AI Discussion (dev branch)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Danger FSM is put to a very little use in the vanilla game. Basic reactions are in the engine, group behavior (going into covers, bounding overwatch) is in the behavior (formation) FSM.

Yet that " _this forcespeed 0" piece of code in danger.fsm is disturbing and causing all sort of issues ... worth removing it and replacing with some better logic ?

I'd grant AI would take advantage from that ;)

[froggyluv 2136]

One thing that still really needs tweaking is orientation. Not sure if it's formation, available cover or flank defense but it's all too usual to pick off enemies for the simple reason that they are laying perpendicular or *gasp* backs turned to player or even entire threat direction. Much of the perception of 'dumb/bad AI' probably comes from this experience -whats the point of having all of your AI in the proper tactical position only to have them faced out to sea....

Orientation needs to take a more acute angle and higher priority. If the AI only detects 1 threat and more than 10 seconds have gone by -the entire force should face the players direction -without question. All maneuvers, and formation should play second to this or else it is for naught. Sure let them look side to side, but attention should always be to known threat.

[oukej 2911]

First off, let me thank the devs for opening this thread. "Official" AI discussions can often be like opening Pandoras box when it comes to a flood undeserving "hate mail" and non-constructive complainers. It's rare that a company does this and I appreciate BIS efforts on continuously making a great game even better.

It's your active interest in the game what fuels us up - thank you and thank you for these words!

one of the things that unfortunately frustrates me on a regular basis is the AI's inability to drive / fly vehicles "properly". ... Countless times mission sections were delayed because I had to check upon a technical which kept crashing into some obstacle ... If Bohemia could implement a driving AI similar to Vcom that would make encountering vehicles a much more enjoyable, immersive and scary experience.

This mainly relates to objects placed on the roads - they are not correctly detected. We have a fix for it ready, but it's been delayed by adjustments in road data binarization. Some other improvements are still WIP (I know I mentioned them some time ago already)

I've also noticed that lighter CAS helicopters such as Littlebirds and Wildcats tend to lose their sense of terrain once they've identified targets on the ground. Meaning they'd plan attack flight routes giving them perfect angles for their forward mounted mini guns and rockets but ignoring the fact that said route would make them intimately familiar with a nearby hill, mountain or forest tree line.

Will check that.

[kremator 1065]

Could we have a video of AI driving before and after this new fix please? We aren't expecting them to be pulling handbrake skids (YET!) but some of the AI are so A'not'I it is embarrassing to show my friends how wonderful Arma3 is.

[altis 12]

I hope the driving improvement also helps them not run over their colleagues on foot, but then I don't think it's entirely the drivers fault as foot soldiers do not know how to run on the side of the road enough out of harms way, they also don't understand the concept of crossing the road, or more giving way to vehicles... Both vehicle and foot soldier stop and get stuck in a you go, no you go loop.

[seba1976 98]

Regarding AI driving, and besides the bug oukej pointed out repeatedly as being addressed and ready for deployment, the maps should be as AI friendly as possible. For instance, Altis is not. The small brick walls that clutter the open terrain have certainly broken more tires than bullets, and even tanks get stuck in those (and the AI seems oblibious of those while planning their routes). The sharp angles within cities are also too pronounced. Bornholm will alway be impossible for the AI to drive through (it's even hard for the players in many areas). Duala have similar problems but only in the villages. The opposite cases being the BIS' A2 maps: Chernarus is good enough for the AI to drive through, while Takistan is almost flawless. I really hope that, besides all the improvements in AI driving skills, the expansion terrain will take AI driving into consideration.

---------- Post added at 08:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 ----------

On an unrelated note, have you considered adding something like soldiers falling, and having to stand up again after being hit, as opposed to the current implementation of soldiers twitching and absorving bullets? To ilustrate:

[oukej 2911]

the current implementation of soldiers twitching and absorving bullets

Our team is not satisfied with it either, that's all I can say.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

I hope the driving improvement also helps them not run over their colleagues on foot

Can't promise that :(

---------- Post added at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Yet that " _this forcespeed 0" piece of code in danger.fsm is disturbing and causing all sort of issues ... worth removing it and replacing with some better logic ?

I'd grant AI would take advantage from that ;)

Investigating.

---------- Post added at 14:59 ---------- Previous post was at 14:18 ----------

tanks fire HE at infantry

This may not be the cause. The switching itself based on the target type would be more complicated.

[bullhorn 18]

Can someone explain the complexity behind the AI's inability to breach and clear buildings? I'm not talking about MilSim breaching procedures, I only refer to opening the door and entering the building, maybe climbing up the stairs to the 2nd floor.

