co30 DominationA2! One Team

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Regi, the feature you love is the feature I hate :) Trying to get in up close and personal with the enemy is not fun as a SAW gunner when you're surrounded by "snipers", on a mission that is incredibly sniper unfriendly. Now, if you're in a clan, then sure, you get the option to play in whatever agreed fashion you prefer. But for the public gameplay, to me it breaks more than it fixes.

[Varga 10]

I've only tested the TT version without Ranked and no ACE (and testing MP missions alone isn't allways the best thing even if you have some experience :)) and never thought about ranked and TT.

IMHO TT+Ranked+ACE - very interested mod with very different variants of gameplay. I have already changed 2.06 for such game, but the problems described above do not give is high-grade it to full test.

I promise it'll be improved but can't tell you when it will be available (it's done when it's done ).

Yessss, masssterrr... © :-)

[Tankbuster 1746]

@Varaga

I've only tested the TT version without Ranked and no ACE (and testing MP missions alone isn't allways the best thing even if you have some experience :)) and never thought about ranked and TT.

I promise it'll be improved but can't tell you when it will be available (it's done when it's done ).

Xeno

I'll be looking at TT soon as part of my next project.

[Varga 10]

I am afraid to ask - what for the next project? :-)

PS. On TT mode is possible to make many interesting games, IMHO.

I have already offered one idea dear Xeno, there can be he will become interested.

But there are also the friend the interesting variants, capable to develop in quite independent modes.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Varga

[evolve-r 10]

Xeno,please make Domination East ACE!!!!

[Jan.K 10]

Gents, help a n00b out pls :)

I swapped out the units for new BWmod, all seems to be working but i cant load ammoboxes in new MHQ... if someone could point me in the right direction it would be great

Thx in advance

[Regi 10]

Regi, the feature you love is the feature I hate :) Trying to get in up close and personal with the enemy is not fun as a SAW gunner when you're surrounded by "snipers", on a mission that is incredibly sniper unfriendly. Now, if you're in a clan, then sure, you get the option to play in whatever agreed fashion you prefer. But for the public gameplay, to me it breaks more than it fixes.

I think im actually agreeing with you here though.

I find that there are only so many variants on the sniper rifles, wheras there are loads and loads of Assault rifles, sub machine gun, and fewer but still there CQB machine guns. And because there are more variants, people are more inclined to go, you know what, il try this assault rifle out quickly... and maybe they weill stick with it instead of going ZOMG I CAN HAS A BIG SNIPER RIFLE.

(it sounds stupid, but i find a lot of guys who snipe on public get gun envy :P , not all though, some guys i know are brilliant snipers)

Personally wish there was a way so you could limit it so only three guys could be snipers at a given moment, but thats just me.

Because Xeno hasnt replied to this i assume he dosnt want the full ammo box in, so i will just have to wait till there are less updates on the maps so i can edit the version.

[galzohar 31]

The main problem probably has more to do with the islands than the mission. Most towns in most islands (especially Chernarus) have at least 1 spot that dominates most of the town where a sniper/javelin/smaw guy can sit and shoot down killing most enemies in the town, and when you actually move in there you have very little left to fight. Trying to actually get close to the town without snipers/marksmen clearing most of it first is going to be difficult for most towns as almost any approach you pick will get you attacked (and thus be forced to fight back) at long ranges, which again brings you back to needing that DMR/SMAW. But again this is more of an island problem than a Domination problem.

Sure you can try work around it by removing/limiting said weapons, but don't be surprised if the gameplay doesn't actually improve and you find yourself playing the same sniper role except with an AT4 and an M16 which gives you a very hard time hitting anything at the distances where you end up engaging enemies due to lack of other options.

On islands other than Chernarus, though, the problem can be not as bad (as well as worse). Duala specifically, while still allowing sniping into most towns, at least usually also allows you to reach the town without killing everything in it first if you wish, even if it isn't as effective as sniping everything inside of it first. Everon is the exact opposite - There it seems even a DMR and a SMAW don't have sufficient range for the kinds of engagements you get there. Trying to reach anywhere near the town without sniping all/most of it first is a major challenge.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

True, the island suits Domination not as good as Sahrani. Sahrani had a number of decent sized towns and a couple of cities. Here the tightly packed enemies suited better. Chernarus holds mostly tiny villages, except for a few decent towns. There is low chance of getting up close.

