Dragon Rising has been released

[vilas 477]

Something to remember is that with the latest patch they now use supressive fire FAR FAR more often and FAR more effectively. They'll know your last known whereabouts and will suppress the area. You may just be unfortunate enough to get hit by one of the random rounds being fired in the general area.

in OFP 1 AI was more disorientated me thinks

but i think that in many cases AI in Arma1/2 knows too much (when you sneak and you are noticed)

but it caused not by AI, but by wrong LODs in bushes

[ricoadf 0]

but it caused not by AI, but by wrong LODs in bushes

99.9% of the time when AI shoots u when they shouldt be (eg through a wall they shouldnt see u through) is because of this reason. The lods in A2 quite often are terribly done (the headless resistance troops show it very well). I wish BIS would fix the lods, itd solve soo many issues :(

[[frl]myke 14]

And here ir is, another prove that this game was purely developed for consoles and only ported to PC just squeeze a few more bucks out of it. They didn't spend a dime on optimizing it for PC.

Just sum it up and you'll see it for yourself.

Dispersion shield: as pointed out, for console controllers it is harder to line up a clear target, much harder than with a mouse as [RIP] Luhgnut stated. No problems so far with it. A game has to work on the platform and it's related controllers and sometimes it needs this stuff to compensate.

But why is it still in the PC Version? On PC, people have much more accurate controllers available (mouse) so a dispersion shield is more of a immersion killer than anything else. Not a dime spent for optimizing here.

AI: Also here, i understand that on consoles, the CPU performance is limited compared to a todays PC, so workarounds have to be found. For OFPDR this was the "not so smart" basic AI each units has and the higher level AI routines in a external module, the echelon. Got no problem with it so far for consoles. But why wasn't the superior echelon AI routines not activated for each single unit by default on PC version? Well, it would have benn needed to be doen, which costs money.

So why didn't they optimized it for PC? Because they knew it's not worth the effort.

They knew pretty well, if they release a game named "Operation Flashpoint" it will be compared with the original and has to compete with ArmA 2. No matter if they state "it's not a sequel" yadayadayada. It has the name so it gets compared. Thats what people do. If they called it "Call of duty" it would have been compared with other COD titles, if they called it "Age of Empires: Dragon Rising" it would have been compared with the Age of Empires series.

So, i doubt that the guys at CM are dumb and blind. They knew where theyr game stands compared to OFP:CWC and ArmA 2. They knew pretty well it can't compete in this league. And they knew that people will compare it to those games i've stated.

So why investing money into a product where they already know previously it will fail? Just do a simple port, as cheap as possible and this way they can make a few extra bucks from those desperate souls who are blinded by the title "Operation Flashpoint". Once it's sold no need to care any longer. Maybe one or two patches just for saying "look, we do care" but honestly, remember what the first patch included? Something groundbreaking? Ah yes, i forgot: "Version number is now shown on start screen". Indeed hard to keep track after one patch.

So face it. CM just fooled the PC comm, milked them as good as it gets and then thrown away.

Need more proves?

Editor for PC and not for consoles: sales argument, hoping PC players would choose OFP:DR instead ArmA 2.

Mission importing on PC but not for consoles? Same as above.

On console there is no competitor in the nearly the same league (although even on PC OFP:DR can't get even near of ArmA 2's league) so they can prevent that there could possibly be any free content.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

I guess if people have fun with it, they don't care. From my point of view both games shouldn't have to be compared in the first place by magazines and developers. I remember when I saw the first videos of Dragon Rising. It was a wow-effect which increased my expectations. However I lost faith in Dragon Rising long before the release. No information provided by Codemasters via pictures, previews etc. could convice me at least to try the demo. Was it personal dislike? Premonitions? I don't know. I don't care.

However it's interesting how everything developes and nobody here can deny that Dragon Rising had some influences to our community. Just have a look at the Kiska and the PLA mods. I know they were in production long before the release but having Dragon Rising failed makes those mods somehow unique among other mods. I'm really interested in seeing future opinions from owners of both games if there'll be an ArmA II Dragon Rising campaign comparison with the original Dragon Rising campaign.

