arttem 1 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) BBC News The shop on the Ukraine-Russia border http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26572569 ---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ---------- Can smbdy translate what he is telling? ---------- Post added at 00:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ---------- From Kharkov. As he shouts oftenly "Pravy sector is killing us!" http://bambuser.com/v/4442912 Edited March 15, 2014 by ArtTem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 The shop on the Ukraine-Russia border http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26572569 Opinions from people in the border are always mixed because they are between two cultures. And in this case people from that border village seem to be mainly ethnic Russians. The problem is when you go inside the country, for example those Crimeans citizens in this article: ( BBC ) Crimea: Fear and unease in Novo-Ozyorne The main problem IMO is that while the area is occupied by Russian military any referendums are gonna be invalid. But Crimean people have the right and deserve to decide what future do they want ( but freely and fully informed from all the sides / options ). For instance, if they want complete independence from both Ukraine and Russia, it doesn't make sense force them to be what they don't want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akm74 1 Posted March 15, 2014 For instance, if they want complete independence from both Ukraine and Russia, it doesn't make sense force them to be what they don't want. Agree. Do you think this have to be offered to all other region/parts of Ukraine as well ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 15, 2014 Well, no, they don't have a right to break out however they want. For starters there's international law, and then there's the Ukrainian constitution, that dictates that there must be a vote held regarding secession in the whole of Ukraine before something like that is permitted. There has never been a human right dictating that the people of a region are allowed to determine to which country said region belongs. In fact, having something like that would very much destabilize the world and make for a hell of a lot more wars, as these "covert" invasions and lightning speed referendums that we see now would effectively provide a giant leap hole for annexation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 15, 2014 [/color]Can smbdy translate what he is telling? Found. "The new management of the government, prosecutor's office instructed the management of MVD to create specialgroup for destruction of the political opponents. First of all they are going to destroy personally me, to destroy or take live and to give out to intelligence services of the Russian Federation, then to dump everything on them" - as Muzychko declared. If it's a right translation. It's funny. They wanna kill icon of Maidan and say that it was Ruskies? Nice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) Well, no, they don't have a right to break out however they want. For starters there's international law, and then there's the Ukrainian constitution, that dictates that there must be a vote held regarding secession in the whole of Ukraine before something like that is permitted. There has never been a human right dictating that the people of a region are allowed to determine to which country said region belongs. In fact, having something like that would very much destabilize the world and make for a hell of a lot more wars, as these "covert" invasions and lightning speed referendums that we see now would effectively provide a giant leap hole for annexation. Right of self-determination: The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.It states that nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation. Agree. Do you think this have to be offered to all other region/parts of Ukraine as well ? The right of self-determination in International Law has been applied already to a lot of countries ( in fact, most of them. For example recently in Kosovo, or the other ex-Yugoslavia. So why not? But AGAIN those should be decided in a neutral and fully democratic referendum, giving enough time to everyone to inform themselves ( like it is happening in Scotland, Quebec or Catalonia ); so no military invasions nor censorship of press. - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( Yle ) Haglund: Chance of heightened military tensions in Crimea Edited March 15, 2014 by MistyRonin Orthography Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 15, 2014 You're missing a huge, obvious point there: Crimea is not a state. It is an autonomous Ukrainian region, that is recognized by the West and East alike as being part of the sovereign nation of Ukraine. Comparing Ukraine with Yugoslavia does not hold up, as Ukraine is universally recognized as a single, sovereign nation, whereas Yugoslavia after WW2 was a federation of nations, and thus those nations could claim their right to self-determination during the '90s. Ukraine is not a federation in which Crimea is a nation that can claim self-determination, it is a single nation where Crimea is an autonomous region. Thus, Crimea would, apart from the obvious, such as actually holding a democratic referendum with no foreign nation occupying it, have to heed the Ukrainian constitution should it wish to secede. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 15, 2014 Vice News Dispatch 9 It seems as if the russian people are really afraid of fashists. Efficient propaganda? