ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[Hicks_09 10]

It's very easy for people to fall into the trap of believe that because they personally have had no problems with steam that therefore there are no problems with steam. Trying to convince these people otherwise is an exercise in futility. Much the same way as was the case with GFWL. I had no problems personally with it. Didn't stop large numbers of paying customers having a torrid time with it. Just because it worked fine for me - I didn't see the need to want it included with every title. It wasn't and isn't needed. Just like mandatory steam requirements. However you'll find a crowd with the "No steam - no sale" mentality.

Steam functions as a store. You have the chance of having a non steam tied executable which can be ran independently. Otherwise it will require steam to run. You will however need to have the title fully updated before it is first ran. Then you can choose to not auto update it - not before that first run or re-installation. This opt out of auto update has for some people been ignored as well. It's an iffy implementation. Just like the "offline" mode. BIS hedging their bets and talking about tweaking this aspect is puzzling. Unless they are now working on programming steam then they are subject to the performance of steam and the flaws that come with it. If you want it to work when offline mode doesn't work then guess what? You need an independent offline executable that isn't tied to the drm. If that accommodation is going to be put in place to solve issues with the iffy offline mode then why bother tying the title to a drm in the first place. Why not just sell Arma 3 through steam as with Arma 2. Why even shackle it to a drm? More likely is that you'll be stuck with a shackled executable. And when offline mode doesn't work... well then that's just tough and you have a £30 coaster - and then the complaining starts. Something that could have been avoided if there was an independent executable.

With Steamworks you are tied to steam regardless. Steam is a store with optional drm components and how they have sold Arma 2 previously. Steamworks is a drm with baubles. While the drm was patched out of Arma 2 after release - a good move by BIS. Patching the steam out of steamworks just isn't going to happen. All you can then do is ignore the title and make it clear that you won't be supporting BIS until they provide alternate releases that aren't tied to a drm client. Money talks, companies are not your friends. Get that relationship clear and you start getting a good service on the customers terms. We're the ones forking over the money.

If they were to release a drm, steamworks free version via retail or gog down the line I'd be interested, so what if it takes longer to releases? Until that point however it's not even worth £5 - and certainly not worth positive mention or marketing when discussing the titles release with others.

Consumer rights are taken far more seriously in Europe than the US. I get the impression that a large part of the customer base for the Arma series is from Europe, hence the backlash against the issues of rights that Steam raises.

[Ezcoo 47]

If you upload a mod, a file, or a picture once uploaded it's of their property and you don't own any right on them. They are free to sell even informations about you. That's what is nasty. Steam is a bad company.

Agreed. While I think that Gabe is a nice guy and Steam is nice company that actually cares about their customers (in general) I neither like this part of the Steam Workshop Contribution Agreement:

2. License

You grant to Valve the following rights, which Valve may exercise or not in its sole discretion:

a. You grant to Valve a worldwide, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, assignable right and license to (a) use, copy, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media, (b) identify You as the source of the Contribution, and © sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law.

I'll repeat myself, but: I hope that this is considered as constructive criticism instead of anti-Steam spam.

[derdoe 10]

I am just disappointed that BIS rather releases their game on a single platform that is therefore mandatory to "keep a release date in 2013" instead of staying independent and releasing the game when its done.

BIS has never really kept their first release announcements and i dont mind that at all. Release it when its done and not when you feel like stepping on half of the community's feet. BIS has single-handedly split the community, cut off some members of this community from any chance to play this and by using steam as distribution network cut our rights as customers. Its annoying and its annoying that BIS is going this way knowing that this is against the community poll they asked us to answer. I thought BIS was the only game developer that is listening to fans and normal customers, i guess now there is no such game developer anymore.

Job not at all well done!

[Smurf 12]

You can't put Steam, Origin\UPlay and GFWL in the same bag.

[msy 22]

I'm not familiar with Steam at all. Will I still be able to play MP games on LAN?

Have you heard CS before?

[nikiforos 450]

A lot of negative feelings here and to be honest even if I have zero Steam experience, it affects me in a negative way.

[derdoe 10]

A lot of negative feelings here and to be honest even if I have zero Steam experience, it affects me in a negative way.

Not everything about Steam is bad, you get most of the games there instantly, prices are normally either same as buying it at your local game shop or even a bit cheaper, i dont mind the other things it brings as features, i do mind though what happens with my customer rights and the technical snags it brings along.

[Binkowski 26]

Boy is this thread hilarious.

I didn't think there could be so many uninformed people in one place.

