AI Discussion (dev branch)

[royaltyinexile 175]

Lost the AI reaction to unseen gunfire and grenade explosions, close by. This seemed to have been rectified last time, but now its gone back to how it was, would be nice if a dev commented on the progress of basic AI reactions.

If you can provide the repro mission or link to the tracker where the steps are reproducible, programmers are far more likely to do something about it. Basically: no repro, no fix. :)

Oh, and as a side note, there haven't been too many AI updates this week as our programmers needed to address some problems that popped up in regards to UAVs.

Best,

RiE

[dr. hladik 231]

Oh, and as a side note, there haven't been too many AI updates this week ...

Best,

RiE

It will be my priority next week!

[nimrod_z 8]

If you can provide the repro mission or link to the tracker where the steps are reproducible, programmers are far more likely to do something about it. Basically: no repro, no fix. :)

Oh, and as a side note, there haven't been too many AI updates this week as our programmers needed to address some problems that popped up in regards to UAVs.

Best,

RiE

quotes like this from devs making the game REALLY scare me. a repo of the issue is provided in a VIDEO !!!!! what this basically confirms for me is that code is being changed and the preview button to test said fixes is NOT getting pushed or tested in any way. instead its just code being pushed out the door saying, here, see if this anything better.. now that being said, I use to never doubt that BIS would take care of their products even after launch. but looking at whats going on on the last few weeks and the news of the release, i'm really doubting arma 3 future. I say this because anyone with half a brain knows that once the game is released (no matter what state its in) there will only be a skeleton crew to address critical issues that may arise. the rest of the dev team will move on to other projects like in BIS case - DayZ... arma3 should have been delayed 2 weeks ago when the "Prepping for early release" caption popped up notes in corner of screen everytime you started the game.

anyways, im still hoping for the miracle that is a playable working stable game on release, but you guys are not giving the community much hope. you can obviously see that by the forums here.

and thank Dr Hladik for reassuring us that at least 1 person is still working with and concerned with the current AI state..

[Alwarren 2767]

quotes like this from devs making the game REALLY scare me. a repo of the issue is provided in a VIDEO !!!!!

Well I disagree about that, asking for a repro mission makes a lot of sense - after all, you want to fix the issue, not try to guess the prerequisites to get to the issue.

[Dwarden 1125]

there are 100s variables which may change in the game ... w/o proving your test mission it's highly unlikely to get 1:1 setup ...

[royaltyinexile 175]

quotes like this from devs making the game REALLY scare me. a repo of the issue is provided in a VIDEO !!!!!

As other replies have already outlined, a video isn't a repro.

Well I disagree about that, asking for a repro mission makes a lot of sense - after all, you want to fix the issue, not try to guess the prerequisites to get to the issue.

there are 100s variables which may change in the game ... w/o proving your test mission it's highly unlikely to get 1:1 setup ...

A repro is a verifiable set of steps based on certain preconditions, often with an observation or set of notes.

This is a place for discussing the changes we're making to the AI, not for ejaculating views about how products are developed or how repros should be made.

As I've said before, this thread stays clean or this thread gets ignored. Please stay on topic. :)

Best,

RiE

Edited August 9, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

[fabrizio_t 58]

Dev build: 75/717

Lost the AI reaction to unseen gunfire and grenade explosions, close by. This seemed to have been rectified last time, but now its gone back to how it was, would be nice if a dev commented on the progress of basic AI reactions.

:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vicdgVsilQM

Often AI starts doing awful things as soon as it starts "fleeing".

Problem is you just can't tell whether it's in fleeing mode or not, without some kind of logging.

I'd suggest to put "this allowfleeing 0" as init for your AI units and run your mission many times.

There's a chance your problems will disappear.

If so, fleeing behaviour (notoriously broken) is to blame.

EDIT: Dr. Hladik, may we expect some fixes for AI fleeing behaviour ?

