AI Discussion (dev branch)

[KeyCat 131]

@Azzur33 and KeyCat: that issue has been pointed out several times already.

Sorry, but I must have missed that.

you will see at the end that the second i kill a squad member the rest will turn like robots with aimbots. it's really frustrating and i hope it will be fixed since, again, it will render all other systems, that are in place to make detection more realistic, useless.

Yep, looks like the same issue.

please make a ticket if there isn't already one. i was going to, but i have problems logging into the tracker since the hack attack.

I will add it to the FT later tomorrow if no-one else done it.

The explanation is that when all 8 AI group members are on wedge formation, even if squad leader and units on left are facing away, units 4, 6, 8 were clearly sideways. They move their heads, watching around. They do Not detect me when I'm hiding and are not looking for me. But they Are ABLE to see my muzzle flash/puff of smoke if they are looking at my direction the moment I pull the trigger. If not, I'm rather safe, until the team leader finds me with the scope (if I'm stupid enough to let him...).

As it should be.

If they see the muzzle flash, their reaction is quick and lethal.

When I'm behind the bush, they do Not see me even if they are facing me, so obviously I'm well hidden.

If I position myself in front of the bush, standing, they'll shoot at me right away.

I can crawl from behind the bush closer, hidden in the grass, they do not detect me.

Working as it should be. I misjudged the AI.

Good observation and it can explain parts of their behavior but I can't say I agree fully with you. I still think it's to much at these skill levels used in the repro (0-0.4) if skill settings where ~0.90-1.00 then maybe. Also see my comments below regarding AI seeing the target thru scope or binocs, it should be close to impossible at the timeframe we are seeing here.

I took some screenshots from the same test mission (A3B_AI_Terminators.zip) seen from the AI's perspective...

Me prone and concealed in the high grass and bush

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9u36tczmxmu8pkh/01.png

Observing enemies

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5957vdxm11xgtz/02.png

This is what you (or the AI) would see when standing ~5 m from the bush

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhrrgzsczf985lh/03.png

View from ~5 m looking thru scope

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lzk89xnltlx6ht4/04.png

View from ~35 m

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ic37lyw2r7m1xu9/05.png

View from ~35 m looking thru scope

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhy7bqazoqw3ldq/06.png

View from ~35 m looking thru binocs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wi5jq7ihe6tuoky/07.png

View from ~100 m

https://www.dropbox.com/s/37o3uglal7x9z6m/08.png

View from ~100 m looking thru scope

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8qtmbe4voodc8f/09.png

View from ~100 m looking thru binocs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fv0iwndsoji85o3/10.png

As seen in picture 03-08 it's very very hard to detect the target even if you know exactly where to look and also if you look thru the scope at various ranges. I would say it's impossible for any human to detect the target and identify it as enemy within just a few seconds.

Using the scope/binocs (picture 09 and 10) the target is quite easy to spot when you know it's there and know where to look but thats because the grass/clutter isn't rendered all the way and it makes no sense that it should be easier to spot anything the longer the distance get, I mean if you can not spot it from ~35 m using scope/binocs you can not spot it form ~100 m either.

So far I can see two issues with room for improvements...

1. Something seems wierd with the AI detection routine when you kill one group member since the rest of the group instantly knows exactly where you are (this also on lower skill settings). Maybe it's also related to this problem described here?

2. It should be much harder for AI to detect you when prone, stationary and concealed in grass/bushes/etc. and especially if you are wearing a ghillie suit. IIRC this was tweaked/improved in some previous dev-build but I can't find it in the changelog now?

All above is of course IMHO ;)

/KC

Edited November 24, 2014 by KeyCat

[Tyl3r99 41]

I like keycats response...

[Azzur33 1]

So far I can see two issues with room for improvements...

1. Something seems wierd with the AI detection routine when you kill one group member since the rest of the group instantly knows exactly where you are (this also on lower skill settings). Maybe it's also related to this problem described here?