[templargfx 10]

it really annoys me when people make such huge glaring leaps of assumptions and state them as fact.

If you ever played DR with my ultimate AI mod and the Hardcore DS addon, you would see that the dispersion shield could very well be added to reduce difficulty (regardless of platform), playing with the afformentioned add-ons and the game is well nigh impossible to beat. much harder than anything I've experienced in ARMA. Its not due to the ai "cheating" but due to the fact that they are as good (regular ai) a shot as you are, and every bullet counts.

I wish people would stop making such huge assumptions "CM did this for that reason" unless you have proof, you should state it as being your opinion only

[wiggum2 31]

ArmA2 is something like the holy grail for many here if it comes to military games and that is ok. Other who dont like the style and the gameplay of it maybe like DR more.

I will no longer play ArmA2 in SP because i dont like how the AI acts most of the time...ah it is just no fun for me.

But if you look at the MP sure nothing can beat ArmA2 in the military shooter category on the PC, maybe Bad Company 2 will...

If you look at the mods and addons nothing comes close to ArmA2 and maybe never will.

Thats because i understand why some think ArmA2 is the best military game (not just military shooter).

For me it is not ArmA2 and not DR, in my opinion the best military game is CMSF.

[[frl]myke 14]

I wish people would stop making such huge assumptions "CM did this for that reason" unless you have proof, you should state it as being your opinion only

Then please, would you please be so kind to explain why gamedesign decisions has been made the way they are made? I know it's not "hard proven fact" simply because CM would never agree to it. It's just a matter of logical thinking.

OFP:DR has to compete with OFP:CWC and ArmA 2 because of 2 simple facts:

It has the name "Operation Flashpoint". So it will be compared with "Cold War Crisis". No matter what CM's PR departement states.

BIS has made CWC and they also made ArmA 2. Taking the above into consideration, it is more than natural that OFP:DR has to compete with ArmA 2.

And as i said once and i'll repeat it here once again: OFP:DR might be an acceptable shooter and meaybe even more for those who like this kind of game. Fair enough. But it is a more than lousy "Operation Flashpoint" and not worth to wear that name. Not compared to ArmA/ArmA 2 but to the original OFP.

[instagoat 133]

it really annoys me when people make such huge glaring leaps of assumptions and state them as fact.

If you ever played DR with my ultimate AI mod and the Hardcore DS addon, you would see that the dispersion shield could very well be added to reduce difficulty (regardless of platform), playing with the afformentioned add-ons and the game is well nigh impossible to beat. much harder than anything I've experienced in ARMA. Its not due to the ai "cheating" but due to the fact that they are as good (regular ai) a shot as you are, and every bullet counts.

I wish people would stop making such huge assumptions "CM did this for that reason" unless you have proof, you should state it as being your opinion only

It is there to reduce difficulty. And it´s not the best solution, because it makes the hitting/missing of the AI feel completely random. You can stand for minutes in the open, getting shot at and maybe take one or two glancing hits (which will do nothing except make the screen blur and then go monochrome), and other times somebody fires a single shot and you´re gone.

The AI in Arma 2 isn´t so difficult because it´s, I would say, more realistic. Firefights in real life last very long, with a lot of ammo expended per kill, however, most of that fire is directed against covered targets. In DR, even if you´re in the open and a clear target, you´re still going to be missed. If you put yourself behind cover, the benefits appear marginal, especially because you can´t properly exploit the cover (no incremental lean, no actual sense of having a body).

The AI in OFP:CWC is much more deadly than the AI of Arma and Arma2, partially because of the lack of cover on the maps, partially because of their inherent shooting skills.

[Bulldogs 10]

I think everyone would agree that naming it "Operation Flashpoint" was a mistake.

Now back to the AI. The one thing I don't like about the DR AI which Templar mentioned someone else at some other time, about how the AI can see clearing through smoke and bushes and such, but to counteract and make the smoke somewhat useful, instead of having their site blocked, instead it increases the dispersion shield.

