorist attacks ( last ones this last winter ), even little wars, situation in Daguestan, Chechnya, etc... Seems that your tactics are not precisely right. And in fact you are losing really fast the respect earned after the fall of Soviet Union when lots of people were expecting a reborn of a free and democratic Russia... It's pretty much the opposite that you say. Just check forums in the internet, from 10 years ago and from now...

We had little wars between Osetians and Ingushs, full-scale war in Chechnya (with 'Chechen rebels' armed with tanks, heave artillery, Grads etc.) that was halted for three years and them broke again and ended only in about 2005. Now it's almost over, nobody blows houses, captures hospitals or schools. I know the end is not near but still it's better that early 2000's and especially 90's. Attacks of gangs armed with AKs and RPGs are way more easier to deal with than attacks of gangs armed with BMPs and having 122-mm howitzers fire support.

Meanwhile 'kidnapped' Ukrainian officer found detained by local police for... being drunken while driving quadrocycle and making car accident.

"I... I was... sitting on rear...":D 2,01 promille of alcohol in blood.

---------- Post added at 23:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Lynx, trying to call nazi a politician just because of his gestures is really low level and weak propaganda.

It would be more interesting if we make comparisons between his speeches and Hitler ones, or Putin's and Hitler ones... Then we would see who has more similarities.

Here you go. There are lost of interesting articles from kikes being guilty in all troubles of Ukraine to suggestion of forced sterilization of all those who do not support glorious revolution. Well, if such things are widely spoken on official party forums...

[scrim 1]

I'll look at it with pleasure because I have LOTS of uncomfortable questions to both Putin and EdRo in case of internal politics.

I see you totally got the message about how childish, if not outright stupid it is to say that someone is a Nazi because you can find a photograph where someone makes a gesture that is vaguely similar to one made by Hitler...

On another note, would you mind answering why the folks in Kiev can't organize soup kitchens without covert support from the EU, when the "Crimeans" can build an all dimensions professional army in secret? I think you missed it, since there's probably a super convincing, sensible explanation for it, right?

[mistyronin 1181]

I wanted to share this

that explain their point of view concerning the Ukraine-Russia situation. ( it has subtitles in English, but they have to be activated clicking the CC )

( Lynx tomorrow I'll answer your post )

[Tonci87 163]

Holy shit watch this

Berkut are still giant assholes. I think its more and more ironic that the Krim government acts like Kiew has a new fashist government when their security forces behave like this.

[arttem 1]

Holy shit watch this

Berkut are still giant assholes. I think its more and more ironic that the Krim government acts like Kiew has a new fashist government when their security forces behave like this.

The video from 0:09 was cut out. We can't say what was realy there. I mean in those time that was cut out from video. Cause there is no any logic in theirs actions.

The style they making it is very agressive anyway. MVD actions absolutly unlogical.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ArtTem

[Colossus 2]

The video from 0:09 was cut out.

Watch the whole video first. :p

[arttem 1]

Watch the whole video first. :p

Yeah, thats why i've updated post.

MVD guys are very agressive and i can't understand logic. Why? Just few journalists. Whats the problem, there is no any reason for such hard action.

In Russia they can do such thing only if they have operative info about that man. There is a lists of people who are in search (in another countries that system works the same way). Thats the only reason when MVD guys will be act like that. But they release them in final, it's unlogical again.

Edited March 12, 2014 by ArtTem

[mistyronin 1181]

MVD guys are very agressive and i can't understand logic. Why? Just few journalists. Whats the problem, there is no any reason for such hard action.

Well, having in mind that the Berkut have been treated like attack dogs. First manipulated and trained as a political police to fight all kind of opposition with strong violence. Being hated all around for that, as media showed their actions all over the world.

Then abandoned by their own boss, who run away to Russia. Having to escape because of being threatened ( and I guess their families too ), because of their shameful actions in the past demonstrations.

Now living as an illegal occupation force in a little region, having lost almost all their power, and probably close to a full war against the people that they use to bully.

I can understand why they act like that. Remember that for starters they were no much more than bullies, and now they more than probably are paranoid and full of hate against all the media and anything that is not Russian ( the only ones who still can bear them ).

What they have done is scare the hell of that journalist to discourage them to report anything about Crimea. Obviously the fact that they were from UK and US, has prevented a more strong action.

It's quite a standard in all the world, that kind of aggressions to journalist to prevent the truth. It's part of their job, specially in conflict zones. And sometimes the result is death.

Edited March 12, 2014 by MistyRonin

[scrim 1]

It's completely understandable why they act like that. Under Yanukovitch they were privileged, they had a special status in society. Now they have been disbanded, and are being hunted. The KGB wasn't even disbanded in the USSR, and they actually tried to launch a coup in response to the disbandment of the USSR.