co30 DominationA2! One Team

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Oh man, I'm truly sorry. Didn't mean any disrespect or anything, put the smileys in there to illustrate a humorous remark, and I misread you a little as well.

If you can solve side missions using arty then I think that is a problem. Xeno removed this exploit possibility in Dom1, by calling it "not solved" (and hence no reward) if something without a side (such as scripted createVehicle "someartyshell") killed him, or an "item to blow up" remained a "hard target" (indestructible) until you had some guys near it.

Maybe it is a bug/oversight? I fully support not being able to complete side missions like that, because it ruins the fun for those who have planned and executed a good attack on side - not for the reward but for the more organized teamplay. Not sure if adding a building would help, people would just bomb/arty the shit out of it anyway to get some "cool explosions" :)

Earlier the rewards was reversed; "crap" for side and good for main. Means you need to work a lot more to get the awesome rewards, and be more afraid for them. Nobody "interfered" at the side missions unless they had desire to actually play instead of just get a reward.

[Keshman 10]

CarlGustaffa

Warrant Officer

This time you understood me and my idea 100% :D:ok: always people do not understand 100% my and my idea! because my English bad :o Let's wait for new solutions and ideas from the author of this excellent mission :)

[HyperU2 11]

Oh man, I'm truly sorry. Didn't mean any disrespect or anything, put the smileys in there to illustrate a humorous remark, and I misread you a little as well.

If you can solve side missions using arty then I think that is a problem. Xeno removed this exploit possibility in Dom1, by calling it "not solved" (and hence no reward) if something without a side (such as scripted createVehicle "someartyshell") killed him, or an "item to blow up" remained a "hard target" (indestructible) until you had some guys near it.

Maybe it is a bug/oversight? I fully support not being able to complete side missions like that, because it ruins the fun for those who have planned and executed a good attack on side - not for the reward but for the more organized teamplay. Not sure if adding a building would help, people would just bomb/arty the shit out of it anyway to get some "cool explosions" :)

Earlier the rewards was reversed; "crap" for side and good for main. Means you need to work a lot more to get the awesome rewards, and be more afraid for them. Nobody "interfered" at the side missions unless they had desire to actually play instead of just get a reward.

I think when you're starting the server, it's best to just limit Arty to 500m. At least that way you have to be in the sidemission AO.

[oktane 0]

If you can solve side missions using arty then I think that is a problem. Xeno removed this exploit possibility in Dom1, by calling it "not solved" (and hence no reward) if something without a side (such as scripted createVehicle "someartyshell") killed him, or an "item to blow up" remained a "hard target" (indestructible) until you had some guys near it.

Maybe it is a bug/oversight? I fully support not being able to complete side missions like that, because it ruins the fun for those who have planned and executed a good attack on side - not for the reward but for the more organized teamplay. Not sure if adding a building would help, people would just bomb/arty the shit out of it anyway to get some "cool explosions" :)

Yep, all mission targets which employ things like a building, or vehicle that must be destroyed use XCheckSMHardTarget/XCheckMTHardTarget.. which will not allow an object to take damage until a person has been very close (20m) to the target object. After a person has been within 20m, the damage handler is removed and anything can destroy it. The XCheckSMHardTarget variant is an FSM now.

Afaik, 'men' do not use this system. Men actually use XKilledSMTargetNormal it appears. (for side mission) And no check is done for that distance thing. You could, I suppose, make a similar type of function for the man, but it's distance would have to probably be over 1000m so a sniper could get him.

[rant to players who want things 'easy' & 'right now', not directed you guys]

People who complain about this feature are incredibly impatient, and perhaps they haven't yet experienced their effort at team play ruined by rambo pubbers with high powered attack aircraft, spamming the town with munitions...

Or they don't care about working with others at all! What is the point exactly? If they want to do that kind of stuff, they could put down some guys in the editor and strafe them with an A10 or drop fire on them. You win sir! (but nobody got to see your spectacular show I guess) Impatience and ArmA don't go well together, I don't think..

