Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

Because it was part of ancient Colchis ( from 13th century BC ), an ancient Georgian kingdom, then part of the Kingdom of Georgia in middle age for like another 800-900 years ( 6th-15th century ). Then it got captured by the Ottomans in the 15th century and finaly captured by Russia in the 18th century. Abkhazians and Georgians tried to retake that region from the Bolsheviks in 1918 and succeded, only to be backstabbed later by the White Movement which was supporting us against the Reds in the beginning. Crimea ? Crimea was inhabitated by at least a dozen of different cultures ( I can't even remember them all, Romans, Mongolians, Seljuks, Khazars, Kipchaks, Ottomans etc etc etc ) from ancient times again up until the 18th century when the Ottomans lost control over it. So please, how much right do you have to claim those territories ? from that standpoint your demands and claims are nothing else but insulting.

Hm... Captured by Russia in 18th century? So petition for defence by Irakly II to Russian emperor is labeled as occupation in modern Georgian schools? Sad... Seems that we should leave you to Iranians, they would better manage with infidels.

And if you want to dig some old history - let me remind you that according to Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca and later Russian-Turkish treaties, only Russia and Turkey can claim the Crimea.

if Germany payed for crimes of Hitler, why Russians do not uderstand that their country was invading others and made a lot of crimes that never were payed (like force labour in 40s) ?

Invading who? Those who later became Warsaw pact countries or what? Forced labour in what regions exactly? Don't you realise that invasion itself was not reason for paying contributions but all the damages and casualties caused by it?

[sudayev 27]

Your country invaded mine as well and did a lot of crimes that never were payed. So? Where would we start?

Ha ha ha. This made my day!

[Amra 10]

Ha ha ha. This made my day!

Well the same "haha" goes to your demands on compensations. Have a nice day.

[spooky lynx 73]

Your country invaded mine as well and did a lot of crimes that never were payed. So? Where would we start?

Don't forget to count the debt with inflation and interest rate.

[sudayev 27]

Well the same "haha" goes to your demands on compensations. Have a nice day.

You shown your ugly mug and mentality of a kacap

[Amra 10]

You shown your ugly mug and mentality of a kacap

For how long that guy will continue to insult me? The question to moderators.

[vilas 473]

Forced labour in what regions exactly?

SYBERIA , people deported by USSR in 1939-1941 were slaves working in syberia, building for example Syberian railway line and etc.

[mistyronin 1181]

I would be quite happy if neighbouring countries really be neutral, but let's be honest - they are too weak for it and never were neutral for a long time. So you may call my thoughts imperialistic but for me and my country it's surely better if neighbouring countries will be influenced by us and not by those who compete us or rival.

That post really clarifies your point of view ( and probably quite extended in Russia ), which is really scary to me.

Basically what you said is: as my neighbors are too weak and do not agree with me, that's why I can bully them as much as I can until they agree with me... or even steal their properties.

So for instance, if I have a shop, and costumers are so weak and compliant that prefer to shop in a big mall outside the city ( for whatever reason, their products are better or cheaper, etc. ); I can force them with violence to buy my products.

-----

That's a medieval and maybe even prehistorical way of thinking. Specially having in mind that Russia is a huge country with a huge military, that is not threatened militarily by any country...

Edited March 9, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[sudayev 27]

This not an insult by the way, this word comes from Turkey and it means butcher and by negating soviet crimes you're becoming one

[down8 30]

As history shows more or less independent fate was chosen by Finland only. Other states were included into the sphere of influence of countries not so friendly to us. Or became such countries themselves. I would be quite happy if neighbouring countries really be neutral, but let's be honest - they are too weak for it and never were neutral for a long time. So you may call my thoughts imperialistic but for me and my country it's surely better if neighbouring countries will be influenced by us and not by those who compete us or rival. We had already dealt with hundreds of Pz.38(t) and Hetzers.

Wow. Is this a common way of thinking in Russia?

I hope not.

[sudayev 27]

SYBERIA , people deported by USSR in 1939-1941 were slaves working in syberia, building for example Syberian railway line and etc.

Vilas, only in XX century. There are millions more if you will go back up to 300 years back ago. This country was built on forced labor, take St. Petersburg for example or transsiberian line.

[vilas 473]

yes, right

Poles were slaves for Tsar too, right in 1800s-1914 too

Russia was occupant, invader and people were kidnapped to force labour in Syberia, Kazakstan and etc.

Syberian railway line was build by forced labours,

before USSR Gulags, Tsar was enslaving Poles and a lot of Poles that live in Kazakstan, live there not cause they wanted to change climate in 1860s

[purepassion 22]

Gentlemen, please try your best to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks. This is a last warning before infractions will be handed out. Thank you!

[comm_yuri 10]

Hm... Captured by Russia in 18th century? So petition for defence by Irakly II to Russian emperor is labeled as occupation in modern Georgian schools? Sad... Seems that we should leave you to Iranians, they would better manage with infidels.

And if you want to dig some old history - let me remind you that according to Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca and later Russian-Turkish treaties, only Russia and Turkey can claim the Crimea.

You are kidding right ?

Erekle did that believing you would help us against the Ottomans and Persians. We asked our only Christian neighbour, when we after centuries of war had no power anymore to defend ourselves and were at the brink of total destruction, for help and Russia was the only Christian neighbour in sight to help us from the invading Persians. What happened ? only treatury after treatury. First you left us as prey for Khan Qajars troops who took Tbilisi when the king was fighting all on his own after the Russian troops for unclear reason retreated. Then Tsar Paul 1 first withdrew all Russian forces from Caucasus after Tsar Catharine's death and when King Erekle died, Paul annexed all of Georgia and incorporated it into the Russian Empire. Please mate, learn your stuff before you write. This is not how a friendly neighbour behaves. It's called betrayal.

