Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

ROFL, Christ! Are you even trying any longer Lynx? "Someone on this forum said that they are actually locals, so that is undeniably the case".

Please read carefully and then reply. Thank you. BTW, are you Pole?

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Russia begins new military exercises

( Russia Today ) Russia deploys 8,500 troops for artillery drills in south

Russian soldiers are having a great time with so many exercises.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What's also common besides Gorka uniform?

AK 74s and the ones on the left, seem to share the same vest. Having in mind that your photo you said that was taken in Crimea... and the only ones that dress and are equipped alike are the ones that are presumable from the Russian Army. In the forums were you took the photos from they were even guessing that it could be some kind of Spetsnaz or Alpha unit.

Edited March 13, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Amra 10]

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Russia begins new military exercises

( Russia Today ) Russia deploys 8,500 troops for artillery drills in south

Russian soldiers are having a great time with so many exercises.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

AK 74s and the ones on the left, seem to share the same vest. Having in mind that your photo you said that was taken in Crimea... and the only ones that dress and are equipped alike are the ones that are presumable from the Russian Army. In the forums were you took the photos from they were even guessing that it could be some kind of Spetsnaz or Alpha unit.

I see. I thought you considered a guys with something like HK to be the one in Gorka on photo with Tiger.

[scrim 1]

Please read carefully and then reply. Thank you. BTW, are you Pole?

I have read it, re-read it, and re-read it again. According to the rumour mill on another forum, a few people in a picture wear locally produced tac vests, and carry AR clones. Just how would that make them local? If they are a local militia, they should be congratulated, because A, they've managed to get their hands on better rifles than is issued to the Ukrainian army, and B, they are literally speaking the most organized and professional non-government militia in the history of the world, which is easy to say just by looking at them.

Yes, I'm part Polish.

[spooky lynx 73]

I have read it, re-read it, and re-read it again. According to the rumour mill on another forum, a few people in a picture wear locally produced tac vests, and carry AR clones. Just how would that make them local? If they are a local militia, they should be congratulated, because A, they've managed to get their hands on better rifles than is issued to the Ukrainian army, and B, they are literally speaking the most organized and professional non-government militia in the history of the world, which is easy to say just by looking at them.

My words were "Seems that...". How could you read it as "They definitely are..."? And, A - Z-15 is sold at civilian market and is not certified for military use so tacticool look does not make it better than rifles issued to army. B - Gorka suits and some vests are standart uniforms of more than a half of airsoft teams across the former USSR:) So again some tacticool look alone does not make these guys really professional IRL. I had the same gorka some years ago, trousers from this suit still lie somewhere at my countryhouse. Really good clothes for outdoor activity and mountain travelling BTW.

Yes, I'm part Polish.

The question that interests me - why only Poles have such terrible butthurt and hysteria because of recent events at Ukraine (I've noted this reading multiple forums and sites)? Some of you even turned 180 degrees in case of thoughts about Russia in general and Russian officials particularly. Strange indeed. Not Finns, not Czechs or Slovaks, not Hungarians...

[ProfTournesol 956]

The question that interests me - why only Poles have such terrible butthurt and hysteria because of recent events at Ukraine (I've noted this reading multiple forums and sites)? Some of you even turned 180 degrees in case of thoughts about Russia in general and Russian officials particularly. Strange indeed. Not Finns, not Czechs or Slovaks, not Hungarians...

Well, there are Finns and Frogs that are butthurt too :)

[spooky lynx 73]

Well, there are Finns and Frogs that are butthurt too :)

But not so hard as Poles. That wonders me much...:confused: Calm down, gentlemen, jeszcze Polska nie zginęła and there's no any profits for us to invade it. Hey, even take Galichina and Lviv if you want.

[scrim 1]

Eh, #1, pretty much everyone on these forums from the Western world say that Putin is behaving in a manner that is nothing short of fascism. #2, yes, you really seem to have a lot to wonder about if you don't understand why people are pissed off.

[Rydygier 1302]

Poles, from rich and long history of relationships with Russia, are well awared of how neighbour Russia is, how this country used to act, what are Russian ways to deal with things and what can you expect from that directon. Russia "visited" us on our land enough times, long enough. During these visits enough blood has been spilled, lives taken, enough pain inflicted and terror spread to know Russia's true face. It isn't hysteria. It is voice of extensive experience of the centuries. Do not know, if any other country has equally clearheaded, devoid of illusions look at Russia in this part of the world. Finland I think, but they aren't Ukraine neighbour. It is natural, so every country thretened by Putin's sick imperial ambitions will get sympathy and support from Poles. Nothing else you should expect. Also Ukraine, despite unsettled bill of wrongs between Ukraine and Poland.