In the game development industry, a role exists called 'game designer', and they make rules to make the game worth playing, the core 'goal' of the game and how you win/lose, etc. In Arma particularly, there are usually very 'loose' rules since it's such an open game, but they are required nonetheless. They exist to make create a believable and achievable challenge, to balance out goal difficulty, and thereby fun game and a desire to win, etc. One of the things that makes Domination so successful is the authors skill as a game designer, and his way of leaving things very open while still offering a challenge to those that want to use all of the 'help' they can. (teleporting, respawn, overpowered air assets, etc) And other players, can choose not to use some or all of those things for a realistic game.

Sorry for the rant, people sometimes complain about such things and they don't think though the effect on the core gameplay if these balancing decisions didn't exist. Domination would have probably died years ago if you didn't have to enter the town and fight to win! :D

[/rant]

[HyperU2 11]

Personally I hate the folks that bitch about the use of air power. If you want to play an infantry only version you better host your own game. ARMA is a CAX, like it or leave it.

[galzohar 31]

Why do the weapon crates only have 1 of each weapon and very little ammo? In certain situations it can get really annoying, especially when you want to re-arm yourself at an ammo box rather than being forced to hit "respawn" so that you get your saved loadout back, and also if you forget to save your loadout or just want to use a different loadout once/twice while keeping your old loadout saved.

Also, for the ranked version, it would've been nice if the level of enemies would be more appropriate, as in less geared enemies at the first towns and better equipped ones later on.

Edited May 8, 2010 by galzohar

[xeno 230]

Bugfix Release 2.06

Changelog:

• Changed, dropping artillery on sidemission targets like officers renders a sidemission as not resolved
  
• Fixed exploit, the ammobox at the base spawn point could be loaded too, no max ammoboxes check in this case
  
• Changed, arty available time for enemy AI artillery observers can now be changed as a parameter in the server lobby, default 240 seconds
  
• Fixed, briefing, you don't have to deploy a MHQ to drop or load an ammo crate
  
• Changed, convoy sidemissions do end after one hour now if something went wrong (convoy units hiding somewhere, whatever)
  
• Fixed exploit, it is possible to place a satchel while playing the halo freefall animation. Midair placed satchels do allways explode on the ground.
  

Download:

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/domination/files

Enjoy!

And have fun...

Xeno

[Keshman 10]

Changed, dropping artillery on sidemission targets like officers renders a sidemission as not resolved

I am happy that you've been paying attention to our message and discussion and changed the mission! Thank you for this change!

[oktane 0]

Personally I hate the folks that bitch about the use of air power. If you want to play an infantry only version you better host your own game. ARMA is a CAX, like it or leave it.

Indeed, when coordinating with ground forces they are truly spectacular and helpful. Infantry only is absolutely not what I am saying, we use all kinds of assets. It isn't bad at all with dedicated pilots or regulars that know what they are doing and respect what the ground people wish to get from the game. But I was specifically referring to the mass of people that come and go server to server, get in an attack aircraft and rambo around, especially when there are not enough ground units in the town to effectively take the camps. And our ACE players seem to like when they encounter a light tank or two on the ground, instead of them all smoking within 5 minutes of the town spawning..(armor is on light) the point is simply to emphasize teamwork, too often it's an anti-social dude in the aircraft that doesn't care to work with anyone else or cease operations when they aren't needed.

I'm sure if you were inclined, that you could make an all-pilot version of Domination with much more armor, no completion restrictions, I bet it would be pretty popular too. I think Xeno made a similar mission called AirCav with multiple targets. But on ours, we try to emphasize on ground teamwork, where it's much more likely to happen. The aircraft are still there, but the admins control them when they aren't suitable for use.

Edit: I'm starting to regret saying anything and this debate probably does not belong here. It's up to the mission maker or server, lets leave it at that. Anyone that has initiative can edit it to suit their needs, very easily.