I prefer Arma's way of handling it, but as mentioned it does have downsides. The LOD problem being a big one, an I'm not talking about the LOD drop off at a range, I'm talking about how the AI see's bushes and such (at least how they saw them in Arma 1)

In Arma 1 they would see bushes as a bunch of fractal polygons (basically the alpha on the bushes), problem being that the bushes weren't too complex and the polygons were transparent so it only slightly broke up the players body by bush. A mod was released which was very effective which changed it so that the AI saw bushes as complex shards, which made it very hard for the AI to see you through a bush.

I thought it was a good system with that setup, but obviously it adds more calculations and complexities. I'm not sure what system is used in Arma 2, but it works pretty well with certain things like when you place yourself in a bush and have the enemy run over you, they'll virtually step on you without noticing you, but if you make any sound at all then they'll supress your position. Fortunately the level of sound has been toned down so they can't pin point your position with super human hearing, but I still think it needs more tweaks.

It's these little details that are left out of DR that you could assume were due to the lack of capability of a console, and other things like the dispersion shield you could assume were put in to make it easier for all players, not just console (actually, no assumption needed on that last part, Sion himself mentioned that it was made easier for players because sim's are too hard)

EDIT : Was going to fix the mistakes but realised how lazy I am right now.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Bulldogs

[templargfx 10]

the dispersion radius is only maxed out for smoke, as far as I can tell, bushes and grass has absolutely no effect on the AI in DR. I asked the Dev's for clarification, but have thus far gotten no response back. What makes no sense to me is that the AI uses raycasting for its vision, which means it should be able to take grass and bushes into account with very little increase in resource loading. Perhaps they were pushing the very limits of consoles?

[[frl]myke 14]

Perhaps they were pushing the very limits of consoles?

Really sorry, please accept my apologies. I thought we speak of a PC game.

[Mr.Wolf 10]

...as far as I can tell, bushes and grass has absolutely no effect on the AI in DR...

I'm not sure about bushes. For example in the beggining of that "monastery mission", there are some APC's, or whatever, and they clearly can't see you through bushes. But if you leave "bushcover" they start to shoot on you immediately.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I really disagree about the AI in Arma2 cheating or seeing you when they shouldn't like through walls and such. Least I haven't seen it.

Yesterday I loaded up a domination map on the [RIP] server and waiting for everybody to log in. I started doing a side mission. It was me against probably 15 foot soldiers, 1 T-72, 2 BTR's. I took out a bunch of foot soldiers and kept diving down over the crest of the hill for cover. I could hear the BTR's driving about, shutting their engines off, looking for me. While over the hill I looked to the top and could literally see an AI soldier at the top of the hill with Binocs scanning the treeline looking. Once he spotted me, he hit the dirt, I repositioned quickly ( I knew what was coming) down through the woods came 8 troops working the trees where I used to be. I was off on the side laying down watching them. Without moving, I let them pass. I then continued to my objective. They never once saw me, but they had at least an idea of where I used to be and you could see them in a search pattern.

----

I think many people think the AI cheats because they are good. But if I had not noticed that guy on the hill looking for me in binocs, I wouldn't have known those troops would be coming and they would have run right up on me. To me, it would look like they knew my position all along.

BTW. I finished the side mission solo.

My kills: 18 foot troops, 1-T72 (he hit one of my mines), 2 BTR's, and one Truck full of troops coming to reinforce. (Lucky SMAW shot) And saved a bunch of hostages.

I was killed twice. This is on Veteran difficulty. It took about an hour to do that mission.

Not a pat on the back, it's a reflection that you can win in A2 but you have to take it REALLY slow, pick your advance, and think.

And here's where DR is very different..... In Arma2 you may lay perfectly still for 2-3 min (or more) to not give up your position. Since I'm an old fart, it's not too hard to lay still for 2-3 min. anyway. Least my wife can attest to that.

Dragon Rising consolers....... I don't see these guys laying still for 30 seconds. That's why DR feels "run and gun" compared to A2. When I was messing with DR when it first came out, I didn't play much Arma2 for two days cause I was just playing with DR's editor..... After two days of Dragon Rising, I was programmed to the fact, I was nearly invincible in DR. I got into an Arma2 warfare server. And because my brain was programmed to "play like DR". I didn't last 10 seconds against a A2 AI. If you take someone from DR and drop them into A2.... they would get torn to shreds. In DR, you can take on three squads without a scratch (if you do the diagonal sidestep). In A2? forget it.