I've done close to 20 hours of testing of all kinds of AI (Editor/Zeus, MCC, DAC + ASR AI in a few cases). My unit had god-mode. I went into a building, spotted enemies, shot at them until they became aware of my position, then went prone and loaded Zeus to see what they would do.

In all cases they would start moving tactically towards my building, sometimes as close as 1 meter away from the doors/walls of the building but then they would start either rotating in place or moving away and going prone while aiming at my building, or completely forget what they were doing. Not once did they attempt to breach or shoot RPG/UGL at me. I was able to pick them off one-by-one while they were mindlessly clucking around the building.

I'm satisfied with the AI behavior when fighting outside an when moving but knowing what I know now - I'll never leave a building before every single AI in the vicinity is dead because that's the safest place you can be in. I remember a video by Dslyecxi from Arma 2 where he is pinned down inside a building, no ammo left (1 last bullet in chamber actually), he runs up to the top floor of the building as an AI enters and follows him and then shoots him in the face. I've never seen anything like that in Arma 3. How did he do that?

[seba1976 98]

I remember a video by Dslyecxi from Arma 2 where he is pinned down inside a building, no ammo left (1 last bullet in chamber actually), he runs up to the top floor of the building as an AI enters and follows him and then shoots him in the face. I've never seen anything like that in Arma 3. How did he do that?

Simply put, a person was taking good care of that AI. That's how they do it in Shacktac.

[oukej 2911]

I've also noticed that lighter CAS helicopters such as Littlebirds and Wildcats tend to lose their sense of terrain once they've identified targets on the ground. Meaning they'd plan attack flight routes giving them perfect angles for their forward mounted mini guns and rockets but ignoring the fact that said route would make them intimately familiar with a nearby hill, mountain or forest tree line.

Will check that.

No luck. Where would this usually happen? Or could you please create a repro mission for it? (just the bird and the target)

Thanks a lot!

[JamesTheClarke 40]

No luck. Where would this usually happen? Or could you please create a repro mission for it? (just the bird and the target)

Thanks a lot!

I'll try to get something done which has a higher likely hood of replication, no promises though as I never tried to actually "force" it to happen before. I got to admit when it happens it always seems kinda random, encountered it on various maps, altitudes and obstacles. One thing is for sure, it's a lot more likely on A2 and A1 terrains than on vanilla A3 maps.

This mainly relates to objects placed on the roads - they are not correctly detected. We have a fix for it ready, but it's been delayed by adjustments in road data binarization. Some other improvements are still WIP (I know I mentioned them some time ago already)

It's true that the detection of objects is currently a big issue, and it's very easily noticeable as shown in the Vcom driving AI video.

However, I believe there's a bigger issue with driving AI hidden under the hood (no pun intended) of the problem mentioned above: The AI does not "understand" the terrain it is driving on, it's topography.

So many times I've seen a medium or heavy armour flank our lines (us shitting our collective pants at first sight ;)) only to then watch it drive straight into a ditch or a huge valley from which it can't climb out again, ruining all the tension of the encounter. The AI needs to be able to understand that driving straight forward to close in the distance, no matter the terrain looks like, should not be a viable option.

Ideally they should go "oh, there's a giant ditch here, I better drive around that hole or else I get stuck and the enemy gains the height advantage and surrounds my position" - or probably even better "Wait a minute, I'm a tank. I don't need to drive up close to enemy infantry in the first place. Let's back away from their effective firing distance and kill them at range with our huge anti infantry canon, yay!".

I hope this explanation illustrates better what I meant with their path finding, decision making and overall behaviour needing an overhaul / expansion.

Edited June 3, 2015 by JamesClarke

[oldy41 61]

...have you considered adding something like soldiers falling, and having to stand up again after being hit, as opposed to the current implementation of soldiers twitching and absorving bullets?

Oh yes, please do that!

I am a big fan of the great TPW_FALL mod, but it suffers from some animation transition glitches, which have been increased by the current engine's twitching and jerking.

Doing this right in the engine would bring a huge boost to both immersion and gameplay!

[mr_centipede 31]

I haven't encountered AI throwing smokes... How to trigger them throwing smokes? I've only played infantry vs infantry. Havent tried with vehicles

[JamesTheClarke 40]

I haven't encountered AI throwing smokes... How to trigger them throwing smokes? I've only played infantry vs infantry. Havent tried with vehicles

I don't believe they really use smoke effectively on a regular basis without the help of MCC, ASR, Vcom or some similar mod / script.

[SavageCDN 231]

If I'm not mistaken AI throwing smoke when suppressed is now in dev branch

[bullhorn 18]

I found the video I was referring to:

Is such a thing only possible with manually moving AI units via Zeus/MCC?