You may not agree with such point of view (I do not expect you will agree nor understand. If people of Russia could an would understand and accept that point of view, Russia would be quite another country of better opinion and much better as neighbour and place to live. Yet Russia is such, not different and its rulers act this way, not another. We learned about history from different textbooks and we used to look at reality from different culture and tradition), but just know, what and why Poles en masse think about all this. And why you see so many and often emotional voices from Poland about situation in Ukraine. Plus, this crisis more or less affect or will affect also Poland...

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/39,1093820-Rosja-przerzuca-samoloty-bojowe-na-Bialorus.html

In Bobruisk already landed, according to a press of the Russian Defence, six Su-27 fighters and three military transport planes. He invited them to himself President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko.

It is a reaction to the placement in Poland 12 U.S. F-16 aircraft. Invitation Lukashenko, however, was not necessary - under agreements between Russian troops can, in principle, without limitation stationed on the territory of Belarus.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Rydygier

[Tonci87 163]

I´m not a pole...

[vilas 473]

i would like another time remind that Russian polician Zyrinovsky says that Poland , Finland, Lithuania, Latvia should not exist and Russia should return to borderline from year 1900 and Ukrainians should be deported to Alaska - this guy has 11% in Russian parliament,

communists praising Stalin (biggest criminal in history) have 20%

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, there are Finns and Frogs that are butthurt too :)

Well, here in Finland talks about joining NATO have started again at the parliament. It seems that an important part of Finland still remembers the past aggressions.

( BTW, if you don't know about this goodlooking A3 Russian Armed Forces mod, I recommend you to follow this Facebook Page )

Edited March 13, 2014 by MistyRonin
Orthography

[hellfire257 3]

Finland doesn't need to care. Based upon history, I think the Finns would do just fine :D.

[mistyronin 1181]

( NY Times ) Russia Massing Military Forces Near Border With Ukraine

[spooky lynx 73]

Rydygier, well, both our nations have long list of things to aware of each other. You were at Moscow, we were at Warsaw and so on. One of our national heroes is Ivan Susanin who led large Polish troop to swamps instead of showing them short road to their target. According to history Poland wouldn't mind to take some extra land if possible. The same goes to any country with some political ambitions. So I still don't understand why there's such hysteria about Ukraine. Rumors say Romania and Hungary are ready to defend their compatriots in Bukovina and Zakarpatye and may send armed forces to Ukraine if necessary. So why don't you do the same?

Vilas, Zhirinovsky and commies are in Duma since 1993, why do you condemn them only now? Some weeks ago I saw almost opposite words from you both about our regime and commies.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[scrim 1]

So, lemme get this straight: You freak out and feel entitled to bullying and threatening when Poland wants an ABM shield, because that could diminish the threat of Russian nuclear weapons, but on the other hand, you are completely in the dark as to why Poland would get freaked out when you out right invade one of your neighbouring countries and attempt to annex it, despite having on several occasion recognized its borders and independence, because they chose to move closer to democracy and the West?

Not to mention how damn absurd it is to act as though the crimes committed by Russia towards Eastern Europe during the 20th century only match those committed by Eastern Europe towards Russia during the same period. It's like a German saying "Ok, we invaded you, annexed you, tried to exterminate you, so what? The AK didn't treat its German POWs according to the Geneva conventions, so I think we're about equal."

Edited March 14, 2014 by scrim

[Amra 10]

Lynx, you can google "Dostoyevsky about slavic nations". There is absolutely nothing new in origins of this hate. Dostoyevsky wrote about it more than 100 years ago. The same hate with same origins takes place today.

[arttem 1]

i would like another time remind that Russian polician Zyrinovsky says that Poland , Finland, Lithuania, Latvia should not exist and Russia should return to borderline from year 1900 and Ukrainians should be deported to Alaska - this guy has 11% in Russian parliament,

communists praising Stalin (biggest criminal in history) have 20%

Еach little baby in Russia can say that Zhyrinovsky is our domestic circus clown. Vilas you found whom to listen... :D

At last week Zhyrinovsky said in the State Duma that we don't need "Ñ‹" letter from our alphabet because his son having a problems pronunciation of that letter. :D

[Rydygier 1302]

@Lynx

You don't understand, because you still think, it is "hysteria" while it is not. You have certain point of view firmly established during the upbringing and education received (like reading Dostojewski), Poles has quite another, as said - "different textbooks".

You think, Poles did in the past same thing, Russia does today, we absolutelly do not think that way. It is not about amount of land in possesion in any point of history, it is about ways that led to such possesion, what people living on there lands really wanted or not and how much. It is about point of the history too. In the Middle Ages war and taking the land was something quite different, than is now. You for example can't seriously name a same thing what Polish king Chrobry did to consolidate his kingdom with current Putin's actions. Another situation, another world. What makes this difference? When you judge some choices and actions, if are wrong or right, what matters are intentions and consequences for the single people. Why Putin act like that? I mean - really, in his head, not propaganda, he spread. Restore imperium? Ambitions? For what? What good from that? What is worthy of price, many people will pay for these ambitions? What makes a good thing, what he is doing using Russia? Poles say - nothing. It is deeply wrong. And, for Poles, nihil novi sub sole as for Russia usual behavior. Why Russia allow him to act like that? Is Russian people really approve his aggresive actions despite consequences? Is thought about imperial power so pleasant for Russians, so they choose to be blind on consequences for another people? They really doesn't see how injust is this? Or they see, but think, can't do anything about? Or don't really care?