But the gameplay seems to be "let's clear the town first, then deal with the objectives", since the objectives can rarely be reached without causing a stir. In my edit I've turned up the sizes significantly, and put the objectives on the outskirts. Makes it a little more objective oriented, and you may be able to get to these defendable camps. Armor and vehicles have limited possibility to get to you in there (limited barrel down), and they might have to expose themselves to other elements hiding elsewhere. What is needed now is to make that BTR suppress the crap out of the player who is in that place while infantry maneuver to get it back. Maybe if targetlist near that object is clear, then put an invisible armor/car target in front of it would do the trick? :) The fear, man, the fear :D

[Keshman 10]

Hello) I have a question again :rolleyes:

I take in a ammobox more different grenades : frag, smoke, gas, flash....... but I can only use FRAG! all the grenades with me! Work jast frag :icon_wink: I use and play Domi ACE West AI 2.06 or ACE West 2.06. If the problem in the ACE, but not in the mission! sorry!

[Evil_Echo 11]

The main problem probably has more to do with the islands than the mission. Most towns in most islands (especially Chernarus) have at least 1 spot that dominates most of the town where a sniper/javelin/smaw guy can sit and shoot down killing most enemies in the town, and when you actually move in there you have very little left to fight. Trying to actually get close to the town without snipers/marksmen clearing most of it first is going to be difficult for most towns as almost any approach you pick will get you attacked (and thus be forced to fight back) at long ranges, which again brings you back to needing that DMR/SMAW. But again this is more of an island problem than a Domination problem.

Sure you can try work around it by removing/limiting said weapons, but don't be surprised if the gameplay doesn't actually improve and you find yourself playing the same sniper role except with an AT4 and an M16 which gives you a very hard time hitting anything at the distances where you end up engaging enemies due to lack of other options.

On islands other than Chernarus, though, the problem can be not as bad (as well as worse). Duala specifically, while still allowing sniping into most towns, at least usually also allows you to reach the town without killing everything in it first if you wish, even if it isn't as effective as sniping everything inside of it first. Everon is the exact opposite - There it seems even a DMR and a SMAW don't have sufficient range for the kinds of engagements you get there. Trying to reach anywhere near the town without sniping all/most of it first is a major challenge.

Confused here. Why limit valid tactics and weapons? If you control the high ground then you should have the advantage. Ditto for artillery knocking out an objective.

The problem is not the weapons. It's the AI. If they act like ducks in a shooting gallery then Domination will turn into a shooting gallery. Domi is much better than it was in A1, much more patrolling of armor and counter-fire. But it could be better still - that's just the nature of software.

IRL - if the Russians lost just one vehicle to AT fire they'd be sending out patrols to likely areas or more likely calling air support to hose down likely control points. If artillery hit the area, then they'd use counterbattery fire. Similarly there are counter-sniper drills.

I've made missions where a FSM controlled the AI artillery targeting and it's a huge game changer. If you get spotted and don't move - mortars clobber you. So players tend to stay stealthy, don't camp, and work fast to knock out enemy command and control - just like real combat.

I know Xeno, he's very good with FSM's. If he did something similar to my work, you'd have a far tougher game on your hands.

[galzohar 31]

It's not so much about limiting tactics, it's more about that every town has the exact same tactic because the islands are made in a certain way. Even with the best patrol scripts, AI still can't do much when they're in the open (or semi-open area) and are being shot by weapons that outrange them.

[Evil_Echo 11]

Odd - my clan uses very different tactics on different missions and side-missions. Being we play Domi with very few people might make a difference as well. Many servers encourage uncoordinated mobs - we don't.

How did you come up with the notion of being out-ranged? RU forces have heavy sniper weapons, excellent AA and Air-Ground capabilities, and the T-90 is one tough cookie if ACE's armor system plus Arena/Shtora are active. Deploy those forces properly and command them intelligently - they'd mop the floor with you.

[galzohar 31]

I never found AI to be too good snipers, and with unlimited SMAW/javelin ammo even the best armor drop quickly enough if your MHQ is placed in a reasonable position (fire javelin, respawn, repeat until all armor is eliminated and then do the same with DMR/M107 for eliminating the infantry). And unfortunately, this kind of tactic is possible on pretty much any town because just about any town in Chernarus (as well as Everon (worse than Chernarus) and Duala (a bit better than Chernarus)) has at least 1 place that overwatches most of it which allows for such tactics.

Again, this isn't so much about the mission as it is about the island(s).