Edited May 9, 2010 by oktane

[galzohar 31]

The problem is if a mission has aircraft but is not balanced for aircraft then you will always have a mess and/or have to use admin power to force balance on the mission :(

[xeno 230]

The problem is if a mission has aircraft but is not balanced for aircraft then you will always have a mess and/or have to use admin power to force balance on the mission :(

Feel free to change the mission to your needs, you can do whatever you want, even change it and release it without even mention me.

But please, do me one favour... don't tell me what's wrong or right.

I've made the most played MP missions for ArmA 1 and ArmA 2. I know what players want or not.

Xeno

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Why do the weapon crates only have 1 of each weapon and very little ammo? In certain situations it can get really annoying, especially when you want to re-arm yourself at an ammo box rather than being forced to hit "respawn" so that you get your saved loadout back, and also if you forget to save your loadout or just want to use a different loadout once/twice while keeping your old loadout saved.

Didn't really take you as a "convenience player". Respawn for ammo, sounds horrible. Put your rifle on back and grab some enemy weapon. You have a choice. I love the idea of having to be conservative, and not carry a ton of ammo. Let the heavy hitters (SAW, M240, support vehicles, air and armor support) do the most of the shooting.

Also, for the ranked version, it would've been nice if the level of enemies would be more appropriate, as in less geared enemies at the first towns and better equipped ones later on.

I agree, and I had an idea once, using Domination as base code, but wasn't really up to the challenge. Went something like:

* AI support allowed until 4 players on server, and only squad leaders can recruit. No AI for you? Rejoin.

* BIS style miniature objectives available at base, to keep early and lone joiners busy with realistically sized "missions". No real awards, maybe some statics for the engineers.

* Missions only available at the base, and only to the platoon leader (more below). Rejoin and change class if need be. For score whores, the score stays (afaik). Shouldn't be an issue to rejoin. Being enroute is part of the fun for me.

* Officers get High Command ability, and ability to respawn MH6 choppers lost in the field.

* A new method of generating the main targets. The strategical plan would be to help CDF establish a MRS from a randomly placed starting location near the NE/N/NW/W edge of the map, all the way across the map to the sea (for the supplyships) No plane stuff yet.

* Only insurgents and NAPA to be found near your starting location, but they would be better and better equipped the closer you got to the destination. Near the destination would be the big boys, with todays amount of armor etc.

* When new mission generates, you don't get updated map markers until officer has visited the base and actually received the mission. You can copy off his markers, or have it done automatically when you visit the base.

* Any cleared route should be put on the isle defense blacklist, they can't enter. Until recapturing.

* A difficulty determined number of recaps to loose before the mission is actually lost (no hope, we're going home). The camps at all previous targets should stay at all times, and the enemy objective would be to seize them. If they manage to get near all of them, they have a successful recapture, and the objective is considered lost. But a much longer warning (30 minutes?) so we can prepare to defend those camps. Also, no recaptures triggered when less than say 10 players are on the map.

* Side missions forces you to leave this safe zone, and awards should be less. Since enemy is relatively weak at the beginning, HMMWVs might seem to have a purpose.

* Side missions should differ in difficulty, and you should be able to pick what is suited for your forces. Many more side missions with effect. Like kill enemy artillery radar, air radar, artillery base, chopper bases, air bases. The biggest bonus for doing these would be lack of support for the enemy, instead of a vehicle rush.

* No ranking system. You pick a role with a fixed rank. But also class based, meaning limited access to the nice stuff. Did you ever count how many of the AI actually have scopes? Not that many, and if you exclude the russians, hardly anybody.

* Realistic air lifting capabilities. I believe the MHQ would be too heavy, basically leaving only HMMWVs and M119s. With the new anti air radar system, people who get shot down from enemy planes only have themselves to blame for not getting vehicle into safety. Find intelligence, and you might even get a prewarning prior to launch.