Obviously I didn't read through the 30 or so pages that sprung up over night, but I can see most of the people complaining have no used Steam in years. I don't see why someone would be against convience.

Oh and I've seen a new excuse for the first time. People are thinking it's going to impede modding? LOL. Guess you missed that Steam has Steam Workshop which promotes modding and gets it out to a larger audience. It's not exclusive to workshop, you can still have Armaholic, just like Skyrim still has Skyrim Nexus. All it does is make it easier for those who want it to be easier. Steam has never restricted modding, that is damn funny.

I can't go on. It's clear that some of you are just TOO ignorant to ever have their views change. Have fun not playing ArmA 3 on an easier and more convenient platform!

I like how you're calling the people who don't agree with you "uniformed" when many of them have different reasons for not wanting it on steam. You could you know, just respect their decision.

I use steam everyday and I don't agree with it being used on ArmA3.

Last I checked, you aren't a modder. So you can stop telling us how "great" steamworkshop is and such. Even if it was as good as you say, I still wouldn't use it, and neither would many other modders. And I'm going to say this for a third time, if I were to release an addon here on the forums, or on armaholic what is to stop some asshole on Steam workshop from taking my work and releasing it there under his name without crediting me or the other people who worked to get that. We make addons / mods for FREE and for the enjoyment of others. And to have people like that who could take our work, redistribute it without crediting us, and taking credit for themselves for something they did not do. That's just wrong.

And no, we're not "ignorant" because we have a different view point than you. Some of us have legitimate reasons as to why we do not want to use Steam to run our game. What's wrong with us having a different opinion than you?

[sorophx 25]

It's very easy for people to fall into the trap of believe that because they personally have had no problems with steam that therefore there are no problems with steam.

very nicely put, your whole post, I'd sign under every word

[CHB68 10]

I'd like to think that this will not have any negative effect on community/user made scripts, mods and missions.....

Next to this; platform independent dedicated severs will still be available, or not?

[Hicks_09 10]

You can't put Steam, Origin\UPlay and GFWL in the same bag.

They are all drm clients. Having different owners doesn't change that.

[Maxzy 12]

You grant to Valve the following rights, which Valve may exercise or not in its sole discretion:

a. You grant to Valve a worldwide, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, assignable right and license to (a) use, copy, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media, (b) identify You as the source of the Contribution, and © sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law.

So in other words if, say Wolle, uploaded CWR2 to steamworks, Gabe can just take it, rip it apart, make his own mod RWC3 on it's basis, and start to distribute it, and not even mention Wolle anywhere?

[babylonjoke 22]

Agreed. While I think that Gabe is a nice guy and Steam is nice company that actually cares about their customers (in general) I neither like this part of the Steam Workshop Contribution Agreement:

I'll repeat myself, but: I hope that this is considered as constructive criticism instead of anti-Steam spam.

That's why I think that you will never seen anymore total conversions for Arma, you will see just small modification such as retextures, maybe maps or some sound replacments.

No one want to give their work of years, where they spended health, time , money etc to a big company that own the rights on your work once uploaded to their website.

That's crap.

BIS can do whatever they want, I'm just saying watch out because it's a minefield. Most of the customers helped improving the game,catching and finding solution to the bugs , giving ideas and immproving the BIS games for free. Now BIS is turning them their back.

Give at least a tutelation to the customers, thats what I mean.

I accept to be owned by BIS, but not by STEAM.

For steam you are just one of the bilions of modders on the earth, because they own em all.

For BIS you should be like GOLD.

So in other words if, say Wolle, uploaded CWR2 to steamworks, Gabe can just take it, rip it apart, make his own mod RWC3 on it's basis, and start to distribute it, and not even mention Wolle anywhere?

Yes, nothing and no one could stop that.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Babylonjoke

[Dwarden 1125]

i suggest some of you to search some of my latest posts ... before posting anything more ...

[Janxy 10]

So in other words if, say Wolle, uploaded CWR2 to steamworks, Gabe can just take it, rip it apart, make his own mod RWC3 on it's basis, and start to distribute it, and not even mention Wolle anywhere?

No, you misunderstand. It clearly says " identify You as the source of the Contribution". It's no different from a standard GPL really.

[Dwarden 1125]

@babylonjoke ... not single total conversion or major mod of A2/OA modifies the game binary ... thus whole your post is invalid

[Maxzy 12]

Next to this; platform independent dedicated severs will still be available, or not?