2. It should be much harder for AI to detect you when prone, stationary and concealed in grass/bushes/etc. and especially if you are wearing a ghillie suit. IIRC this was tweaked/improved in some previous dev-build but I can't find it in the changelog now?

1) I'm not sure about that, I've hade mixed results, and this is really difficult to repro accurately. I doesn't happen all the time, and when it does, is there something else that could have affected the result.

2) They don't detect you when prone, stationary and concealed if there's enough distance, even if they are looking the right direction, until they try to find you.

But yeah, then they'll see you with scopes and binocs if even part of you is visible. I don't know how much does camo does ... does AI see you better if you are wearing nice colourful t-shirt? No idea.

I do think that they might detect you too quickly with the scope when you are (almost) concealed but stationary, compared to human players ability to do the same, too.

Tweaking that may be difficult, yes. It could break things, or produce some side-effects.

I can live with what it is now, I can think that they are just well trained soldiers, and try to be more careful.

And if I'm doing some stealth missions (which are cool sometimes, but mostly annoying), I wouldn't do it in bright daylight and with normal camo, hiding in bushes. Too dangerous. So this is kind of a marginal thing.

I'll try to make a quick video from recordings of my tests today, if I have time.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Azzur33

[bad benson 1733]

i agree with everything you said KeyCat. just one thing. muzzle smoke. this can get you spotted very fast. but you are talking about seconds here so i get what you mean.

[maturin 12]

100 meters, they hear the shot, reaction time few seconds, finding target easily.

200 meters, they hear the shot, same reaction time, but finding the target takes longer.

I wanted to pull this out for emphasis. This is a very old problem and he really does mean an agonizingly immense number of seconds where the AI just ignores incoming fire that doesn't hit them. It makes them look like morons, feigning not to hear a nearby gunshot until they suddenly and simultaneously decide to take action. What are we supposed to think is going through their robotic heads in those five seconds?

I mention this especially because ASR AI mod for ArmA 2 somehow got them to investigate sounds more or less instantly. It should be an easy tweak.

[bad benson 1733]

yea and there was a mod for arma 3 released just now to fix that. which shows how big of a problem it is.

[dr. hladik 231]

300 meters, shooting near them, hitting the ground around them and in front of them, no reaction.

After wounding or killing one of them, very quick reaction to go prone, and looking for the shooter few seconds later.

Thinking in progress.

[Tonci87 163]

Another Problem is that the whole AI group knows about your position at the same time as if they share the same mind. It should take a second or two to share knowledge about an enemy.

[bonham 10]

AI vehicles will often get stuck on a rock, the edge of a container or a building. They simply don't realize that they're stuck and continue to drive forward, which gets them nowhere. Happens especially with vehicles going off road. Sometimes it seems like they actively seek rocks in wide, open areas.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Thinking in progress.

Good stuff here.

I would consider this as hypothetical explanation:

* the AI unit being hit instantly knows about the shooter (clearly a bug). It's probably "revealed" to it.

* AI units from same group instantly know it too, since "known" enemies pool is shared through the group, hence they're able to pinpoint the shooter.

Dr. Hladik?

Edited August 21, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[afp 1]

@Azzur33 and @afp: what average framerate you had during those tests, what was the distance between you and enemy squad? Thanks for info

60fps

distance to enemy 15m

enemies standing

enemies skill: 0.5 regular

There is a new "turning" way, like fast small steps. This speed is slightly faster then the original very slow speed but still very slow. I think this speed should only depend by skill and stance and nothing else.

Edited August 22, 2013 by afp

[xendance 3]

Would it be feasible for you devs to make the AI move faster when under fire and having a move waypoint active? And by faster I don't mean actually running faster, but trying to cover the ground faster.

This is just based on my experiences from the finnish defence forces, but during an attack we were told to advance by sprinting and diving to prone. Sprints shouldn't be more than 3 seconds, after that you were supposed to lie down behind cover and fire from there.