* Weapons only in the base, with no "save gear layout" (could be an exploit here), but you have something to choose from (depending on class). Officers shouldn't run about with SMAWs, especially not in ACE with so many other launcher options. Ammo crates in the field should be that, just ammo. But maybe the air dropped crate should be a distinct crate also with some weapons? Maybe global, since everyone knows it's coming :)

* When people get too far from the main base, it may become a hazzle to get back for updated mission maps. By now they should possess some vehicles and try some recon on they own, to find the next target. Wouldn't be too hard given the limited size of Chernarus, since it would be relatively close to the MSR.

* Do the airbase side mission assault, but will only be available when enough people on the server, and if you have found the intel revealing its location. As reward, you get this base as your own airbase, and main target plane awards will spawn here.

* Small pros and cons with every class. No class should be allowed to be a "superclass", regardless of initial rank. Only one team to be allowed to deal with heavy weapons such as SMAW, MG, and CSWs. How they choose to provide that heavy weapons support would be up to them. Similar with sniper team, only one. This is an extremely unsuitable mission for typical "sniper work", yet there are way too many "sniping". Any grunt riflemen might get the special 5.56 ammo, but DMRs is a big no no that renders a good sniper out of a job :) So the sniper teams perks are their weapons, but they might have to respawn only in base (being so "special").

* A redundancy plan for "every situation". So what if not everyone can get Stingers? Have trucks in the base with some spare ones. The point isn't to make anything impossible without the right personell, only less convenient. Spend a little extra time on logistics if the manpower is down, and you should be fine.

* If you haven't done the airbase mission, enemy will have frequent air support during the final stages of the battle. If you haven't done the anti air radar mission, they will be constantly updated about our air movements.

The basic idea was to create a more mission oriented game instead of the shoot'em'up we have now. And still be able to run "persistent servers". The risk of getting killed would be reduced in "safe" areas, so the penalty for not being more careful should be higher. Getting killed should be something to be afraid of, but not going way hardcore either (2 min vs 20min+). Since the advancement is more done in a direction, I think the likelihood of using transport trucks and light armored vehicles would increase.

I know some don't like the idea of perks and drawbacks, that everyone should be able to do anything. But that type of gameplay doesn't create "good" games on most public servers.

Well, that was the idea anyway...

Bugfix Release 2.06

[*]Fixed exploit, it is possible to place a satchel while playing the halo freefall animation. Midair placed satchels do allways explode on the ground.

Lol, wtf? :D

Edited May 9, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[oktane 0]

The problem is if a mission has aircraft but is not balanced for aircraft then you will always have a mess and/or have to use admin power to force balance on the mission :(

Look.. A large burden lies in the players themselves

, to use the freedom that Domi provides them responsibly. And unprofessional players will always be greedy, selfish and ruin it for others. To try and stop them with ever increasing rules enforced by scripts ultimately limits the flexibility of the guys working together, the guys who pay for the server in donations, the quality players. So the solution is not to change the game, just get rid of the players that don't want to team play. Needless to say, some scripts/rules are always needed to create a loose gameplay structure. But this has nothing to do with Domination.

Did you make your own (hopefully dynamically) 'balanced' version of Domination? How would that work, when a player attack chopper takes off, 10 more tanks spawn? I don't especially like mid-game spawns, they feel cheap. It took me a while to even accept Domination's spawning of enemies, but it does it at obvious times because of resource restraints, I'm ok with how it does it. (I come from playing small coop scenarios before revive and all that jazz, opflash days)

I like your idea of ranked enemies, that would be a really cool thing to have. Balancing the game though, it's difficult if the player count and skill varies(most important thing that changes), the AI skill varies, you don't have enough beta testers, they file inaccurate bugs based on assumptions or incorrect correlations, just overall it's a real chore with such a complicated mission.

Then again, I think that almost any plausible problem you encounter in this game vs AI has a solution in which you come out on top, you just have to find it. Therefore, balancing is less important than having good players who can lead others to victory. (and luck) I have experienced many times where there was no way we could survive or succeed, and we ended up doing just that.

Cheers

[HyperU2 11]

Feel free to change the mission to your needs, you can do whatever you want, even change it and release it without even mention me.

But please, do me one favour... don't tell me what's wrong or right.