Edited January 13, 2010 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[bascule42 10]

Also A2 ai has a nasty, (good) habit of finding almost perfect spots to go prone and fire. For example. When I started playing, (it had been a few years since playing CWC and was quite rusty), I was getting hammered. Constantly. After a month or so, I started to get in to the swing of observing the area before running in. I was seeing the enemy in prone positions firing through a gap between trees that were 25m or so apart going in a straight line away from my position. Effectively picking a 5 degree firing arc that from my viewpoint was very difficult to spot. Add a bush or 2 near the apex of that 5 degree firing arc and you have a very tricky shot indeed.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Bascule42
arcs and angles mixed...noah never had this problem

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I play with fxparticles mod turned on, that kicks up little dust puffs when a bullet hits the dirt. I'll have some AI firing at me with a machine gun and I'm pinned down behind a tree. I start peeking out looking for him and I can see the dust puffs and then see him down in the most perfect firing cover. Then I go "duh, you're being suppressed" and I'll look to the flank and sure enough, see a couple AI dart between trees. Just long enough to get a glimpse but not a shot off. Then you see them again and they are MUCH closer and working the trees to you. "Time to boogie outta here, like pronto."

If the same happened in DR, and I saw a couple guys coming through the trees, I would go make a sandwich, watch some TV, make a few phone calls, then come back and calmly shoot them in the face.

Edited January 13, 2010 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

I really disagree about the AI in Arma2 cheating or seeing you when they shouldn't like through walls and such. Least I haven't seen it.

Well, one of team members created GLT Dynamic AI, a module for ArmA II that increases the reaction skills of the AI. During his tests he used marker to show the AI behaviour, current position and some other attributes. After he fired a shot, the AI knew where he was, instantly entering combat mode. So he teleported himself for testing issues away a few kilometres to a location where the AI should have never found him. However the AI tried to get to his new position. At least sometimes there's something strange going on in the background of the AI. But to be fair, that was several months ago during the 1.04 beta's. It may be totally different right now. I guess I'll do some tests with it.

As for Dragon Rising I'd like to have an official statement by Codemasters why the game wasn't released as promised. Yeah, I'm naive :rolleyes: Maybe they have had some real reasons :D

[4 IN 1 0]

I think everyone would agree that naming it "Operation Flashpoint" was a mistake.

Now back to the AI. The one thing I don't like about the DR AI which Templar mentioned someone else at some other time, about how the AI can see clearing through smoke and bushes and such, but to counteract and make the smoke somewhat useful, instead of having their site blocked, instead it increases the dispersion shield.

I prefer Arma's way of handling it, but as mentioned it does have downsides. The LOD problem being a big one, an I'm not talking about the LOD drop off at a range, I'm talking about how the AI see's bushes and such (at least how they saw them in Arma 1)

In Arma 1 they would see bushes as a bunch of fractal polygons (basically the alpha on the bushes), problem being that the bushes weren't too complex and the polygons were transparent so it only slightly broke up the players body by bush. A mod was released which was very effective which changed it so that the AI saw bushes as complex shards, which made it very hard for the AI to see you through a bush.

I thought it was a good system with that setup, but obviously it adds more calculations and complexities. I'm not sure what system is used in Arma 2, but it works pretty well with certain things like when you place yourself in a bush and have the enemy run over you, they'll virtually step on you without noticing you, but if you make any sound at all then they'll supress your position. Fortunately the level of sound has been toned down so they can't pin point your position with super human hearing, but I still think it needs more tweaks.

It's these little details that are left out of DR that you could assume were due to the lack of capability of a console, and other things like the dispersion shield you could assume were put in to make it easier for all players, not just console (actually, no assumption needed on that last part, Sion himself mentioned that it was made easier for players because sim's are too hard)

EDIT : Was going to fix the mistakes but realised how lazy I am right now.