Knowledge about historical facts is one thing, but their selection and judgement is another thing. We do not share your point of view about what our countries did to each other. Not that proportion. Not even close. Yes, in the far past Poles took Moscow once but compare situation, context and purpose of this short episod with eg. 1772–1795 (and later, in summary 123 (!!!)), 1920, 1939-1941, 1944-1945 + 44 (!!!). Disproportion is ridicolous here. Yep, lets say our ancestors once went through the fence into your garden. And there was several arguing about the bounds in the times, where bounds wasn't strongly consolidated. Your parents though occupied our house more than 100 years, robbed this house. Burned it. Terrorised and murdered inhabitants. Nothing will justify that. On the top of all this is Katyn. Do not count, it will be forgotten soon. Majority of Polish intelectual elites was slaughtered there, and we are paying for that slaugher and for nearly 50 years of PRL even now.

But it is even not a point here. Despite, what do you think about who to whom did more wrong, one wrong is not any excuse for another wrong. It is only adding new injustice to the old one. In the summary, for Poles Russia is old and constant threat from the eurasia east. Threat of uncivilised terror and barbarism, we saw and suffered many times, threat for Poland existence itself. Real threat, as we experienced, not imagined.

Understand, I do not try to make you accept Polish point of view about our history, I only try to reffer for you, what Polish point of view looks like. We can't count on better relationships until we at least understand each other, who thinks what and why.

So why don't you do the same?

You are asking about what and why people in Poland think, or what and why our government does or not? I can tell you about first, but obviously I have no knowledge about the second thing. Do not trust any rumors by the way.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Rydygier

[Colossus 2]

Well, Vice News' "Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine (Dispatch Eight)" have been released, but due to it contents I won't post it (forum rule §6). It's a rather grim and disgusting scene these pro-Russians are making in Donetsk. Two deaths apparently.

[batto 17]

I don't really get what do Crimea citizens expect... Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

Edited March 14, 2014 by batto

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1075258,Kolejne-manewry-Rosjanie-cwicza-na-Morzu-Srodziemnym

"Russian jet fighters and helicopters began instructional flights in and around Cyprus - said a spokesman for the Russian Navy."

"Belonging to the Russian Northern Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov passed earlier this year over the Mediterranean Sea and 28 February docked at Cyprus."

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1058868

"In the Crimea, however, are special units of the Russian army. This was confirmed by the President of the Committee for the Commonwealth of Independent Member of the State Duma Leonid Slutsky."

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1074130,Rosyjskie-wojsko-przy-granicy-z-Ukraina-O-krok-od-wojny-%5Brelacja%5D

"On Friday at NATO headquarters in Brussels will be a meeting of 50 countries. Were invited Russia and Ukraine - informed the representatives of the North Atlantic Alliance. As a spokeswoman for the Atlantic Alliance said Carmen Romero, Ukraine asked to convene an extraordinary meeting of ambassadors of the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council, which brings together 28 Allies and 22 other countries in Europe and Central Asia."

---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 ----------

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/29,1093761-Ponad-polowa-Rosjan-chce-glosowac-na-Putina.html

"Russian support for President Vladimir Putin reached a record high - gives the Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VTsIOM).

Currently, support for the Russian president declares 71.6 percent of respondents."

If true, then it is even not, that Putin gone mad and uses Russia to realize his madness. Majority of people of Russia want same, what Putin wants. Very sad, not very surprising. And how to not think low about such country? Question stays - if it is true.

[scrim 1]

Go figure, it didn't even take a quarter of a century for the Russians to, after the collapse of the Soviet Empire, yet again become the world's #1 threat to democracy and freedom. And instead of pretending that they are trying to achieve a democratic utopia at a date TBA like the last time, this time they recognize what their leaders are doing, and they do it with pride.

[mistyronin 1181]

Russia 'will respect Crimea vote'

Are they talking about the vote of that people that are under Russian Army occupation, with all media censored but pro-Russian, with lots of ProRussian agents moving to Crimea ( from Cossacks to Chetniks, etc.?

How democratic! It remembers me when the Baltics also voted in a "referendum" to "join" the Stalin's Soviet Union.

Edited March 14, 2014 by MistyRonin

[scrim 1]

I would also find it very easy to respect the outcome of a vote, after I've gotten to exclude options I don't like from it.