I've made the most played MP missions for ArmA 1 and ArmA 2. I know what players want or not.

Xeno

:cc:

My OFP career was primarily SP, my ARMA mostly Evo, now in ARMA2 it's mostly Dom and I leave this thread tonight with even more respect for it.

[Tankbuster 1733]

Good post, Carl. Won't quote any of it, there's too much. :)

I've tried to balance the mission too, but I've not had much time to do it. I came from a mildly modified Dom 1.27 for clan use, supporting 6 players, to having to cater for 20-30. It's been quite a hard ride, but I've got a good bunch of blokes helping out.

I have found that even vanilla Domination allows the admin to ramp up the difficulty without to many problems. Add in the base sabs and island patrols and town recaptures and quite quickly, you have plenty for even 30 blokes to do.

We've added some features too, like the red circle being smaller for small towns and introduced an algorithm that spawns comparitvely the same number of enemies based on the red circle size. Chernogorsk is now quite an undertaking, even if it is at the end of one of my routes and there's plenty of airpower available by the time we get there.

Right now, I'm looking into d_limited_weapons. It only affects rifles, but I've extended it's scope so that it controls tube weps too. I'm worried that the engineer is the superclass you mention so engineers and medic cannot carry tubes in my version. Nor can they pilot. I want my engs and medics on the ground available to fix blokes/vehs if required. I don't want them peering through a Javelin sight 1500 meters away, nor so I want them overhead in a fast jet.

[galzohar 31]

But please, do me one favour... don't tell me what's wrong or right.

I've made the most played MP missions for ArmA 1 and ArmA 2. I know what players want or not.

To be honest, I really don't understand that kind of attitude. I wasn't flamy or disrespectful to any of your work and do not deserve these kinds of replies.

What's the point of having weapons restricted in the box if I can just reproduce them by respawning? That is, I can save a certain loadout, drop it all on the ground and respawn several time, creating a very large supply of everything, and if those weapons are really necessary for the mission (specifically AT weapons in "default settings" domination games that have a lot of armor opposition) then the respawn timer is the last thing that would stop that. If ammunition is supposed to be limited, then saving loadout doesn't make much sense. If ammunition is supposed to be unlimited, then the ammo box having limited ammunition and the fact the ammobox gets refilled every X seconds doesn't make much sense.

[oktane 0]

What's the point of having weapons restricted in the box if I can just reproduce them by respawning? That is, I can save a certain loadout, drop it all on the ground and respawn several time, creating a very large supply of everything, and if those weapons are really necessary for the mission (specifically AT weapons in "default settings" domination games that have a lot of armor opposition) then the respawn timer is the last thing that would stop that. If ammunition is supposed to be limited, then saving loadout doesn't make much sense. If ammunition is supposed to be unlimited, then the ammo box having limited ammunition and the fact the ammobox gets refilled every X seconds doesn't make much sense.

I think that maybe some extra features have been added over time (weapon limiting, gear loadout save, etc) and you may be taking them as if they were all written at once with some grand cohesive plan in mind, but I don't think that was the case.. it simply evolved over time and as such, not everything makes perfect sense without starting over from scratch, which I trust you do not expect him to do. Regardless of the reasons, why not just edit it? It's simple to edit the ammo counts in the box to fit your needs. (see x_weaponcargo.sqf) You can also easily add an ammo box action item that will reload your saved ammo loadout to solve your RTB rearm hassle problem.

An observation: I'm curious if you go to other peoples mission threads and say how such and such doesn't make sense, or if only Xeno gets this stellar treatment because he made a popular map, and is now somehow forever indebted to provide support and upgrades on it, making sure everything is cohesive and perfect with each release and feature added. Wtf? It's a complicated system, I'm sure you'll agree it's pushed the envelope of dynamic mission design. With 2000 posts here, I assume you have picked up enough information to make the simple changes to suit your desires? I think this may be where the attitude stems from.

[Tankbuster 1733]

You can also easily add an ammo box action item that will reload your saved ammo loadout to solve your RTB rearm hassle problem.