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 15, 2014 Foreign troops occupying Crimea: Check Independent media turned off and replaced by Kremlin loyal propaganda channels: Check Thugs (Cossacks and Chetniks) from other countries brought in to beat down on pro-Ukrainians: Check Replaced all democratically elected politicians in opposition with un-elected pro-Russians: Check Violated the laws dictating how to make political decisions: Check Threatened and otherwise kept independent inspectors out: Check Yep, no wonder it looks the way it does. The irony is that the pro-Russian Crimeans have been so well duped, quite possibly by themselves, that they stand there blindly shouting "fascists", when it is they who are supporting the real fascism. The fascism that is going on in Crimea right now makes the fascists in Kiev look like a few grandmothers knitting mittens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barakokula31 10 Posted March 15, 2014 I can easily see this escalating into WW3. Putin is not a great leader, if Crimea doesn't want to join Ukraine, he'll most likely try claiming with his army. He's already deploying troops near the border. There's no way Ukraine could defend itself from the Russian army. After that, Putin might even try getting other countries, such as Moldova or Romania. I also saw somebody mention "a greater Russia". Isn't this how world war II started? "A greater Germany"? Isn't this how the Yugoslavian war started? "A greater Serbia"? I'm kinda sorta scared right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) You're missing a huge, obvious point there: Crimea is not a state. It is an autonomous Ukrainian region, that is recognized by the West and East alike as being part of the sovereign nation of Ukraine. Have you even read what I said in my last post? Although Scotland and Catalonia were former medieval states, nowadays are autonomous regions. Unlike for example Kosovo, or Quebec, or Gibraltar, or Greenland, or a huge amount of other nations that were autonomous or just simple regions that have decided their future through votes, exercising the UN self-determination principle. And Crimea has all the requirements, same as any other "people" ( understood as a group of people with a different culture and history ). BUT obviously not through Russian military invasion. - - - - - - - - - - ( El PaÃs ) Dos muertos en enfrentamientos en el este de Ucrania Summary: Two dead people after different incidents, first a few pro-Ukraine's ultranationalist storm into a ProRussian meeting, later those ProRussian demonstrators tried to assault the Pro-Ukraine's building and that escalated to a shooting. Ukrainian police seized both sides' weapons. Edited March 15, 2014 by MistyRonin Adding piece of news Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 15, 2014 Can sombdy explain about what he is talking? Just the main essence. My knowledge of German language very low. He accuses of something Merkel? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akm74 1 Posted March 15, 2014 But AGAIN those should be decided in a neutral and fully democratic referendum, giving enough time to everyone to inform themselves ( like it is happening in Scotland, Quebec or Catalonia ); so no military invasions nor censorship of press. i can't agree more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) ( The Guardian ) Kiev claims it repelled Russian troops in south Ukraine Ukraine’s military scrambled aircraft and paratroops on Saturday to repel an attempt by Russian forces to enter a long spit of land belonging to a region adjacent to Crimea, Ukraine’s defence ministry said. “Units of Ukraine’s armed forces today...repelled an attempt by servicemen of the armed forces of the Russian Federation to enter the territory of Kherson region on Arbatskaya Strelka,†a ministry statement said. “This was repelled immediately.†It said the Ukrainian military used aircraft, ground forces and its aeromobile battalion in the operation. The territory in question is a long spit of land running parallel to the east of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula, now controlled by Russian forces. Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine expresses its strong and categorical protest against the landing on March 15, 2014 near the village Strilkove, Kherson region of troops of the Russian Federation Armed Forces in a number of 80 military personnel, and seizure of the village Strilkove with the support of 4 helicopter gunships and 3 armored combat machines. Ukraine Foreign Ministry declares the military invasion by Russia and demands the Russian side immediately withdraw its military forces from the territory of Ukraine. Ukraine reserves the right to use all necessary measures to stop the military invasion by Russia. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Moscow rally opposes Crimea intervention ( RIA Novosti ) Protesters Detained at Anti-War Rally in Moscow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Russia isolated in UN Crimea vote China, regarded as a Russian ally on the issue, abstained from the vote Interesting... Edited March 15, 2014 by MistyRonin Adding news Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yairweinberg 1 Posted March 15, 2014 Unidentefied Ukrainian military officials claim that a Russian invasion to a town near Crimea has been stopped by the Ukrainian Army and Air force... As of now there has been no confirmation to these reports. