Ukraine General

[scrim 1]

Beagle: Last time I checked, we don't need to go back to '56 to find an era in which the economic tumbscrews sat tight on the Soviet Empire. They did that up until its collapse, at a time when large corporations were already having their undue influence in politics. Luckily, they still don't completely dominate politics.

Lynx: Huge difference, as always in your comparisons. Germany was supposed to have been reunified decades before it actually was, and Israel was created by the UN, because someone sort of realised it'd be a good thing not to let the last Jews be killed off, as they'd probably be unless left to defend themselves.

Edited March 16, 2014 by scrim

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Hmm,so if the west and the US do its ok? and what choise putin have, lie down and become a other marthyr for western hegemony and domination of the globe? so they can rob and loot a other country(again). also how is the west better then Russia,when they have total control over the media, industry,politics etc etc. why are our freedoms and right beeing attacked and demolished for greater control over the masses. and no, it got nothing to do with "terrorisme"?

[spooky lynx 73]

How did they manage to get their hands on Israeli weapons?

They are produced by local Fort company by licence. So, the irony is that Israeli-developed weapons are in hands of UPA successors.

[mistyronin 1181]

Unfortunately the world is not a kindergarten playground, so we have to do something for not being eaten. Oh and despite all the US military invasions condemnations it hadn't been threatened with sanctions and just screws up all that condemnations.

Aha, because there are so many countries in the world that want to "eat" Russia?

About the US if you read my last post you'll understand why. Because the US always negotiates and finds a consensus with other countries, as many as possible ( just check the past wars, there were at least more than 30 countries supporting them ); which gives them certain international legitimacy.

BTW the fact that Russia controlled in the past other nations, doesn't give the right to still control them like if they own them.

I don't remember any Iraqis holding Hussein's army convoys and trying to stop them and not to fight coalition as it happens now in Lugansk and Donbass.

Yeah the Peshmerga Kurds that started a rebellion in the north, and sunnies and shiies that took actions against the regime... they were not doing anything... just blowing up some Hussein's stuff...

The Kosovo's declaration of Independence was proclaimed by a huge majority of the Kosovo parliament. And at that time Kosovo was partially invaded by Serbian army. So a situation a slightly different.

[scrim 1]

Hmm,so if the west and the US do its ok? and what choise putin have, lie down and become a other marthyr for western hegemony and domination of the globe? so they can rob and loot a other country(again). also how is the west better then Russia,when they have total control over the media, industry,politics etc etc. why are our freedoms and right beeing attacked and demolished for greater control over the masses. and no, it got nothing to do with "terrorisme"?

Yeah, Putin was totally entitled to defend himself against the scary, evil Western democracy, human rights, international law, and borders recognized by his own country.

The West is a lot better than Russia, because over here we have this thing called freedom of expression. Unlike in Russia, where the regime has control of all media, and out right closes down websites, papers and TV channels that express any criticism of the regime. So yeah, go live in Russia and then tell me they aren't worse than the West at freedom of expression.

Lynx: You do realize that Kosovo actually was a country before it broke out? It was a country part of the Yugoslav Federation, with a full right to withdraw from it.

[akm74 1]

The most surprising is that a real referendum, with UN/foreign observers and not held at gunpoint, may have had the same result (not 93% though...).

93% is a exit polls numbers.

[mistyronin 1181]

Again that guy.

http://www.picshare.ru/uploads/140313/rHacag742u.jpg (271 kB)

Here you can see them "working":

https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-eleven?trk_source=homepage-lede

- - - - - -

Seems that is not only Finland, the Baltics and Poland, the ones that fear to be hugged next by the bear...

After Crimea, Sweden Flirts With Joining NATO

Edited March 17, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Dwarden 1124]

How did they manage to get their hands on Israeli weapons?

Israel had quite some military trade relationship with Ukraine which goes both way

[Colossus 2]

Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine (Dispatch Twelve) - Excluded due to forum rule §6

[kireta21 13]

The most surprising is that a real referendum, with UN/foreign observers and not held at gunpoint, may have had the same result (not 93% though...).