Some requests:

* Allow a unit to flee INDIVIDUALLY (at the moment when unit flees, suddenly the entire group flees too)

* Allow a unit to flee IGNORING formation

* Allow a unit to move towards some meaningful safe position, not just wandering around

* Avoid having a unit wandering slowly, while standing up with weapon pointed to the sky

* Avoid having a unit dropping prone and idle, ignoring any threats not exacty in front of it

Edited August 9, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[Champy_UK 1]

Whislt your in here :) One question i would like to know is how the AI drivers would assess potentials routes for a convoy? Are they set up like a sat nav and have the option to do :- as the crow flies, shortest route, longest route and also will they always pick the same route if there are potentially other roads that would lead to rome :)

TIA

[nimrod_z 8]

As other replies have already outlined, a video isn't a repro.

A repro is a verifiable set of steps based on certain preconditions, often with an observation or set of notes.

This is a place for discussing the changes we're making to the AI, not for ejaculating views about how products are developed or how repros should be made.

As I've said before, this thread stays clean or this thread gets ignored. Please stay on topic. :)

Best,

RiE

ok, I wasn't trying to push anyones buttons, but after reading that again im gonna have to apologize a lil. it was just 1 of those mornings :). I have faith that every effort to correct major issues is being done. my point about vid and the reactions was in referance to the player standing around a corner and shooting weapon in air and throwing a grenade and the AI did very little.. to reproduce that its just 1 unit around the corner from the other and not in direct site of each other. and I do absolutely agree that repo missions are critical to spot and address issues, I just thought that since this was so blatent (only 2 units around the corner from 1 another) that it would be easy to repo in studio. I also understand that sometimes things slip by and/or are a work in progress. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what we end up with. let me end by saying this, I play arma in someway shape or form almost every night and thank you BIS for all that you do for your games, the community, and keeping us informed weather it be good or bad. you could ignore us or not care at all like a lot of other studios but that just doesn't seem to be your way at all. keep up the hard work and good or bad I always find myself playing and scripting for arma.

[afp 1]

there are 100s variables which may change in the game ... w/o proving your test mission it's highly unlikely to get 1:1 setup ...

We need some standards for test missions and difficulty etc to tune up AI against some basic configuration. Then AI strength can be adjusted up and down a bit for lower or higher difficulties. I would say that standard tests should be performed like this:

- Difficulty - Regular - this allow tuning of most difficulty variables and is closest to "medium" game level. This will minimize the differences in case of test errors.

- Accuracy for friendly and enemy - default for regular, in .arma3profile file or game difficulty settings.

- AI skills in editor - 0.5 - for the same reason - we deal with "medium" values.

Never let AI groups without waypoints. For enemy groups make them "open fire engage at will" and "combat / aware / stealth" behavior. The speed should be usually run so they don't stick too much to formation. For friendly AI don't forget to set their behavior with UI commands - usually "open fire" and "Aware" behavior (~ 3 1, ~ 3 5, ~ 7 5) so to be sure they engage when they see the enemy.

When you put a video, make sure you specify the difficulty used, used mods (highly preferably without any), the map with waypoints.

As the devs said, include the test mission as often is possible (just upload the .pbo file it on a file sharing site like mediafire.com - pbo in editor - "save as user mission")

[old_painless 182]

Nimrod_Z, while I do follow your point, the video tells nothing about in-game choices of difficulty, various choices of AI levels, what type of team he was up against, what were their ranks and so on and so on. Did they have waypoints and what were they? It makes sense for BI to only chase the problems (backed by video) that they can make happen at their end as well.

Edit: Heh, that is what happens when you go AFK during a post. A lot of agreement, all is good.

On the issue of repro missions, is the PBO really a complete set of information? I mean, I could still change config files and play on Veteran or Regular which would make the mission play out very differently ?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Old_Painless

[Windwalking 18]

I can confirm that the AI does not drop safe stance immediately if fired a gun Very close to them.That is if the shots where aimed at the sky or no where they can see. However they drop safe stance and go into danger if they saw the bullet hit anywhere near them.

I do believe they should drop to danger if heard a shot right away and begin investigating. This affects gameplay in a lot of ways. For example, if u attack a base, everyone in the base should be alerted since they can hear the shots, but you can obviously see that if the AI did not see the bullets, it won't react at all. Resulting in disconnected immersion.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Windwalking

[chrisb 196]

If you can provide the repro mission or link to the tracker where the steps are reproducible, programmers are far more likely to do something about it. Basically: no repro, no fix. :)

Oh, and as a side note, there haven't been too many AI updates this week as our programmers needed to address some problems that popped up in regards to UAVs.