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) Situation seems to escalate... Russians seem to have entered in mainland Ukraine ( no Crimea ) Russia said Saturday it was reviewing “many requests†for protection from people in Ukraine, reports AFP. The statement from Moscow, coming on the eve of a hugely controversial Sunday referendum on Crimea’s fate, indicates that Russia may deploy troops to elsewhere in Ukraine besides the Russian-speaking peninsula. “Russia is receiving many requests to protect peaceful citizens†in Ukraine, the foreign ministry said in a statement. “These requests will be considered.†“Militants including from Pravy Sektor are continuing to behave in an outrageous manner,†it said, referring to the radical Right Sector group whose members were at the forefront of last month’s protests that ended in the ouster of pro-Kremlin president Viktor Yanukovych. “We are getting alarming reports that a column with armed mercenaries from the Right Sector... has left Kharkov for Donetsk and Lugansk,†the ministry said, referring to Russian-speaking cities in eastern Ukraine. The foreign ministry, claiming that a garment factory, apparently in Ukraine, was producing Russian military uniforms, hinted at possible action by provocateurs posing as Russian soldiers. Two people were killed and several were injured in Kharkiv when nationalists opened fire on a group of men trying to storm their headquarters late on Friday. The Kharkiv clashes came after a young man was killed in Donetsk during rallies. Following the latest attack, the Russian foreign ministry urged Ukraine to outlaw nationalist groups. Earlier this week Moscow said it reserved the right to protect its compatriots in Ukraine in case of attacks. Edited March 15, 2014 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 15, 2014 Can sombdy explain about what he is talking? Just the main essence. My knowledge of German language very low. He accuses of something Merkel? He accuses Merkel and the EU of really fucking up regarding the whole crysis (in wich he is absolutely right). He compares the wests behaviour to how they acted in Yugoslawia and the Kosovo. His demands on the end are nothing but stupid though. For example he proposes that the Ukrainian administration be split up between Ukrainians and Russians, even with two presidents. That is extremelly stupid because: You can see in Bosnia how well this works (hint: It doesn´t, like at all.). The Russians are a minority in the Ukraine. Gysi has a history of beeing pro russian and pro communist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 15, 2014 He accuses Merkel and the EU of really fucking up regarding the whole crysis (in wich he is absolutely right). He compares the wests behaviour to how they acted in Yugoslawia and the Kosovo. His demands on the end are nothing but stupid though. For example he proposes that the Ukrainian administration be split up between Ukrainians and Russians, even with two presidents. That is extremelly stupid because: You can see in Bosnia how well this works (hint: It doesn´t, like at all.). The Russians are a minority in the Ukraine.Gysi has a history of beeing pro russian and pro communist. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) Some correspondents reporting being caught up in an incident involving at least a dozen commandos storming into Simferepol’s Hotel Moskva and besieging the place in pursuit of an “armed suspectâ€. It was later described by those involved as a “training incident†but appears to be less than clear cut. Simon Shuster Tweet Minister of defence of #Crimea in Moscow hotel says 'nothing is happening'. That wld be why armed masked men are in our hotel. ( the Guardian ) Tatars in Crimea: caught between the west and a hard place - video Edited March 15, 2014 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amra 10 Posted March 16, 2014 Wow, what a pathetic propaganda. West really degrades. Online translation: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colossus 2 Posted March 16, 2014 Just in case someone wanted to see the continuation of the documentary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Amra: Oh really? It's Western propaganda you say? Then maybe you could be so kind as to tell us what isn't true? Are there not Russian occupiers, hiding their faces like thugs and bandit patrolling the streets? Are the voters not limited to voting for options that will only remove Crimea from Ukraine? No, those things are all true. You're just one to speak of propaganda, aren't you? How sad it is to see that after more than 60 years, there's yet again a fascist state in Europe, that has no qualms about showing the free world just how it looks when the hobnail jackboots of fascism are marching, trampling democracy, human rights and freedom. Also of interest: China chose not to veto the Security Council's criticism of the referendum. Edited March 16, 2014 by scrim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 16, 2014 Just in case someone wanted to see the continuation of the documentary That is incredibly smart to take their guns away after the oath has been taken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 16, 2014 Wow, what a pathetic propaganda. West really degrades. RT has always been known with FOX news as an example of neutrality :rolleyes: Talking about degrading propaganda, a Pravda opinion article calling Merkel a Washington's whore, that is top tier journalism. ( Pravda ) The failure of German leadership: Merkel Whores For Washington Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
