3rd person versus Egoshootermode

[An Fiach 10]

The simple way to resolve this in a realistic manner is for people that want 3rd person view to do what soldiers do in real life and move their head A LOT. Nobody relies on peripheral vision to save them from an enemy threat.

[adom23 10]

I cant beleive ppl are arguing FOR 3rd person view in a mil sim!.. I shall just switch to the camera I have stuck on top of a pole taped to my back to get a better view! crazy!

[spamurai 3]

3rd Person View has it's realistic advantages with a sim. It also has an arcadish side that can be exploited for it's gaming potential.

First Person View is not as realistic as people think and claim it is. It is far more of a claustrophobic interaction with the world around you then you would normally have. Your field of view is only, at most, 90 degrees and you have no peripheral vision. You also lack the natural sense for your personal space.

Third person view creates a more natural sense of situational awareness.

The downside, because no "system" or mode is without compromises, is that you can "peek" around objects. You can also get a great deal more situational awareness then perhaps you should. Like when driving a vehicle.

However, this is a game with a limited interface through which you can interact with a virtual world. There have to be compromises. Try driving a car in the real world with a neck brace on and your peripheral vision locked out to a 75 degree field of view. Try parking your car like that. I can throw a ball into the air from my left hand and catch it with my right hand all without looking at my hands, I just "know" where my hands are in relation to the ball at all times. I just typed out this post without looking at the keyboard at all... I just know where my fingers are in relation to the keyboard. Try modeling that into a virtual 3D world displayed to you on a flat 2D window in which you only get so many buttons to push to accomplish whatever it is you want to do in the game world.

People who decry the virtues of realism in a video game often ignore the fact that the very premise of trying to emulate reality in a fake virtual format requires all kinds of compromise. It just comes down to which compromises they're prepared to ordain and accept or ignore for the sake of their fantasy.

It's always interesting debating "reality" in a video game with hardcore armchair commando's. Fortunately ArmA is customizable... it caters to everyone.

PS: I can peek over a wall or from around a corner without exposing a full third of my body you know. However, I have never known how to respawn myself after having been shot dead.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Spamurai

[galzohar 31]

Actually, in another thread someone measured the FOV in 1st person, and it was ~80-90deg. Zoom out and you will have more, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the full 120deg FOV.

The thing is, you can't have a realistic view on a computer monitor, simply due to pixel size (and to a lesser degree, physical size). The bigger your FOV, the smaller each object is to the point where it becomes invisible due to it being represented by too few pixels (or a too small silhouette). That's why games don't give you 120deg realistic FOV by default.

Note that 3rd person does NOTHING to help this issue. You still have to choose between a biger FOV to better visibility of distant objects. The only thing 3rd person does is allow you to see things that you cannot physically see in any way IRL. It's a 100% realism killer.

1st person IS the realism mode. Not perfect realism, but with proper zoom features it is the best a computer monitor can give you. 3rd person doesn't give you anything that you would've had IRL that you can't have in 1st person.

The only real issue is the fact your head is nailed to the chair when in vehicles, but most are still perfectly manageable. Tank drivers don't see jack s!@# IRL either. I've driven an APC, and my vision was definitely s!@#, you pretty much HAVE to have someone telling you where to go and warn you of certain obstacles, not to mention guide you step by step when you want to reverse. This is all implemented in game by the commander-driver quick commands. In helicopters/airplanes I'm not sure how much being allowed to realistically move your head/body would help - it'd definitely not help nearly as much as the 3rd person view helps.

Edited July 6, 2009 by galzohar

[Herbal Influence 10]

.... 1st person IS the realism mode. ....

That indeed means that you are saying that it is realistic to turn your head constantly from one side to another during the whole game to - that way - gather the real field of view (FOV).

While you concentrate on the monitor - right now ! - you sure realize a person or a thing that moves behind a straight line of your both shoulders, i.e. that is 90 degree right and left of you. The FOV therefore is more than 180 degree.

To reduce this to the egoshooterviewingangle you have without 3rd view ... you use blinds on horses ... and ... you can use a gasmask to do the same.

You would never like to get in a dangerous combat situation that way or - as shown above - try to get your car in a parking lot.