Best,

RiE

I understand that you devs want to reproduce the problem i.e. your repro.

So just to make it clear how this was done, as it was not a mission just a simple test.

Only mod used: dfs_3rdperson (just to get a better angle on the view).

Straight into the game, touch nothing other than place one Opfor unit and one blufor group. Change no settings at all concerning the mission/test, so out of the box, so as to speak (default).

One waypoint for the group to simply move forward toward the corner, but to stop short.

That’s it, fire into the sky.

Now as said, I understand that you like repro’s, but this is box standard AI behaviour, repeatable thousands of times without any details.

The release of the game is in around four weeks, the attitude of no repro no fix, does not really bother me, I’m not trying to sell my product, but it should really bother you, or BIS. This is not a complicated test or mission, in-fact you have addressed it once, or was that just by chance it changed.

Basic AI behaviour like this has been around for a decade or more, stock AI, so to say you require a repro, it seems from your side a must, or nothing is done, from my side as a customer, for quite some years now, it seems neither needed or expected, seeing that the problem is hardly new..;)

P.S. same happens with armour fire, if the armour is unseen and fires, they don't react, but turn the engine on and they hit the floor.. :confused:

____________________________________________

A reaction like this to sound, would be better::)

Edited August 10, 2013 by ChrisB

[cotabucky 10]

ok, I wasn't trying to push anyones buttons, but after reading that again im gonna have to apologize a lil. it was just 1 of those mornings :). I have faith that every effort to correct major issues is being done. my point about vid and the reactions was in referance to the player standing around a corner and shooting weapon in air and throwing a grenade and the AI did very little.. to reproduce that its just 1 unit around the corner from the other and not in direct site of each other. and I do absolutely agree that repo missions are critical to spot and address issues, I just thought that since this was so blatent (only 2 units around the corner from 1 another) that it would be easy to repo in studio. I also understand that sometimes things slip by and/or are a work in progress. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what we end up with. let me end by saying this, I play arma in someway shape or form almost every night and thank you BIS for all that you do for your games, the community, and keeping us informed weather it be good or bad. you could ignore us or not care at all like a lot of other studios but that just doesn't seem to be your way at all. keep up the hard work and good or bad I always find myself playing and scripting for arma.

+1 .Nimrod and I have been friends for a long time and up until recently I haven't even had a doubt but WE have been burned before and ignoring the signs is just silly... I am an extreme hardcore fan of OFP/ARMA series for many,MANY years.BIS is my favorite company for many reasons and the 1st being loyal to there fans.I just have to share my concerns.I can only imagine a miracle taking place to get things on track for Sept.Well you have my money and as long as the support continues I will always be here.I just hope some of the realy unstable stuff gets fixed up so we can get back to making missions(again I know its a beta but Sept ready for release???) lol I'm praying for a miracle hehe ;) .Just keep up the good work and like always just be there making it better and better and we will continue to stick around and support you for the long haul.

[Tyl3r99 41]

The AI are way much better than before :)

is it me or have i noticed that when attacking a single unit in a group when using a silenced weapon, the group does NOT know your location!

plus if you have a trigger "detected by opfor" it simply will not set off because they do not know who the attacker was.

- i hope this is still the case!

can someone clarify this works :D

[daskunk 1]

Things have definitely got better ... a few weeks ago i made a circle of opfor as a test for a trigger detected by, i teleported into the middle of them they all pointed their guns at me looked around them and done a runner for cover lol , was the funniest thing I have ever seen them do.

[royaltyinexile 175]

the attitude of no repro no fix, does not really bother me, I’m not trying to sell my product, but it should really bother you, or BIS.

While I'm not sure how - following a request by two devs to provide the repro mission, in a thread designed to discuss AI, including AI programmers - that you've reached the conclusion it doesn't bother us, but ok.