<not quite on topic>

ooo, ooo! You mean a 'load loadout function'? Functionally the partner of "save loadout"? If so, could you lend the code?

[oktane 0]

<not quite on topic>

ooo, ooo! You mean a 'load loadout function'? Functionally the partner of "save loadout"? If so, could you lend the code?

Sounds pretty on topic..

• Find all instances of 'addAction ["Save gear layout"' (use Find in Files as mentioned previously in this thread)
  
• Add an additional action menu item (copy paste, edit) for the boxes you wish to affect. You probably wouldn't want to do it for in-the-field boxes. Or create a timer check to prevent repeated abuse refilling. (spamming javelins from the box on a hill outside of town for example) Make the action item call x_script\x_loadlayout.sqf or whatever you'd like.
  
• Copy and paste all of the code from x_playerspawn.sqf into your new file, then delete the unneeded stuff that doesn't have to do with specifically giving the player weapons/mags from d_custom_layout/d_custom_backpack(if ACE, d_custom_ruckbkw, d_custom_ruckmag, d_custom_ruckwep too)
  

I'm not going to write it for you though, it's dependent on your own initiative to make the feature. The code is already done for you though, you just have to copy and paste xeno's code (that gets run when you respawn) into something new so you manually activate it. :)

[Tankbuster 1733]

Thanks Oktane, I have code, just need to deploy and test.

[Starshina(RUS) 10]

Thanks for new version of our favorite Domi, but we have some troubles with camps. Capture them by blue forces doesn't trigger for capture of a town mostly. If resistance or red forces re-capture even one camp - no chances for blue forces to close this town. We should ask reds to come and to capture camps to close this mission finally.

Also both sides can see wreck and mashes markers of opposite force on the map.

Beside that is it good idea to penalty for arty, creation of personal vehicles and destroing of empty tanks? In current system of damage it is hard task sometimes to determine is a tank destroyed and empty or not and rank degradation for arty or bycile looks.... strange a little.

Could we see Domi with full ACE2 weaponry and ammo?

[xeno 230]

@Starshina(RUS)

Thank you for the feedback regarding the TT PvP version (not much feedback for this version, therefore any hint is appreciated :) and I haven't played it yet).

I'll take a look at it in the next time as soon as I find some time (TT will be first priority including an ACE version of it which doesn't exist and isn't really supported currently).

Xeno

[Varga 10]

I shall approve @Starshina(RUS)

TT PvP version - the best variant of such mission for today. But problems with camps (JIP cheking??) are available and it is very a pity that they spoil impression about this version...

Also very much surprise huge penalties for use of bicycles (??lieutenant on bike??) and arty in a mode "ranked" and surprising protection of infantrymen in a mode "expert" (5 bullets in the body - not reason of their death - only headshot killed these terminators).

PS. Also It happens bug when the player of one of the parties(sides) not estimated AI as the opponent and as a result it is possible freely goes on camp\city INS - and they will not shoot at you. Scores, accordingly, in that case go in a minus. Surprising problem, and the reasons of it are not obvious...

Edited May 10, 2010 by Varga

[xeno 230]

@Varaga

I've only tested the TT version without Ranked and no ACE (and testing MP missions alone isn't allways the best thing even if you have some experience :)) and never thought about ranked and TT.

I promise it'll be improved but can't tell you when it will be available (it's done when it's done ).

Xeno

[Regi 10]

Xeno, first off thanks for the great missions you have put out, dunno where multilayer would be without you!

The only thing i have wondered about since my clans server has been running the ace version of domi (BIS wounds), is there a reason why there isnt the full weapon list in ammo crate.

If i recall correctly in arma 1 you had the all the weapons in there, every single variant of the weapons. It was one of the reasons i loved Ace, the choice i had to pick my weapon from an endless list to suit my every need.

So this is me putting in a request for the full weapon box :)

Oh and if this has already been asked for sorry, i checked back a few pages but couldnt find anything about it.