If so, then why they didn't want observers in the first place, and held it at gunpoint? Answer is, "because they could". It was setup out of convinience. Moscow didn't even pretend it was real, because they knew they can get away with it. And they did.

[mistyronin 1181]

If so, then why they didn't want observers in the first place, and held it at gunpoint? Answer is, "because they could". It was setup out of convinience. Moscow didn't even pretend it was real, because they knew they can get away with it. And they did.

I kind of agree, I believe it was more a power demonstration, too scare their neighbors and get better deals and to increase the Russian self-steam that was hurt after the fall of the Soviet Union; they want to be again the main bully of the world.

Here you have a piece of news from the main Russian media, RIA Novosti, that shows precisely that:

Majority of Russians See Their Country as Superpower

Basically is a copycat of what Hitler did with the post Versailles treaty Germany:

Increase the military expenses, annex / invade all the territories that were lost after the first World War playing the there-are-a-lot-of-our-nationals card ( in the Russian case, the Cold War ), accuse the Allies of being the origin of all their problems, at home fight all kind of opposition ( the nazis called communist to all the possible opponents, and the Russians call nazis to all possible opponents ); and something that is in common in Russia seems to be the quite extended the idea that Jewish / Israel is also the origin of all problems; fomenting also paramilitary gangs ( Hitler fomented the SS and SA, Putin the Cossacks and the motorcycle gangs ), creating huge events like the Olympics, etc.

Edited March 17, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Amra 10]

Congratulate everybody with joyful and really great day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsk7VjW0C2M

[Tonci87 163]

So, is the Krim enough or will Russia try to get the east Ukraine too?

[Rydygier 1302]

http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/swiat/artykuly/453638,zaskakujaca-frekwencja-ile-osob-glosowalo-w-sewastopolu.html

"After checking the data of the referendum, published by the Supreme Council of Crimea, a blogger came to some interesting conclusions - informs "Ukrainian Truth". Electoral commission announced that in the vote took part 474.137 citizens of Sevastopol. Meanwhile, in this city is only 383.499 people, which means that the turnout was 123 percent. According to the journalists of "Ukrainian Truth", fraud was carried out in a very simple way. Those who were not in the list were appended to a separate list, and issued the ballot paper. In this way, same people could vote in several polling stations."

Edited March 17, 2014 by Rydygier

[Beagle 684]

It now happened what I predicted. The EU is imposing sanctions that hurt noone. The CEOs of Gazprom and Rosneft etc are sanctioned as individuals but not the companies themselfts. I really them on their knees already.

[arttem 1]

http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/swiat/artykuly/453638,zaskakujaca-frekwencja-ile-osob-glosowalo-w-sewastopolu.html

"After checking the data of the referendum, published by the Supreme Council of Crimea, a blogger came to some interesting conclusions - informs "Ukrainian Truth". Electoral commission announced that in the vote took part 474.137 citizens of Sevastopol. Meanwhile, in this city is only 383.499 people, which means that the turnout was 123 percent. According to the journalists of "Ukrainian Truth", fraud was carried out in a very simple way. Those who were not in the list were appended to a separate list, and issued the ballot paper. In this way, same people could vote in several polling stations."

Info from live video.

1 524 563 - all people who voted.

1 250 426 - all people in Crimea who voted without Sevastopol.

1 524 563 - 1 250 426 = 274 137 people voted in Sevastopol.

Info from wiki.

306 258 - have rights to vote in Sevastopol.

262 041 - voted in Sevastopol.

9250 - voted to be a part of Ukraine.

2810 - ballot papers.

Who was in observers:

- deputy of Polish Sejm Mateusz Piskorsky;

- member of the Austrian parliament Johannes Yurgner (Johannes Jürgrner);

- Zoran Radoichich, the political and public figure, the observer from Serbia;

- Johan Evald Shtadler, European Parliament deputy;

- deputy of the Latvian parliament Tatyana Zhdanok;

and bla bla bla....

Yes, everybody knows that EU officially didn't send any obsrevers. But there was many officials from Europe. They was pre paid? How it can be? O_o They are from EU. I thoght that people in EU is incorruptible, so i can trust them. :(

Dirty Ruskies paid to everybody. Very sadly.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ArtTem

[Tonci87 163]

Info from live video.