I think the bit that you're missing is that AI is also a product of the data, not just of the behaviour. If the data is broken, it breaks the AI, but the programmers don't fix the data. The programmers only try to fix the AI and shout at other people to fix their broken data. They shout a lot louder if they've spent some time profiling AI behaviour only to find out it's because of a mis-configured asset. They go very silent otherwise ;)

For example, the data things that affect the AI in your case are, for example, at very least least: The configuration of the weapon the player is firing; The configuration of the environment objects between the player and the AI; The time of day.

When I tried to reproduce the behavior you've shown I got a different reaction.

Repro 1

Most often the AI team split up and sent two guys to investigate the shot, eventually killing me.

In a second repro, I move the position of the enemies back when the shot is triggered.

Repro 2

More often than not, the AI don't react, which could be a product of the changes made to AI behaviour or it could be due to badly configured weapon properties.

Of course I've probably set up the mission in a number of different ways to you, so we're not testing the same situation, really. However, when I provide the repro, we can then both see if we can reproduce the behaviour given the same set of preconditions.

The point is, on my first repro, I didn't have a bug, so the programmers can't fix it; it's only when I change some conditions that I can see a potential problem, and that's how repros - not videos - work.

It appears to me that this issue would either be a product of a recent 'fix' to AI audibility, or misconfigured values for how loud the weapon is. Both of which are easier to tweak, test, and balance against the original repro, which I can now shove under a programmer's nose.

Best,

RiE

Edited August 10, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

[Windwalking 18]

RoyalityInExile, thank you for the detailed explanation, It helps. Also thank you for your continued work on this.

[Masharra 10]

RoyalityInExile, thank you for the detailed explanation, It helps. Also thank you for your continued work on this.

Agreed. That insight can def help out.

[sbua16 19]

Yeah, thanks for the explanation RiE. I think that sometimes we, myself included, don't realise the complexities of the systems involved. Initially I thought "But.. it's simple, just place a couple of units down and test.. must take like 2 minutes.. jeez". But pointing out the different variables at play puts into the perspective the types of problems that you, as developers, face when fiddling around with these systems.

I'm not a massive fan of the AI at the moment, but I hope it all goes well for you guys, and I trust that you'll pull it out of the bag by the time release day comes. Also, on behalf of us players, I'd like to thank you for taking the time out to come and interact with us, it's something that I, and am sure a lot of people, appreciate a lot.

[chrisb 196]

While I'm not sure how - following a request by two devs to provide the repro mission, in a thread designed to discuss AI, including AI programmers - that you've reached the conclusion it doesn't bother us, but ok.

I think the bit that you're missing is that AI is also a product of the data, not just of the behaviour. If the data is broken, it breaks the AI, but the programmers don't fix the data. The programmers only try to fix the AI and shout at other people to fix their broken data. They shout a lot louder if they've spent some time profiling AI behaviour only to find out it's because of a mis-configured asset. They go very silent otherwise ;)

For example, the data things that affect the AI in your case are, for example, at very least least: The configuration of the weapon the player is firing; The configuration of the environment objects between the player and the AI; The time of day.

When I tried to reproduce the behavior you've shown I got a different reaction.

Repro 1

Most often the AI team split up and sent two guys to investigate the shot, eventually killing me.

http://s8.postimg.org/ln1url9h1/JAC_R_1.jpg

In a second repro, I move the position of the enemies back when the shot is triggered.

Repro 2

More often than not, the AI don't react, which could be a product of the changes made to AI behaviour or it could be due to badly configured weapon properties.

http://s14.postimg.org/ps51j194x/JAC_R_2.jpg

Of course I've probably set up the mission in a number of different ways to you, so we're not testing the same situation, really. However, when I provide the repro, we can then both see if we can reproduce the behaviour given the same set of preconditions.

The point is, on my first repro, I didn't have a bug, so the programmers can't fix it; it's only when I change some conditions that I can see a potential problem, and that's how repros - not videos - work.

It appears to me that this issue would either be a product of a recent 'fix' to AI audibility, or misconfigured values for how loud the weapon is. Both of which are easier to tweak, test, and balance against the original repro, which I can now shove under a programmer's nose.

Best,

RiE

I appreciate the time and effort you put in to explain, it was very helpful, thank you.

