3rd person versus Egoshootermode

[smookie 11]

The 3rd view in vehicles creates the same problem - you still can look over obstacles and most of all, there is no way anyone can sneak up on such vehicles (like it would be possible normally) and plant satchel charges for instance. Should the viewpilot models be created, just like they were in OFP, there would be probably no problem at all at navigating any kind of vehicle in the game using 1st person view only.

[NeMeSiS 11]

The 3rd view in vehicles creates the same problem - you still can look over obstacles and most of all, there is no way anyone can sneak up on such vehicles (like it would be possible normally) and plant satchel charges for instance. Should the viewpilot models be created, just like they were in OFP, there would be probably no problem at all at navigating any kind of vehicle in the game using 1st person view only.

Then again, in real life i tend to have mirrors on my car so i can drive backwards without running over my mates.

Preferably this would be solved with real ingame mirrors, but i need 3rd person in vehicles in the meantime.

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

Smookie and Nemesis are both right, I think. Game limitations make it difficult to do both opinions justice. In our group we normally have the passenger get out and tell the driver via TS how to steer clear of obstacles. If other players are around and fear they might get run over by a vehicle in reverse, they can either clear the area or talk to the driver. If TSis not an option, ingame text chat can help. This may not be ideal, but it works most of the time. Working rear mirros would be great, though.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Alpha-Kilo

[Herbal Influence 10]

Well ... the 3rd-view-problem has been discussed a lot about and your remark has been discussed already in the first post: If you like the "tunnel-view" it's your choice.

I would like to discuss the topic of unrealistic amount of windowframes and other viewing hindrances in vehicles whereas the hindrances themselves might be of exact scale.

Though they are of exact scale - no realworld pilot would fly the ah-64 in a war situation with the view it has at present because of the reduced view.

That's my thesis.

Yes. I am right. ;-)

[liquidpinky 11]

Smookie and Nemesis are both right, I think. Game limitations make it difficult to do both opinions justice. In our group we normally have the passenger get out and tell the driver via TS how to steer clear of obstacles. If other players are around and fear they might get run over by a vehicle in reverse, they can either clear the area or talk to the driver. If TSis not an option, ingame text chat can help. This may not be ideal, but it works most of the time. Working rear mirros would be great, though.

Not to mention some vehicles veiw while turned in is a bit obscured or even not functional at all. Try a BTR-90 for example.

I am sat here with three monitors and a TrackIR5 (well not exactly as I am at work right now but in around an hours time), shouldn't someone with only a single monitor not have an option to compete more fairly with me, eg third person view?

[galzohar 31]

Sure no 3rd person might be a small slightly unrealistic hindrance at times, but when enabled is a huge, unrealistic advantage.

[whisper 0]

Not to mention some vehicles veiw while turned in is a bit obscured or even not functional at all. Try a BTR-90 for example.

I am sat here with three monitors and a TrackIR5 (well not exactly as I am at work right now but in around an hours time), shouldn't someone with only a single monitor not have an option to compete more fairly with me, eg third person view?

Not when it means giving the ability to see through walls (or even inside houses from outside when you're squad leader), which is what 3rd PoV gives you.

[BasileyOne 10]

FPS ftw.

even in vehicles.

should be locked down that way on any Good server.

and rest in "default" state on Evil ones ;)

[whisper 0]

BTW, there's a solution to enable 3rd PoV in vehicles and disable it on foot, in MP.

Server admins can use Server side scripting : http://dev-heaven.net/projects/serversidescripting/wiki

And use the code snippet for 3rd PoV infantry disabling listed here :

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/serversidescripting/wiki/Example_3rd_PoV

[Sirex1 10]

Okay, time to bring this discussion around. How do we fix better fov in firstperson view?

Does increasing resolution and playing in zoomed out mode give more realistic fov?

Do trackir as infantry to an extend minilise the "nervous looking to side to side" behavior sence you get better fluent control?

What aspects of a monitor is important to look at for wanting to get better fov and still see things?

How do we tweak our setting?

Does it exist tri monitor that don't cost redicoulos amount of money?

Overall i think it's alright with zoomed out firstperson, if you need to fire at something at a distance, start fire then right click zoom and kill it. All tanks firstperson then use the normal view so this is a none issue. Cars don't matter, as much, you have a such high profile you really can't exploit corner and ridges like when infantry. Aircraft and helicopters i really don't know, maybe third person with track ir?

[liquidpinky 11]

Okay, time to bring this discussion around. How do we fix better fov in firstperson view?

Does increasing resolution and playing in zoomed out mode give more realistic fov?

Do trackir as infantry to an extend minilise the "nervous looking to side to side" behavior sence you get better fluent control?