[Alex72 1]

Online i want 1st - in SP on my own i love the 3d for the reason that i love to see my guy. He looks so damn cool. :bigglasses:

[Tiger.BiH 10]

The good thing about a2 is that it gives options to use. If somebody prefers 3rd view its not my place to say you play the game wrong way. If its more fun, more power to them. After all guys this is a game, and lot of things are done to make it fun for example, in a2 you can get in a chopper and be airborne within 5 sec. Can you do that in real life? I don’t think so. But that’s fine, its good the way things are in a2, its got good balance between being realistic and still maintain that fun factor. Would anybody want to fly choppers if you had to get in the chopper and go through 45 steps checking that all your systems are working, making sure everything is in place every time you want to fly? For me it would be boring. I want to get in. get the bird airborne and focus on mission and tactics.

[galzohar 31]

That indeed means that you are saying that it is realistic to turn your head constantly from one side to another during the whole game to - that way - gather the real field of view (FOV).

While you concentrate on the monitor - right now ! - you sure realize a person or a thing that moves behind a straight line of your both shoulders, i.e. that is 90 degree right and left of you. The FOV therefore is more than 180 degree.

To reduce this to the egoshooterviewingangle you have without 3rd view ... you use blinds on horses ... and ... you can use a gasmask to do the same.

You would never like to get in a dangerous combat situation that way or - as shown above - try to get your car in a parking lot.

Like I already explained, 3rd person does not solve FOV problems. It doesn't increase your FOV - all it does is let you see stuff that are in your character's vicinity - most of which you wouldn't have been able to see IRL, and most of the stuff you complained about not seeing in 1st person are not visible in 3rd person either. It's a net realism LOSS. Zooming out for extra FOV does solve FOV problems, so if you still think you don't have enough FOV after zooming out you should cry some more so BIS fixes it.

It seems like the zoomed out FOV is 120deg (which is more or less as far as your eyes can see IRL without moving them), though I hadn't measured it directly yet (look at one of the ACOG threads for similar FOV measurements). They should just fix it so that you can use it anywhere and not just when using a weapon with non-magnifying sights, and also make it go up to 120 degrees if it doesn't already.

The only reason the default FOV is smaller than the realistic FOV is becuase a realistic FOV would reduce your visibility distance (distance to which an object is visible rather than a pixel), and with a monitor you simply can't have both. 3rd person doesn't let you have both either, it just gives you other cheats in its place so that you can play it like it's World of Warcraft.

[Murklor 10]

It seems like the zoomed out FOV is 120deg (which is more or less as far as your eyes can see IRL without moving them), though I hadn't measured it directly yet (look at one of the ACOG threads for similar FOV measurements). They should just fix it so that you can use it anywhere and not just when using a weapon with non-magnifying sights, and also make it go up to 120 degrees if it doesn't already

I doubt its anything but the standard 80-90 FOV. 120 is alot for a game. IMO any FOV other than 90 translate poorly to a monitor. In the worst examples you get a fisheye lens which makes one dizzy and nauscious.

[galzohar 31]

The standard FOV is definitely somewhere between 80 and 90, and you can zoom that out quite a bit more than that. And again, no 3rd person is going to give you that lost FOV back.

[spamurai 3]

I'd say it's 90 degrees and then when you right click to "focus" it zooms in to 75 degrees.

3rd Person is more authentic for emulating the natural awareness for your immediate surroundings. Something 1rst Person can not do.

However, it can give you too much awareness at times. That said, it can be good for gameplay to give players more information then they warrant. It allows them to make the kind of decisions that facilitate there sense of fun by allowing them to focus on things with that goal in mind.

Allowing them to better judge whats going on around themselves helps keep them from feeling bogged down in the minutia that distracts them from fun times.

It just comes down to why exactly is the individual playing ArmA and what do they expect to get from their experience.

Many players like the idea of realism, but only so much as it helps facilitate the atmosphere of their fantasy.

Most people in history who've had the experience of living through a real shooting war will state that they found it anything but fun or desirable. The wisest of generals have stated that a shooting war is the least desirable of outcomes. It proves to be something that just isn't any fun for all those involved.

So it is ironic that we choose to make a past time out of it in the interests of entertainment. It's good to think about that when we strive to make the most lifelike of war games. The closer we get to making ArmA just like the real thing, the less fun it will inevitably become. It's the natural course of this continuum. One side is concrete realism (Real Life) and on the other, Abstract arcadism (Choatic Fantasy). Neither end of the spectrum extreme is desirable. "F.U.N." is therefore situated someplace inbetween the two. Where exactly it sits, depends on the individuals sense of it. Fortunately ArmA 2 can slide along the continuum to accommodate many different tastes.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Spamurai

[nkenny 1051]

Just to start things off. I've played first person shooters for the better part of my life. I've built shrines to Quake. I've ranted and wailed on Rainbow6 forums way back when on the topic of 3rd person views. I've been around the block.