Regards the not bothered, it was the simple, "no repro, no fix" line, threw me a little. If I had a problem with something I produced, then a video was supplied highlighting the problem, it would be a slightly different approach I'd take, that's all it was.;)

[cotabucky 10]

One thing thats stands out is the support from BIS employees to us PC people.Dwarden especially I can remember commenting to so many people and realy keeping the community informed.I'm here as so many others.To doubt is human nature but to look at BIS track record is a nice moral boost for hope :) .Keep up what you do and have always done.

[KeyCat 131]

Below is a link to a repro showing AI's spider sense. It's impossible to sneak up close on a AI sentry, at ~7-8 m the AI always detects you even if you crawl 10 cm/min. Tested on Veteran settings and 0.10, 0.25, 0.50, 0.75 skill levels. Setting the AI skill level to 0.000001 you can sneak up close but in practice such low skill level makes the AI both deaf and blind and you can perform a tap dance around him without he reacts.

http://keycat.no-ip.com/files/A3B_AI_Spider_Sense.zip

Repro steps:

1. At mission start go prone.

2. Slow crawl to around the house corner to SW and make sure to stay out of AI's peripheral vision.

3. When you are ~7-8 meters behind the AI you will be detected.

As I said before being able to slow crawl to sneak up on (or sneak past) AI sentries and take them down silently adds a new dimension to ArmA and makes high tension stealth mission a possibility. It may not be realistic to be able to do it with AT/AA tubes and 30+ kg combat gear on your back but at least for some of the classes like sniper/spotter/specops or maybe when you have less than X kg of gear?

It was possible in A2:OA at some point (can not remember exact version) since I made simple script to silently takedown AI from behind when distance <1 m. Some will probably say, just use your silenced pistol and shoot from ~7-8 m but it's impossible to get a one shot kill thru the helmets using the pistol and you end up firing several shots and being detected.

We need some standards for test missions and difficulty etc to tune up AI against some basic configuration. Then AI strength can be adjusted up and down a bit for lower or higher difficulties.

This is a good idea and maybe we could share a couple of simple test missions that tests AI's ability to hear you, their ability spot you at day/night/illuminated by light sources, in high grass/dense vegetation etc. We also have tools like Charons TroopMon that could help a bit when testing or as Spamurai suggests make all/some of the AI debug features somehow available in the dev-branch, that would be even better and I'm sure many of the AI "quirks" would be highlighted and eventually fixed!

Also want to say that there are quite a bit of negativity floating around in some of the threads but I'm sure things will improve, and just like with OFP/A1/A2 things will be sorted but it requires time and patience. Keep it up BIS, no one can blame you for not listening and your post release support have always been top notch!

/KC

Edited August 13, 2013 by KeyCat

[UGLY58 10]

IMO, the behavior most missing from AI at the moment is fear !

If rounds starting whipping round your ears the first thing you do is hit the deck, second crawl for cover and third take a few seconds to even work out if you are hit or not and try to get orientated. Adrenaline is flowing at this stage to the point where you cannot aim for crap for a few seconds. Your initial priority is survival.

Now look at the AI reaction in A3 when you fire at them.

They generally drop to a knee to look for your firing point and fire back. Very unconcerned about the fact that rounds are landing close to them. Either they all use lots of drugs or they really don`t have any suppression routines on them at all. They react way to fast and their accuracy is unaffected by fear.

I don`t mind the AI being accurate ONCE they have located me. But if I get the drop on them and engage them first they should not be able to reverse the fire fight anywhere near as quick as the do at present.

Arma 3 needs some suppression routines as started to be developed for AI by the community in Arma 2. This to me is the key area of work required right now to make the game what I feel Arma should be - a simulation.

[jiltedjock 10]

I appreciate the time and effort you put in to explain, it was very helpful, thank you.

Regards the not bothered, it was the simple, "no repro, no fix" line, threw me a little. If I had a problem with something I produced, then a video was supplied highlighting the problem, it would be a slightly different approach I'd take, that's all it was.;)

If you are contributing bugs to this thread, you are a beta tester. The only way to repair bugs, defects and regressions is for BIS to reproduce them, which can only be done by supplying the exact mission that you see the issues occur in, so that all the values and variables in your mission are the same in the one that BIS will test. It's that simple.