[spooky lynx 73]

That post really clarifies your point of view ( and probably quite extended in Russia ), which is really scary to me.

Basically what you said is: as my neighbors are too weak to not agree with me so I can bully them as much as I can until they agree with me... or even steal their properties.

Basically what I said is: as my neighbors are too weak to be truly neutral and not to be satellites of those who rival me let them be my satellites for the sake of my own security. So please don't distort my words.

[mistyronin 1181]

Basically what I said is: as my neighbors are too weak to be truly neutral and not to be satellites of those who rival me let them be my satellites for the sake of my own security.

I didn't mean to "distort" your words. It's just that to me it's exactly the same. That's the thoughts that took the nazis to invade Europe.

If someone doesn't agree with me or is not truly neutral, or prefer my rivals, or whatever; I have no right to do anything against them. You can try to convince them with treaties, economical advantages and so on. But if my neighbors, doesn't like me so be it...

But to try to control them by force, military, it's just sick to me. It's like the man that hits and threatens his wife / or kids, because she / they don't obey him.

You said that for your own security? What country is trying to invade or threatens Russia militarily? none!

Edited March 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[comm_yuri 10]

Nobody is hating Russians and nobody is trying to attack them. There is paranoia on both sides. You got firggin nukes. You think anyone with some brain would start a war with you when you alone are capable to destroy the entire world economy, climate and atmosphere with a single nuclear missile ? You don't need being aggressive and nobody is trying to get onto your turf. You've lost territories wich originaly didn't belong to you and you should be glad that other peoples in your Federation of cultures aren't revolting and asking for independence as well my dear friend ! you're the only ones right now who are hot headed.

[ProfTournesol 956]

There is no paranoia on both sides. There is paranoia on Russian side. Who is sending troops to Crimea ?

Paranoia and propaganda (together with corruption) are Putin's tools to control his country.

[sudayev 27]

yes, right

Poles were slaves for Tsar too, right in 1800s-1914 too

Russia was occupant, invader and people were kidnapped to force labour in Syberia, Kazakstan and etc.

Syberian railway line was build by forced labours,

before USSR Gulags, Tsar was enslaving Poles and a lot of Poles that live in Kazakstan, live there not cause they wanted to change climate in 1860s

Not only. During the occupation of they always practiced the infamous de-polonisation. People were paying with their life for using native tongue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

By the way, during the WW1 my great grandfather and his family were captured by Soviets and sent to siberia for hard labors. They managed to come back in mid 1920. The way back with other Poles took three-four years, some of them didn't make it.

[JdB 151]

I didn't mean to "distort" your words. It's just that to me it's exactly the same. That's the thoughts that took the nazis to invade Europe.

If someone doesn't agree with me or is not truly neutral, or prefer my rivals, or whatever; I have no right to do anything against them. You can try to convince them with treaties, economical advantages and so on. But if my neighbors, doesn't like me so be it...

But to try to control them by force, military, it's just sick to me. It's like the man that hits and threatens his wife / or kids, because she / they don't obey him.

You said that for your own security? What country is trying to invade or threatens Russia militarily? none!

That's the problem right there. We (EU) think in terms of power through dialogue and economic cooperation, while Russia thinks in power through force of arms and intimidation. Whether it's to achieve short term goals like public support for Putin (nationalism and patriotism as political tools actually work in a country were most of the media is state-owned or at the very least state-controlled) or actual control over strategic territory and resources. Nationalism and patriotism are things we Europeans generally only see in football matches but more as a joke on the other side and during election campaigns of marginalized extreme right- and left wing parties. That's why making deals with Russia under the current regime is impossible, they live in a different world in terms of mentality and world views. The politicians are only fooling themselves and therefore us by telling us that Europe is more stable than before because we are no longer enemies which clearly is incorrect. Any European leader that would use a similar attitude towards countries outside the EU would be forced to resign immediately through demonstrations, made powerless by an uncooperative parliament or have their party decimated in the next elections. It's a totally different approach to diplomacy, one that is incompatible with our own. Sadly a more powerful stance towards Russia wouldn't go down well with the electorate so no politician will risk their career on it.

[scrim 1]

So formally Russia can claim it back.

Yeah, why not? The only opposing factor would be facts. Facts, like the fact that the Russian federation has recognized Ukraine's current borders and right to independence.

[spooky lynx 73]

It's like the man that hits and threatens his wife / or kids, because she / they don't obey him.

You said that for your own security? What country is trying to invade or threatens Russia militarily? none!

It's like wife that is ready to jump in bed with anyone who has bigger wallet than husband, I'd say.

And security threat does not include only threat of direct invasion (it's a total failure when it reaches this level). It also includes supporting rebellions and direct attacks on the countries that are friendly to us. Includes separatism support in such countries and in our own territory, 'color revolutions'. Includes demanding of one-sided disarmament. Includes expanding of military blocks further to our borders despite assurances not to do it. Includes creation of military bases around our territory.

[astral4eg 10]

Here are the most popular and the most realistic view of the situation in Ukraine in Russia. Do not forget turn on english subtitles

Sturm Lugansk (eastern Ukraine) regional administration. 09.03.2014

[Degman 73]

Croatian MiG-s 21 stuck in Ukraine.

http://theaviationist.com/2014/03/04/croatian-migs-stuck-odessa/

[comm_yuri 10]

Here are the most popular and the most realistic view of the situation in Ukraine in Russia.

oh wow, it's even worse over there than I thought. I am really fascinated and concerned about the extent of propaganda in Russian media.