3rd Person

Recently in Arma2 I've been experimenting with using 3rd person, and quite surprisingly it feels more natural! Arma2 suffers greatly from its poor internal animations, its clunky interface, and sometimes insane user interface. But 3rd person to me; dealt away with many of those issues.

When it is possible to see the soldier, it becomes easier to understand ARMA2s limitations. In fact it seems to me like ARMA2 was developed with third person in mind.

For long range engagements, or just short sharp close range fire, the first person ironsights rule. But for Patrolling? or moving in buildt up areas? Storming madly ahead. 3rd person view has done wonders to me.

-K

[Murklor 10]

3rd Person

Recently in Arma2 I've been experimenting with using 3rd person, and quite surprisingly it feels more natural! Arma2 suffers greatly from its poor internal animations, its clunky interface, and sometimes insane user interface. But 3rd person to me; dealt away with many of those issues

Dont forget less blur so you can actually see things!

I still always play in 3rd person, unless of course its disabled. Personally I think some of the issues can at least be helped by adding some limitations instead of foaming at the mouth and screaming 1st person.

- move it closer just a notch (ie reduce the view)

- limit vertical movement downwards (no point in aiming at the ground anyway, this will help peeking over walls)

- go to 1st person when clicking free-look

- remove the aimpoint in 3rd person regardless of difficulty setting (after all, its hard to see where your aiming when you're outside your head).

Anything else?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Murklor

[Master gamawa 0]

I have made a deal with the devil. The minute I use third person he is going to steal my soul and rape it for the rest of the eternity.

For fucks sake, third person allows you to see around corners and over walls. Don't give me shit about natural awareness.

Even the most aware person CANNOT SEE AROUND A CORNER without actually looking around the corner!

But then that's just me. I cannot stand third person games as I don't get immersed when there is a little asshole running on the screen.

[nkenny 1051]

re: Third person vs First person

IRL

...I don't get stuck in doors when carrying things, unless I'm being silly.

...I can glance around a corner and watch all angles.

...I don't accidentally trip around corners.

Looking over walls or around corners is in all brutal honesty a VERY minor issue. And as Murklor notes the fixes are pathetically easy to implement.

I think more people should try it, if only to appreciate the craft BIS put into it. Who knows you might grow to appreciate the GAME implications of it.

[whisper 0]

Looking over walls or around corners is in all brutal honesty a VERY minor issue.

Having played Planetside quite a lot, I tell you, it's all but a minor issue, it's completely game-changing.

And commander view issues are still not covered

[Mojo 0]

depends on what you want out of the game. at the end of the day it *is* a game, so where do you get your bliss? personally I'm put off by OP's egoview statement because I don't think it has any ego in it, I feel that 3rd has cheat-like qualities --- BUT that is just my opinion. OP is welcome to create a server that is 3rd POV .. The servers I admin will not have this ability.

In the end, this entire thread is interesting because the two sides can never seem to find that common ground to compromise. To me, seeing over a wall/into a building/etc. far out weighs the other lack of peripheral view, so I do the Mr Wobbly-head and look around a lot.

Get track IR - get multiple monitors - get your own server for your own rules.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Thank you for your posts! Thanx for the interesting discussion.

Some are saying that the IRL FOV ("In Real Life Field Of View") is like or even below 90 degree.

They state that with egoshooterview you see what you see in real life.

Again I wish you to comment on this:

While you read this, while you are focussing on the monitor like you do in combat: you notice that your mama (for the youngsters) or your jealous partner is standing right next to you on the left or on the right side. Just draw a line from one shoulder of yours to the other: you notice things that are even beyond this line, especially when they move.

The real FOV therefore is undeniable more than 180 degree.

Try it yourself now! No need to stand up for that ... or even stop reading this!

But let me explain furthermore what I mean with FOV - maybe that explains lots of the discussion.

Evolution - the survival of the fittest - implemented our eyes that way to make us able to detect dangers.

It even implemented it that way (scientists have found out this - but you can easily try yourself) that you don't see colours at the very edges of your FOV.

It works only with black and white.

This has a very good reason: You can easier detect contrast changes = movements.

Things that move right or left at the very edges of the FOV are to be detected for they can be dangerous - in woodlands where our anchestors lived but also at the monitor, when your ma comes up to tell you again and again that you already spent hours at the PC gaming.