In ArmA ,3 I think, a squad on the offense moves way too sluggishly and it kills the momentum of the attack immediately upon enemy fire. AI soldiers usually just prone on the spot and rarely move, and if they move they get up and stare at the enemy for few seconds before moving. The AI should get up only after it has found good enough cover where it could advance to. This happens even though there are many other squads supporting it and attacking with it. This effectively makes the AI sitting ducks, and improving this would make the AI much more enjoyable imo.

Hopefully few CPU cycles could be spared for this kind of stuff :\

[killerwhale 1]

Thinking in progress.

how about thinking in progress with at least some animation of where shooting might be coming from. we shouldn't really be playing just animation, but if this is what it mounted to, then maybe animation wouldn't hurt? :j:

[kilrbe3 37]

how about thinking in progress with at least some animation of where shooting might be coming from. we shouldn't really be playing just animation, but if this is what it mounted to, then maybe animation wouldn't hurt? :j:

Think it was 'sarcasm' , is what the Dr. was saying haha :P Animation would be nice though, either way!

[GranolaBar 10]

It's planned to give by default (not in scenario) to AI the possibility to get in an empty vehicule ? to move quickly or defend himself when you attack a base or other.

Or when you get out your tank, cars or other for some reasons and you died, AI could get in your vehicule...

[klamacz 448]

It's planned to give by default (not in scenario) to AI the possibility to get in an empty vehicule ? to move quickly or defend himself when you attack a base or other.

Or when you get out your tank, cars or other for some reasons and you died, AI could get in your vehicule...

It's difficult topic, there are many scenarios when you wouldn't want them to use empty vehicles and many when you would. That's why it's up to mission maker to setup the triggers/waypoints in a way that makes sense for actual situation.

[Smurf 12]

What about a "Defend" type of waypoint where the AI can make use of crates, empty static weapons or vehicles so you don't have to assign them one by one or they can be more autonomous when a gunner dies or something?

Also on the same guidelines, the loiter waypoint for foot units could be expanded to make the units in the group to interact with the objects and ambient within a radius; Sitting in chairs, rest on objects in general, play those nice idle animations, chat to each other (The Sims style?), smoke a cigarrete and things that can only be anchieved with some scripting. Greater mission immersion in a easy way isntead of having to write down every waypoint+animation for each unit.

Sorry for OT.

[KeyCat 131]

Had some time combing thru the FT and as Bad Benson said this (or a very similar issue) has been reported already in #0008204 and according to the moderator this should been fixed ~2013-08-12 so the ticket is closed.

Now, do I make a new ticket or continue in #0008204?

/KC

[maddogx 13]

Had some time combing thru the FT and as Bad Benson said this (or a very similar issue) has been reported already in #0008204 and according to the moderator this should been fixed ~2013-08-12 so the ticket is closed.

Now, do I make a new ticket or continue in #0008204?

/KC

If you can still reproduce the issue as described in #8204 by following the repro steps there, then continue in #8204. ;)

[Azzur33 1]

Had some time combing thru the FT and as Bad Benson said this (or a very similar issue) has been reported already...

Now, do I make a new ticket or continue in #0008204?

That was quite a big issue, and made me a little paranoid about AI abilities.

If you killed one member of the group, wherever you went hiding, the searching 2 AI always knew where to look.

Even if you magically teleported yourself to another place where they could not see you, AI would suddenly change their direction and were moving towards your new location.

I can confirm this is fixed.

I tested it few times to be sure, and managed to fool AI every time.

Thank goodness.

I had forgotten this one and I was unsure if it was fixed or not.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

consider it fixed.

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

[klamacz 448]

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

]

didn't went in yet

[Windwalking 18]

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

Please do not release the game without fixing this.

[Necramonium 10]

I have to say, the AI at the moment is horrible, especially enemy AI, and there is also something horribly wrong with their damage models. Sometimes bullets go straight through them, you have to shoot them 5 times before they die, even with headshots! While i can be shot from 500 meters with one bullet and drop dead instantly.

[maturin 12]

Bullets don't go through anyone. You're just a bad shot.