AFAIK what the mod does basicly is to replacing the old, much smaller sphere type LOD into square blocks of LODs on the model, making the cover area much larger then the before, and AFAIK this might acturally improve performance as square are acturally much more easy to render then sphere

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

As for Dragon Rising I'd like to have an official statement by Codemasters why the game wasn't released as promised. Yeah, I'm naive :rolleyes: Maybe they have had some real reasons :D

Cause Lenton follows Molyneux's school of business/hype. Both are related in the business aspect. Molyneux has a long history and reputation of over hyping games and stating things are in the game, that are then absent in the release. It worked for Molyneux and he basically hyped his way to a big position at Microsoft, so Lenton copies him. Simple as that.

[Deadfast 43]

...During his tests he used marker to show the AI behaviour, current position and some other attributes. After he fired a shot, the AI knew where he was, instantly entering combat mode. So he teleported himself for testing issues away a few kilometres to a location where the AI should have never found him. However the AI tried to get to his new position. At least sometimes there's something strange going on in the background of the AI. But to be fair, that was several months ago during the 1.04 beta's. It may be totally different right now. I guess I'll do some tests with it.

Funny, I've seen a video of somebody replicating the same exact situation.

He fired off a shot, teleported away and watched the AI assault his old position.

It's been a while since I seen it, I think it was around version 1.02. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[myshaak 0]

Funny, I've seen a video of somebody replicating the same exact situation.

He fired off a shot, teleported away and watched the AI assault his old position.

It's been a while since I seen it, I think it was around version 1.02. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Exactly. And I believe this is the video you meant:

Y6mI410K_ZU

[Jackson006 10]

Luhgnut that’s why a lot of people don’t like the game not enough patience!

As far as the AI seeing through smoke, I don’t think so the biggest mistake people make popping smoke after being compromised is staying within or directly behind the smoke, it’s like a big neon sign saying I am here please shoot away.

Not being the sharpest knife in the draw could someone explain the dispersion shield and has it got anything to do with that you tube clip, showing the soldier on one side of the little bird with the other soldier on the other side shooting through the chopper.

2/4

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Luhgnut that’s why a lot of people don’t like the game not enough patience!

As far as the AI seeing through smoke, I don’t think so the biggest mistake people make popping smoke after being compromised is staying within or directly behind the smoke, it’s like a big neon sign saying I am here please shoot away.

Not being the sharpest knife in the draw could someone explain the dispersion shield and has it got anything to do with that you tube clip, showing the soldier on one side of the little bird with the other soldier on the other side shooting through the chopper.

2/4

you should see my vid where I shoot the pilot through the door, then suddenly the passenger appears in the pilot's seat (they magically swapped seats in a flash). I start shooting that guy and he won't die. I then move to the front and shoot him through the plexi, and he dies. 1 foot in front of him shooting him dead in the face, and all the blood flys, but he just sits there.

There's so many problems it's pathetic. I'm not even talking about the advanced functions of AI etc..., I find silliness in models, collision detection, physics, graphics, just the basics. Took my first encounter with the enemy (two guys popping up behind some rocks)to see their lack of predication and accuracy by side stepping and them not following me with their guns. I'm going immediatly "this is junk". Then it was just one glaring lack of quality after another. For the next 5 hours until the end, I'm laughing (nearly crying) and shaking my head.

Edited January 13, 2010 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[Tonci87 163]

You should test the Arma 2AI with troopmon. You are able to see what the AI can see. You will notice that they know your last position when you teleport away, and they will advance to that position

[Jackson006 10]

Luhgnut well that is why I haven’t purchased the game, when I first watched the E3 presentation by Uncle Clive I thought yes this could be a great game. As the months went by and more question were being asked with very few answers, it dawned upon me that what was being said and shown may not come to fruition. Thanks to people like you and others, I haven’t waisted my money.:)

Tonci87 yep I saw that vid that Myshaak posted on here I think that clears everything up about cheating AI that they don’t.

2/4

[Bulldogs 10]

The dispersion shield basically prevents the bullets from hitting you. The longer you fight the AI, the smaller the shield gets. Once the shield hits it's lowest point then the bullets can hit you a lot easier. At least that's my take on it.

The chopper thing is a collision detection alpha problem I believe.