Nobody knows. All we got so far is that devs will try address this issues as best as they can.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

No, you misunderstand. It clearly says " identify You as the source of the Contribution". It's no different from a standard GPL really.

No, it clearly says "following rights, which Valve may exercise or not in its sole discretion"

[Ezcoo 47]

Well, Dwarden had a good point... The risk of modders work being "stolen" by Steam is relatively low, because the addons won't work without the game itself, they're built on the game so Steam could do nothing with the mods without the approval of BIS :)

[Janxy 10]

No, it clearly says "following rights, which Valve may exercise or not in its sole discretion"

Which means that the creator WILL be identified if Valve executes the right to distribute etc. The license you grant Valve is more or less the same as a GPL, which = distribution ( on any media ) and derivative creation as long as creators and contributors are credited.

[CHB68 10]

Nobody knows. All we got so far is that devs will try address this issues as best as they can.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

Well, Dwarden is reading.... I prefer simple answers on simple questions.

[celery 8]

Myke;2300358']Did you ever read the EULA of one of your boxed games? You never "own" the game. You own a box and a DVD and (hopefully) a manual. For the software on it' date=' the developer grants you a non-exclusive right to use it, but you don't "own" it. If you would own it, you could do with it whatever you want like i.e. reverse engineering it. Now guess what, you're not allowed to do that because you don't own it.[/quote']

Here is a 101 on the practical differences of ownership as it's sometimes understood in the digital vs. physical context, in case you might have missed them:

Digital distribution

• Binds itself into a corporate account that wants you to be online
  
• You can't resell or give away anything you "buy"
  
• You can use "your" game only because the distributor hasn't yet decided otherwise
  
• The distributor is fully within its rights to disable your account or "your" games at its discretion
  
• The consumer rights (or rather the waiving thereof) are written solely by and for the benefit of the digital distributor
  
• All of the above is true simply because the distributor has the means to enforce it
  

Physical non-bound copy

• You can install the game onto any compatible system as long as the media (or its backups) doesn't get damaged
  
• It normally doesn't matter whether you're online or offline when you install and/or start the game
  
• You can resell or give away your copy to anyone you please
  
• The normal laws of your country apply to your game
  
• All of the above is true simply because extrajudicial corporate enforcement of rules better suited for their profit is impossible on this medium
  

From these differences we can deduce that yes, you own the physical media and the license within which is transferable whereas the digital download's license is not really yours and is nontransferable because the distributor likes it better that way instead of respecting your consumer rights. And let's not forget that according to European laws, the former case should be true for all copies, not just physical, so Steam's policy is illegal.

How you got the idea that ownership should mean ownership of the intellectual property contained within is beyond me, all I can think of is that it's easier to use as a straw man argument and avoid dealing with the real issue when someone brings it up. Because we've been through this before on the same forum, probably even the same thread before the recent news.

[dmarkwick 261]

Hmm... well Steam release is OK... but Steam only? Is that the case?

I mean, some of us will be dragged kicking & screaming into the Steam marketplace.... but I didn't see anything wrong with the standard BIS release model. FADE is a great DRM, best I ever saw.

[W0lle 1052]

Steam pop-up news/ads can be disabled in the options. ;)

Soo, let's see:

x can be disabled in the options

y can be disabled in the options

z can be disabled in the options

Now that's very nice allowing me that.

Just... Right now I don't have to disable ads, I don't have to switch to offline mode, I don't have to disable auto-updates and whatnot. Why should I be so stupid using Steam now and spend 30 mins with disabling a bunch of options each time I have to (re)install Steam? Yet another argument against Steam client.

Can I also disable logging how long I played Arma3 and when? Somehow I doubt it.

Hmm... well Steam release is OK... but Steam only? Is that the case?

That's the case, yes.

Even if you obtain a physical disc, Steam client is required to play Arma3.

[dunedain 48]

Its annoying and its annoying that BIS is going this way knowing that this is against the community poll they asked us to answer. I thought BIS was the only game developer that is listening to fans and normal customers, i guess now there is no such game developer anymore.

They probably sold way more ArmaII copies on the Steamstore than they ever did through every other digital or retail shops combined. Even though that poll tended to be hostile regarding Steamworks, it's only a couple hundreds votes against it and cannot be representative of the community as a whole as you'll find way more steamsceptic fellas around here than anywhere else. You're totally overreacting, it's becoming ridiculous...

Edited February 22, 2013 by dunedain

[esham 1]

I wonder if soon we will need a microchip just to play ARMA3. Seems like that's where we are headed.