In another thread someone stated: Don't make it more complicated than real life. Don't call it real because it's more complicated than real life.

[Murklor 10]

I feel that 3rd has cheat-like qualities

You say cheat-like, I say equal qualities as the AI :D

[An Fiach 10]

pvp should be first person view only. Everyone is limited the same in their FOV keeping things 'fair'. 3rd person view does not fix FOV limitations and you are in reality trying to compensate for a lack of spacial awareness that cannot be experienced through a monitor although the free look ability helps the issue somewhat.

[Herbal Influence 10]

pvp should be first person view only. Everyone is limited the same in their FOV keeping things 'fair'. 3rd person view does not fix FOV limitations and you are in reality trying to compensate for a lack of spacial awareness that cannot be experienced through a monitor although the free look ability helps the issue somewhat.

Everyone can be limited to the same FOV by 3rd view too.

And to me 3rd-view *does* exactly fix the unrealistic limitations of egoshooterview.

The spacial awareness of reality can be experienced by using 3rd view - not by egoshooterview.

I get seasick turning my head round and round and round and round ... and ... round not to talk about the unability to shoot fast while steadily turning and turning, turning, etc. because I have to use my fingers on <alt> and the mouse. Using this IR-head-thing wouldn't change my seasickness ... would only give me the ability to shoot at the same time.

Strange ... I can't understand that it's fun looking through a tunnel into game-reality.

Especially into this with it's outstanding graphics.

[Thirdup 0]

Heh, the topic will be debated by our grand children.

But the bottom line is that we have a choice in ArmA.

If you don't like what you see, change servers.

It's that simple.

I fly helos in 3rd-person. I fly aircraft in 1st-person. I play ground combat in 1st-person. I drive vehicles in 3rd-person. I gun tanks in 1st-person.

To each their own....

[An Fiach 10]

Everyone can be limited to the same FOV by 3rd view too.

And to me 3rd-view *does* exactly fix the unrealistic limitations of egoshooterview.

The spacial awareness of reality can be experienced by using 3rd view - not by egoshooterview.

I get seasick turning my head round and round and round and round ... and ... round not to talk about the unability to shoot fast while steadily turning and turning, turning, etc. because I have to use my fingers on <alt> and the mouse. Using this IR-head-thing wouldn't change my seasickness ... would only give me the ability to shoot at the same time.

Strange ... I can't understand that it's fun looking through a tunnel into game-reality.

Especially into this with it's outstanding graphics.

It doesn't give you spacial awareness at all. You still can't 'feel' that team mate just behind you and that is what spacial awareness is about, sensing your environment, not peripheral vision, which 3rd does not give you and for everyone to experience it you would have to lock everyone into 3rd, the point is for everyone to be equal by default and peeking around corners and over walls is right out. Also, why are you spinning in circles? Scanning the horizon doesn't require you to turn turn turn, 3rd doesn't eliminate the need to bring your weapon to bear on the enemy either. I don't understand what you are saying.

[galzohar 31]

Heh, the topic will be debated by our grand children.

No it won't, because by then Ground Branch would have been long released and showed the world what's realistic and tactical FPS gaming done right really is.

www.blackfootstudios.com/forums

FOV IRL is ~120 degrees, with slight variations between different people. There are easy experiments to test this, such as focusing on a dot right in front of you while having 2 dots "move" slowly from behind you around you towards the center point, and you clicking a button to stop them and checking at what angel the dots stopped.

Regular FOV is ~90 degrees, to compensate for the fact that compressing a 120deg FOV onto a monitor would not allow you to notice details up to a feasible distance. However you can zoom out to a FOV much greater than 90deg (use "zoom out" or "zoom out - toggle" button for this), which is either 120deg or something not far from it. Feel free to measure in game by measuring how many T72s you can get in your FOV at 100m, multiply by the length in meters of a T72, divide result by 100, get the arctan of the result you got and multiply its result by 2. You can do the same with 3rd person to see that your FOV isn't really different, it's just that your view point is moved backwards by a few meters and gets rather unlinked from your chracter.

While 3rd person gives great situational awareness at times, IRL if everyone had as much awareness as 3rd person view provides the world would probably be a MUCH better place (think car accidents for starters).

[Murklor 10]

IRL if everyone had as much awareness as 3rd person view provides the world would probably be a MUCH better place (think car accidents for starters).

Well at least cars have mirrors that actually reflect what you're looking at behind you, unlike a certain game. Real life 3rd person in a car would give you FAR WORSE awareness as you wouldnt see crap behind you.