What aspects of a monitor is important to look at for wanting to get better fov and still see things?

How do we tweak our setting?

Does it exist tri monitor that don't cost redicoulos amount of money?

Overall i think it's alright with zoomed out firstperson, if you need to fire at something at a distance, start fire then right click zoom and kill it. All tanks firstperson then use the normal view so this is a none issue. Cars don't matter, as much, you have a such high profile you really can't exploit corner and ridges like when infantry. Aircraft and helicopters i really don't know, maybe third person with track ir?

Before I bought the three monitors I have, I was considering three £150 monitors that were 23" 1080P. I have settled on three Packard Bell 24" 1080P monitors at £200 each. I have spent around £800 on the 2 3GB GFX580s, the extra memory comes in handy for the higher resolutions required for three monitor usage.

Yes you could go cheaper or even with one ATI card using eyefinity, but don't think for a minute you will get the same performance. I am considering a third card as a future upgrade also.

So in my case £1400 has been spent on GFX cards and monitors but you could go as low as £600 I would have thought depending on what monitors and GFX cards you choose. You could also go a lot lot higher.

TrackIR or Freetrack and FacetrackNoIR I would recommend as they do add more fluidity to play.

[BasileyOne 10]

after i do market survey and seem tons of LCD monitors, including really expensive ones, at price of cheap car, i really conclude thats still nothing good for gaming as good 20''-22'' CRT. even [overpriced and overpromoted]S-IPS monitors not impressive anyway :[ buy THAT ? no, thanks :-/

p.s.

no color[24-bit color isnt perfect even for xVA/IPS screens, let alone TN], stoneageold-resolution, ridiculous refresh, dangerous[4 eye] backlight[in non-Led-monitors] and etc and etc.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Okay, time to bring this discussion around. How do we fix better fov in firstperson view?

Does increasing resolution and playing in zoomed out mode give more realistic fov?

Do trackir as infantry to an extend minilise the "nervous looking to side to side" behavior sence you get better fluent control?

What aspects of a monitor is important to look at for wanting to get better fov and still see things?

How do we tweak our setting?

Does it exist tri monitor that don't cost redicoulos amount of money?

Overall i think it's alright with zoomed out firstperson, if you need to fire at something at a distance, start fire then right click zoom and kill it. All tanks firstperson then use the normal view so this is a none issue. Cars don't matter, as much, you have a such high profile you really can't exploit corner and ridges like when infantry. Aircraft and helicopters i really don't know, maybe third person with track ir?

Up here, two years ago?, a war veteran and chopper pilot explained that he considers flying a chopper without 3rd view unrealistic.

[Sim.M 48]

I have to say I've never used 3rd person except when we've been 'shooting videos' for youtube. Otherwise I never use it. Our server has it set off at all times and we train without it. To those guys who use it I figure they need the training wheels just to get a vehicle out of base or a helo to land.

I especially like it when some 14 year old 'expert pilot' can't fly at all without it...

I figure it all stems from Tomb Raider when folks got all excited about watching Laura's butt as she ran from here to there. I personally have always believed 3rd person has no place whatsoever in a military simulator except for camera/training video use.

While I sort of understand a little bit that Herbal is saying - especially in terms of peripheral vision and the ease at which we are used to it in real life, I think there are plenty of game aids (TrackIR, ShacTac HUD) that more than make up for the lack of a wide angle, over the shoulder/wall/rock/vehicle view.

I also firmly believe that if you use training wheels you become dependant upon them. If you never use them you learn how to adapt and overcome.

As to that helo pilot - he's full of it, every pilot I've ever met has never used 3rd person in the real world cause it doesn't exist. No pilot has ever been able to look at the rear of his aircraft when he's in the jump seat, so saying its unrealistic not to have it in the game is a load of concentrated BS.

As a car driver for over 30 years I can specifically say I've never missed 3rd person when I drive and I rarely hit objects (well...sometimes I scrape things).

[hund 0]

While I haven't read the statements of the aforementioned helicopter pilot, my best guess would be that he felt that 3rd gives you a better sense or feeling for your craft, just as you would have in real life. So it's not only about being able to see your helicopter from behind, at least in the case of flying vehicles. I guess it comes down to one camp thinking that everything should look like it does in real life, at the cost of realism (because the platform is limited, and can't properly simulate real life consitions, so you end up simulating a slightly retarded person with a cardboard box on his head), and another camp that believes that you have to cut some corners to achieve realism through abstraction (3rd person is one of those abstractions, audio-visual suppression is another).