[das attorney 858]

I found the video I was referring to:

Is such a thing only possible with manually moving AI units via Zeus/MCC?

No, there's loads of scripts that can do all that sort of stuff. Go to mission editing/Armaholic to d/l and try some. Yes it isn't in default game yet (you can search the myriad conversations about it in this forum if you want to know why it isn't in the game yet).

If I'm not mistaken AI throwing smoke when suppressed is now in dev branch

Yes, just testing it and works nicely :)

[old_painless 182]

Out of curiosity, which stable release is this AI-using-smokes slated for ? The next one, or a later ?

[oukej 2911]

1.48

[froggyluv 2136]

Tweaked: ammoUsage affects AI weapon selection (increasing ammo cost, if target type is different)

Any new weight given to AT soldiers when armour target is known and present? Yes they sometimes do take the shot but all too often switch to and from rifle to launcher repeat..

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Just a wish:

Ability to force an AI driver to stay on the road and not go offroad for any reason whatsoever. If it's not feasible thats okay.

The purpose is to facilitate scripted convoy missions, which are currently virtually non-existent in A3. There are attempts made but very unstable due to the vehicles finding reasons to go offroad.

Repro:

Create a blank mission in the editor, on Altis.

Put down a Curator Module (Zeus), owner = #adminLogged

Put down a playable Man

Start the scenario.

Once loaded, Press Y.

In the Zeus interface, place a civilian car with driver, in Agios Konstantinos (north of Kavala along the coast), on the main road.

Orient the car southbound along the road.

Create a Move waypoint to the Kavala soccer field.

Keep other group/waypoint settings default, or Careless/Safe.

Observe the route it takes.

Edited June 6, 2015 by MDCCLXXVI

[bullhorn 18]

_setSkill = ["aimingAccuracy","aimingShake","aimingSpeed","Endurance","spotDistance","spotTime","courage","reloadSpeed","commanding","general"];

From my testing, it feels like each of these settings completely disregard range. It makes it difficult to keep AI dangerous at long range without making it TOO difficult at close range. It would be great if we could have a value that adjusts AI behavior according to range, for example generalRange - Set it above 0.5 and AI becomes exponentially more dangerous at long and longer ranges without modifying them otherwise.

Of course, I might be entirely wrong, so let me know. I've been messing around with these values for hours and couldn't find that 'perfect' middle spot I've been searching for. :)

[R3vo 2654]

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ----------

From my testing, it feels like each of these settings completely disregard range. It makes it difficult to keep AI dangerous at long range without making it TOO difficult at close range. It would be great if we could have a value that adjusts AI behavior according to range, for example generalRange - Set it above 0.5 and AI becomes exponentially more dangerous at long and longer ranges without modifying them otherwise.

Of course, I might be entirely wrong, so let me know. I've been messing around with these values for hours and couldn't find that 'perfect' middle spot I've been searching for. :)

There should be another parameter which defines the maximum attack range.

I noticed that issue yesterday in a coop mission, our squad was 900m away from the enemy without cover but they didn't attack us, even though machine gunners and marksmen and especially the tanks should have been able to attack us.

Just a wish:

[...]

The purpose is to facilitate scripted convoy missions, which are currently virtually non-existent in A3. There are attempts made but very unstable due to the vehicles finding reasons to go offroad.

[...]

Would be great to have a convoy waypoint, to easily set up working convoys

[bullhorn 18]

There should be another parameter which defines the maximum attack range.

I noticed that issue yesterday in a coop mission, our squad was 900m away from the enemy without cover but they didn't attack us, even though machine gunners and marksmen and especially the tanks should have been able to attack us.

That's a completely different thing... I know that some AI mods like ASR AI3/ACE3 already improves that but I don't know how exactly they achieve this without an official support for changing engagement range. We currently use only x1 scopes because Vanilla/MCC AI never engages beyond 350-400 meters. With ASR/ACE, I'm often engaged from 450-500 meters before I even notice the enemy and I was told that machine gunners sometimes engage from 600-700.

But this is less important because you can just do what we do and not use powerful x6-x20 scopes. Making AI challenging at long range (200-500) but not OP at short ranges (under 150) is difficult with the current settings available to us.

[Kydoimos 916]

Ability to force an AI driver to stay on the road and not go offroad for any reason whatsoever. If it's not feasible thats okay.[/Quote]

This would be a wonderful addition! I'd love to have an option to keep tanks from going off roads when they are in Combat behaviour. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to implement - but certainly, if it's feasible - that'd be great!