[Evil_Echo 11]

I can't blame the island map nor the weapons provided if someone's concept of tactics is just fight a war of attrition via use of unlimited ammo and respawns. You could beat Domination using suicide runs to plant AT-mines/satchel charges and crash helos into Hinds to knock out air cover - just like dumb players in Battlefield and Call of Duty do all the time.

You counter dumb planning with smarter opponents and better skill sets. Once you get smeared across the map a few times most players would wise up.

[galzohar 31]

Even if you play trying to finish the mission with minimum number of deaths, I still don't see why you would want to do anything other than camp on a hill using long range weapons, except instead of respawning to get more ammo you'd have to go to the ammobox and when that runs out wait until it fills up (otherwise how else are you going to destroy the armor?).

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I've made missions where a FSM controlled the AI artillery targeting and it's a huge game changer. If you get spotted and don't move - mortars clobber you.

I have something similar in my Domino edit. They will pound you with mortar or arty, smoke or he spotrounds (if you hear one land, you'd better start running), illumination at night in different ways, smoke if too close in different ways, and even some apicm to get us going. It encourages people to get up close, because then their only option is smoke - something not very much used anyway. And very often you do get a warning in the form of a quite inaccurate spotround. Vehicle usage is severely toned down so maneuver is actually possible. From what I've heard people seems to like it, artillery was pretty immensive. Maybe Xeno should have a look? :)

I never found AI to be too good snipers, and with unlimited SMAW/javelin ammo even the best armor drop quickly enough if your MHQ is placed in a reasonable position (fire javelin, respawn, repeat until all armor is eliminated and then do the same with DMR/M107 for eliminating the infantry). And unfortunately, this kind of tactic is possible on pretty much any town because just about any town in Chernarus (as well as Everon (worse than Chernarus) and Duala (a bit better than Chernarus)) has at least 1 place that overwatches most of it which allows for such tactics.

Respawn = valid tactics? I once (or many times) suggested to increase the default respawn time to about two minutes, in order to "force" people into being more careful than the typical public mayhem. But I got "No way, you can't do that to players. Players want to play!". Apparently they don't want to "play", they just want to "kill some shit and see things blow up using a ton of fancy hardware - over and over and over again". Why do they even play Arma if that's how they're gonna play it? Domination is usually played like an action shooter, because it allows them to. But I have also seen Domination being played brilliantly, organized, with a strong focus on teamplay. And I've seen good plans on public servers go to waste because of some kid ruining it all when a surprise attack was setup and mr. kid just decides to start "sniping". Instantly killed of course, but what the hell, just respawn - no worries :(

Try this for "tactics" - don't start a fight you can't win. Do the side missions if you're few. I only wish side missions and main target rewards was swapped again, and that side missions were easier (less to no armor). Promotes doing the main targets to get good awards, and let small groups have fun at side missions where not every man has to be an AT specialist. Domination (and most of it's custom versions) is way too hardware oriented for my taste. Hardware support is nice, but it's demoralizing being the only infantry in the zone. You tend to sit and watch until they've done the target solo for 10-15 minutes until you figure out you have better things to do in the editor.

[galzohar 31]

Like I already said (and you seem to have not read) - How are you going to destroy all that armor without respawning? And even if you do wait for the ammobox to refill, you'll still use the same tactic of sitting on a hill sniping everything from as far away as possible, in fact you will probably do it even more as you actually try not to die, and moving in on the city would just make you die more often.

[Evil_Echo 11]

Even if you play trying to finish the mission with minimum number of deaths, I still don't see why you would want to do anything other than camp on a hill using long range weapons, except instead of respawning to get more ammo you'd have to go to the ammobox and when that runs out wait until it fills up (otherwise how else are you going to destroy the armor?).

I'll tell how we used to kill the enemy....

We used our FO to drop HE in carefully arranged time-on-target fire missions to damage enemy armor - kill the crew, repair the vehicle and then use that along with vehicles we earned to kill more tanks. Sometimes we'd slip into an area and trap the bejeebers out of it with AT mines, SLAMS and satchels. The snipers did overwatch duty to spot trouble and protect the close-in folks - ocassionally taking out a turned-out gunner to cripple a Shilka or BDRM.

While other teams were slogging away we were infiltrating and destroying radio towers to cut off resupply. Slip in past the guards and slip out un-noticed. Never stop moving. We used smoke for cover and pop-up attacks to hit armor from the rear close-up - rarely using Javelins because they are too darn heavy for that kind of action.