I use 3rd whenever I can because I like looking at my cool little green dude as he does cool shit in the game. And although I couldn't give a toss about being realistic, some would argue that your situational awareness is closer to realistic values in 3rd person (looking around corners and above walls is another matter though).

So call me a nooberito with training wheels if you must, I can live with that. I'd be rather pleased if they expanded upon the third person part of the game, since the current system is a bit bare-bones, but that is hardly going to happen.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Hund

[CarlGustaffa 4]

For me, the drawbacks and cheats of infantry 3rd person completely outweights the benefits, most of which to me sounds questionable anyway. I don't understand this "expanded awareness" from using 3rd. It may hold true in extreme CQB as engagement distances are very short. But at "normal ranges" moving a viewcone a few meters back doesn't reveal much extra. You don't get a wider viewcone like you do when holding num minus (unless built into that camera mode, haven't noticed or checked).

For planes it have no practical meaning if its on or off. For choppers I can agree that 3rd helps but only due lack of 6 DOF camera. If Arma3 gets what's already in TAKOH, 3rd is no longer needed there either.

That will also help on certain ground vehicles like trucks with unusable side windows or CROWE HMMWVs for same reason, as you may now be able to actually move/translate the head around for better views. Maybe even combined with PiP technology for working mirrors where appropriate.

Other vehicles like Abrams or Strykers, it's supposed to be awkward. 3rd here enables far too good positional awareness compared to what you will get in real life. As crew, you either use optics with whatever drawbacks that imposes, or you turn out and in the process expose yourself. I wouldn't mind better ingame indicators though for vehicles with unstabilized turrets, as you can't fully control what AI does and you would be able to lower your head to visually see orientation. Annoying? Yes. Even if improved. But it doesn't warrant something as extreme as 3rd.

I've done my fair share of chopper flying since OFP days, even if I don't consider myself a pilot (I prefer SAW and MG grunt). The few times I have crashed (20 or so?) due lack of realistic visibility (and no, I don't use 3rd even if enabled on server), I can only blame myself for not concentrating and visually assess the landing zone before touchdown. Of course I've crashed due to being shot down and of course due to Arma1 setPos bug, but 3rd wouldn't have helped anything there. Also some crazy loss of control, but I can't blame the view.

Conclusion: 3rd may help with chopper flying today, but considering my own merits, it's fully possible to do without it. And if TAKOH head control and PiP is implemented, including for ground vehicles, I can't imagine anything realistic left from 3rd. 3rd as an abstraction wouldn't be needed.

[hund 0]

It gives you situational awareness because you can see, as opposed to feel, what is going on in the area around you, and you can see at exactly what your craft is doing, be it your average aircraft your own hot body. The viewcone does increase a little, but the effects are minimal as your say. Machineguns become a whole lot more effective in grassy environments, because they can use 3rd and tracers to somewhat effectively engage the enemy.

You might be a special case Gustaffa, but for me 3rd person increases my awareness a lot, and with awareness comes mobility. That is probably the reason why I only like 3rd person for dudes, not for vehicles. Firstly, vehicles don't tend to have that many cool animations so theres little to look at. Secondly, the behaviour of vehicles with only first becomes a lot more realistic suddenly when they can't see in 3rd. ACE made a little addon that disables 3rd except for vehicles and that's exactly what I want, just completely the other way around!

As long as you don't have a full pressure suit or a hydraulic cockpit to play around in, I fear that abstractions (3rd view among them) will have to make up for what you're missing.

I was thinking about something Mr Serf said above; about 3rd having no place in a simulation game. It struck me that although we bought the same product, Mr Serf and I play two different games. He plays a "military simulation" and I play a "war game", so there is bound to be some friction of opinions on these matters. It's a testament to the versatility of Arma, I suppose. :)

Edited October 22, 2011 by Hund

[galzohar 31]

While I agree first person is less manageable than RL, the problem is 3rd person is more manageable than RL, and considering all the many game-breaking advantages of 3rd person and the fact the game is still quite manageable with 1st person, I find 1st person a significantly better compromise. But I agree it is a compromise.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Thank you galzohar for your sober and reasonable explanation.

I am quite sure we all would already be dead, if we were to join real life with that what I call tunnelview.

We would have been already hit by some civil cars in our civil town after 30 min downtown.

I call it tunnelview because in real life your viewing angle is much bigger than that, what you see on the screen without 3rd view. Do you notice, without turning your head, someone standing 90 degree of you? In real life: yes, you sure do. In tunnelview: you are dead.

Noone of us would enter war with blindfolds ...

But as galzohar pointed out: it is a compromise.

My personal preference is the same as Hund's quoted above.