1 524 563 - all people who voted.

1 250 426 - all people in Crimea who voted without Sevastopol.

1 524 563 - 1 250 426 = 274 137 people voted in Sevastopol.

Info from wiki.

306 258 - have rights to vote in Sevastopol.

262 041 - voted in Sevastopol.

Who was in observers:

- deputy of Polish Sejm Mateusz Piskorsky;

- member of the Austrian parliament Johannes Yurgner (Johannes Jürgrner);

- Zoran Radoichich, the political and public figure, the observer from Serbia;

- Johan Evald Shtadler, European Parliament deputy;

- deputy of the Latvian parliament Tatyana Zhdanok;

and bla bla bla....

Yes, everybody knows that EU officially didn't send any obsrevers. But there was many officials from Europe. They was pre paid? How it can be? O_o They are from EU. I thoght that people in EU is incorruptible, so i can trust them. :(

Dirty Ruskies paid to everybody. Very sadly.

They don´t need to pay. Every single one of those observers has a history of beeing pro russian or outright communist. The Observers were invited by russia. Why didn´t they invite the OSZE Observers?

[arttem 1]

They don´t need to pay. Every single one of those observers has a history of beeing pro russian or outright communist. The Observers were invited by russia. Why didn´t they invite the OSZE Observers?

Heads of European Commission and the Council of Europe José Manuel Barroso and Herman van Rompuy declared that they won't send observers. :confused_o:

[scrim 1]

Tonci: They did, but they (obviously) turned down the offer, as their presence there would only serve to legitimize a "referendum" that not even China acknowledges as legal.

[akm74 1]

So, is the Krim enough or will Russia try to get the east Ukraine too?

is't up to eastern/south Ukraine to decide ? same as majorities did in Cremia ? Maybe they want to separate from west and join EU instead ? Who knows...

[ProfTournesol 956]

What's funny is that the foreign observers invited were from far right / nationalist parties, such as Front National in France

[Beagle 684]

is't up to eastern/south Ukraine to decide ? same as majorities did in Cremia ? Maybe they want to separate from west and join EU instead ? Who knows...

One does not simply join the EU, the Ukrainian official should stop acting as if that was so easy for a broke country...the EU has enough broke old meber curently. All they might get is a few EU commerce treaties that are not worth the paper it's written on. But as we have seen you can become a part of russia in just one week. Edited March 17, 2014 by Beagle

[krycek 349]

It now happened what I predicted. The EU is imposing sanctions that hurt noone. The CEOs of Gazprom and Rosneft etc are sanctioned as individuals but not the companies themselfts. I really them on their knees already.

Actually it might return to bite Russia in the ass.Putin wet dream of a new URSS and his crimean adventures might get them in trouble already.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-russia-economy-crisis-idUSBREA2G0RF20140317

Remember these aren't even the full sanctions that EU and US are preparing.If US will approve the natural gas exports for Europe a bit faster then Gazprom(basically Russia is Gazprom) will have it's economy in shambles.The superpower dream is all nice and fuzzy but not with an empty stomach.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Krycek

[spooky lynx 73]

So, is the Krim enough or will Russia try to get the east Ukraine too?

If it ask. Its population have to decide what does it want. Now it is sitting and trying to take right wind direction. Despite numerous attacks by Pravy sektor and other far right groups, arrests of anti-maidan activists, taking the OGA and prosecution buildings still there's no straight opinion among population unlike in Crimea.

[akm74 1]

One does not simply join the EU, the Ukrainian official should stop acting as if that was so easy for a broke country...the EU has enough broke old meber curently. All they might get is a few EU commerce treaties that are not worth the paper it's written on. But as we have seen you can become a part of russia in just one week.

Yes, if you been part of Russia for last 200 years, you can rejoin them very quickly. We all agree what former USSR did was wrong... Thats why we have 15 free states now (some of them members of EU already) instead of uss republics. And thats all beautiful. I just don't understand why gifting land from Russia to Ukraine done in the same USSR timeframe, by same stupid peoples we so hate ... magically considered as right and legit think to do.

Edited March 17, 2014 by AKM74