If helos came in we fought back with whatever we could - a captured T-72 is a fine way to put a hole in a Ka-52 cockpit. Instead of Stingers - M72 LAW, AT-4, or SMAW would be used at times. Once you get the knack of leading the target they are suprisingly hard-hitting - plus those rockets don't care how many flares the helo pops off. More than a couple choppers were downed with captured Stela's as well. And one was nailed by a D-30.

The screenshot is from A1, but demonstrates our point nicely. We had enough captured equipment to run a used-armor sales outlet. All due to using brains vs brawn and thinking outside the box.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2033/crazymarshallstankempor.jpg

[Tankbuster 1746]

It's certainly effective, but stealing enemy armour leaves me a bit cold. I lock all the enemy aircraft and armour now, leaving just the cars available.

Also, we made a nice change to the base service points. You know the "capture a kamov" side mission? Until the players have successfully completed that SM, the main base helo service point won't work on captured enemy helos. Likewise for the "capture enemy tank" mission. Until that's done the armour service point won't work on captured enemy armour.

[oktane 0]

All I'm going to say is it's up to the players how they want to play. To emphasize on infantry tactics, armor should be set to 'less' and skill on 'high'. Then armor is not an issue to infantry..

There isn't really a way to 'train' the people that think respawn is acceptable. If you punish them with long respawn times, they just leave. Which is okay, probably preferable, unless you are trying to populate a server.

Normally, a bunch of guys on TS will get together to do a mission or town, coordinated. We don't respawn, we don't teleport, none of that nonsense. It's self discipline, you aren't going to get it out of people that don't care about it.

So galzohar, this incessant complaining about this and that in this mission which does not suit your desired tactics, well I think you should find some mates to have fun with on voice comms, preferably with OFP experience. :D As in, people who take things slow and methodically, and have considerable shame of dying in game while playing 'realistically' with friends. If we have an overwhelming obstacle, there are many assets which are available to us. (arty, coordinated air attacks) However, 'instill virtue of patience into pubber' isn't one of features you can add to the map and still have it be popular. (then again, maybe you don't care about player count, but it makes it more fun when there is more action going on.. even if there are people doing totally stupid shit.. just stay away from them and play realistically with your mates)

Do not expect the mission to enforce professionalism or realism. That task lies in the players, who have the choice of choosing not to use unnecessary arcade features. This retains the missions flexibility and popularity with the arcade-liking population which are the majority.

Edited May 15, 2010 by oktane

[galzohar 31]

I focus most of my mission making efforts to enforce just that - professionalism and realism - Mostly by making you fail the mission when you play badly due to no (or limited) respawns. Of course, they are nowhere near the scale of domination, as I honestly have no idea how to combine large scale and long duration with that. Anyway this discussion strayed well away from the problem I originally pointed out - Started it out as a terrain issue that forces you to use long range weapons from a static position and it turned into a discussion of respawns, while the 2 problems are quite different and not very much related.

Is domination really balanced around stealing and repairing enemy armor? I was getting the impression that it wasn't designed for it, especially since there is an option to completely disable it, thus when we did try to play it we either disabled it (locked enemy vehicles in mission parameters) or simply didn't try to steal anything. We do usually set mission parameters to the most difficult assuming the mission maker made sure the mission is not impossible with them, though as we already discussed in domination the "ranked" options (which is also more difficult than default) doesn't work all that well as the towns don't scale in difficulty according to the rank you're expected to have at that point, and destroying a non-negligible number of T-72s with just AT-4s when engagement range is 300-600 meters without a lot of options to get closer is not a whole lot of fun.

[chefd261 0]

Hello all looked and did not see that anyone has touched on this there is a parameter that you can set to auto kick for team kills I am not sure if I am just missing something but we cant seem to get it to work.(tried on Dedi and hosted ace revive,carrier,wound and Ai) is this a feature that is pending.

Cheer's ChefD

[xeno 234]

It would be nice if you could discuss what you don't like or not in some other thread or via PM. I have a hard time finding information like bug reports in here, cluttered as it is now with irrelevant bla bla.

This game, like any other game out there is only defined by the players that play it.

If players don't want to play as a team, they don't do it. There is no mission, no addon, no mod who can force it (there never will be).

Though the chances to find teamplay might be higher in other games simply because of the higher player numbers other games have (and not like ArmA 2 sometimes 100 players online only).

Xeno

[galzohar 31]

Is it even possible to kick someone by a script?