Sure 3rd view allows to "cheat" compared to real life, but it also reduces the beauty of the game (movements of character/avatar no more visible and extreme, irrealistic reduction of environmental awareness).

I never forget we already had this discussion in 2003 there was a "3rd-view is unrealistic!"-shoutier who nevertheless routinely killed himself when he damaged his vehicles or found himself too far away from the place he wanted to get to ... What do I want to say? We all chose the realism we want. That's the games flexibility. I love to constantly change between tunnelview and 3rd view during a big crcti mission ... that's in "veteran mode" which shows all the beauty of the game.

Before I began this thread the fraction of gamers who loved 3rd view were often cut off and called being noobs. It was a long and slow process for the ones who called themselves the "more reality-oriented" gamers to learn that they in fact cut themselves off a big way from reality by putting their blindfolds on and run-and-shoot-in-a-doom-mode of gaming only.

BIS games are far too beautiful for just the doom-mode of gaming.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Herbal Influence

[nkenny 1051]

Doom as opposed to WoW mode? :P

The 'cheats' inherent in third person view are widely exagerated and generally limited in practical utility to laying prone behind low fences and peeking over. More to the point Third person view delays the act of shooting accurately-- or going in sights mode-- or just center screen instinct shooting.

Which is why I only use third person to observe or when laying behind the aforementioned fences.

I doubt 3rd person will be removed in the future. Why? Because I have a sneaking suspicion that BIS internally largely play with 3rd person constantly on. Find me a video of an official BIS developer doing a vid solely in first person.

-k

[galzohar 31]

Yeah, when you think about "doom vs WoW mode" I think it's another bonus point for 1st person :)

Not that I think WoW is terrible, but doom is so much more similar to Arma :)

There are definitely at least someone at BIS playing with 3rd person, as was shown in one of the demo videos of Arma 3.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Doom as opposed to WoW mode? :P

The 'cheats' inherent in third person view are widely exagerated and generally limited in practical utility to laying prone behind low fences and peeking over. More to the point Third person view delays the act of shooting accurately-- or going in sights mode-- or just center screen instinct shooting.

Which is why I only use third person to observe or when laying behind the aforementioned fences.

I doubt 3rd person will be removed in the future. Why? Because I have a sneaking suspicion that BIS internally largely play with 3rd person constantly on. Find me a video of an official BIS developer doing a vid solely in first person.

-k

For sure BIS will encourage freedom of choice as it has always done.

But the beauty of it all is much more visible than in tunnelview - so it comes that for demonstrational purposes you choose 3rd view. I chose tunnelview quite often during a game, especiall when shooting - but not constantly.

[Deathstroke 10]

Situation with 3rd:

I see some enemy soldiers I fire and quickly move to a house accross the street. A friendly players reports he also knows that at least 1 more soldier is west of my position. Given the guys position and good guess of his objective I flank him on his route in order to get behind him. I finally see him and engage, upon entering the building he ran into i get shot once entering.

After asking how he knew i was coming he said that he saw me flank with 3rd turned on.

This is for me the reason to no longer play with 3rd on. A player can give me hundreds of reasons to turn it on, but if even arcade shooters turn it off to avoid exploits, how serious can you take a game that doesnt.

A guy can, with 3rd turned on, lie on a roof watching your every move in a busy town till he decides to press x and kill you. Is that realism?

Edited October 31, 2011 by Deathstroke

[dmarkwick 261]

Situation with 3rd:

I see some enemy soldiers I fire and quickly move to a house accross the street. A friendly players reports he also knows that at least 1 more soldier is west of my position. Given the guys position and good guess of his objective I flank him on his route in order to get behind him. I finally see him and engage, upon entering the building he ran into i get shot once entering.

After asking how he knew i was coming he said that he saw me flank with 3rd turned on.

This is for me the reason to no longer play with 3rd on. A player can give me hundreds of reasons to turn it on, but if even arcade shooters turn it off to avoid exploits, how serious can you take a game that doesnt.

A guy can, with 3rd turned on, lie on a roof watching your every move in a busy town till he decides to press x and kill you. Is that realism?

I should say that it is at least as realistic as playing with the equivalent of a cardboard box over your head with a hole cut into the front. But as you say, the great thing is that it's an option that can be turned off.

As soon as I can have fine 3D control over my avatar so I can just peep over a surface instead of standing up and lollipopping my position away, then I too will disable 3rd person :)

Edited October 31, 2011 by DMarkwick

[celery 8]

A guy can, with 3rd turned on, lie on a roof watching your every move in a busy town till he decides to press x and kill you. Is that realism?

But everybody knows that realistic firefights (like in Arma 2) don't happen at fewer than 500 meters. Your argument is invalid!