A.C.E. Advanced Combat Environment Public Release!

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Another bug, more serious this time: I'm now in the situation where most/all eotech/aimpoint equipped rifles show the aiming device when not in sighted view (in the currect session, might correct itself the next time?). One rifle ended up offset from its original position and was not even visible in the sight. In fact it looked like the head was too low, leaving the impression of a tilted sight device.

However, the M4A1 QDS CompM2 (from Vanilla ArmA) does not have this problem.

[1in1class 0]

Daniel @ Jan. 02 2009,16:49)]There's a game logic for enabling wind effects on helicopters.

Why not one for disabling or at least removing the blackouts from the stamina effects? Fully agree with pogoman.

Also someone mentioning a while back that Spec Ops soldiers had more stamina - that sounded a little, dodgy?

PS. Please don't discount opinion on these sort of matters too easily, most of us only comment because we want ACE to become the community standard, and I guess while it's still beta there's a chance to please as much of the realism/tactical crowd as possible.

100% with ya on that. Giveing options makes for better game play, choseing is an good option in game. Should be an option for disabling certain effects like the blackouts and for some the back pack thing. Just an other way for makeing the mod more pleaseing for the realism/tactical people and not just haveing people say Dont do this and Do do that

[Shockley 3]

Stopping in to congratulate the entire ACE Team, I know the amount of hours/months that was put into developing this mod. Had a few min. (actually had me up till 3am) to check it out and you guys done an outstanding job, looking forward to the seeing some of the other "special projects" make it in the next release. I know you guys still have an "ACE" up your sleeve, no pun intended .... lol

@Scuba, Dasquade and Johny - you guys never cease to amaze me.

@Sickboy - Thank you for everything, the project could have never been fully realized without you.

@Rocko and all the scripting/coding guys - simply mind boggling what you all can do. Keep the pink dildo polished!

@ShackTac - Semper Fi bros, Dlsy thanks for all the feedback

and keeping ACE close to you and ShackTac, project would have died in the early stages.

See you all when ArmA 2 is released..

Well got to go, my 2 year old just got into the magic markers and decided to put on her war paint.... sigh*

[Halochief89 0]

A new thing has popped up that bothers me with the ai. I tested the anti armor and tank units abilities on desert island with a m1a2 husk with no ammunition to kill them. The AT gunners would lay down for 2 minutes then begin to crawl in from of the tank, then start running straight away from the tank around 200 meters then stop take a knee and stay there for the rest of the time.

Keep in mind this is with both no waypoints on and the waypoint "destroy" selected on the abrams. I don't know why they do it and its a bit loopy

[Maddmatt 1]

Quote[/b] ]im saying just get rid of the blackouts.

I really doubt these will go away, and tbh, i see no reason for them to go. As matt has put it: if you don't wanna collapse, just adjust your avatar speed.

the reason the blackouts should go away is because they just dont happen, as i have explained twice now. the collapsing part i am fine with, its just the blackouts.

please read posts more carefully.

While blackouts are not 100% realistic, they disorient you. In real life when you get exhausted like that you can become disoriented, which is difficult to simulate in a game. Without blackouts there isn't any 'punishment' for reaching that point after the shaky aim.

Maybe forcing the character to slow down is another possibility. That's up to those who are working on the stamina system.

[scubaman3D 0]

Is the ACE system of exhaustion based on scientific data?

I'm the wrong person to ask about it, but I know there was a great deal of discussion about this internally and the system has undergone many revisions.

If you'd really like to know, I'm sure somebody would be happy to discuss it with you.

[JeRK 0]

Just a little nit-pick: non-A.C.E things don't appear on the editor unit list which stops you from using other mods with it. For instance, you can't add in weapons or units from other mods (though infantry with backpacks on would look stupid if you'd add an ACE one :P) but interestingly groups do appear in the editor.

Other than that this mod is down right incredible. I love pretty much every single little bit about it. (Except the addons thing of course.)

[dslyecxi 23]

Just a little nit-pick: non-A.C.E things don't appear on the editor unit list which stops you from using other mods with it. For instance, you can't add in weapons or units from other mods (though infantry with backpacks on would look stupid if you'd add an ACE one :P) but interestingly groups do appear in the editor.

This can be adjusted. You'll have to look through the thread to find details, or the wiki, or wait for someone else to reply with more details.

As to the stamina, let me repost something I put in another forum regarding it.

Quote[/b] ]Here are some facts to look at, re: stamina.

I just tested it with a default 0311 Marine Rifleman. The guy carries 5.53kg of stuff in his ruck and 9.33kg of inventory items. This does not count the 15-20kg of flak, kevlar, cammies, LBE, etc that he has already.

I started at the bridge west of Corazol, on the northern side. I then jogged along the road, following the NE coast of South Sahrani, to see how long it would take for me to get the blackout indicator (but not actually black out).

I jogged for 2.8 kilometers before I got the first blackout warning, and I suspect I could have run farther if I hadn't ended up at the upward-sloping road curve (which causes more of a stamina penalty due to terrain slope). It took about twelve or more solid minutes of jogging to get that far.

It would have taken me probably less than a minute of resting to be able to go another kilometer or more in the tougher terrain ahead. I didn't bother, as the point was to see how far one could jog with a default loadout before getting a blackout warning.

I think that's more than sufficient. It does make me wonder at what kind of terrain you're trying to move through, or what you're carrying, or what speed you're trying to go, if stamina is beating you down so hard...

[max power 21]

Is the ACE system of exhaustion based on scientific data?

I'm the wrong person to ask about it, but I know there was a great deal of discussion about this internally and the system has undergone many revisions.

If you'd really like to know, I'm sure somebody would be happy to discuss it with you.

My point is that in my experience with consulting on the design of the medical system that I doubt any scientific data was used for the human performance simulation.  If I am correct, the exhaustion sim is a gameplay construct to give meaning to the encumbrance system, and is arbitrary.  Asking people to provide hard data is a little over the top in that regard, considering I think decisions on that system were made by the same process with which people are currently criticizing it.  

I think I could some strong arguments against blackouts from anaerobic exhaustion.. like, when your muscles are tiring they become less efficient, therefore it impossible for you to continue to sprint until you pass out.  Your muscles simply can't handle that load until your body gets low enough blood pressure to cause an unconscious collapse.  Low blood pressure in this case I think would be caused by low blood volume caused by dehydration and vasodilation, and some other things that I don't really understand like muscle-pump inefficiency.  This all happens on marathon time scales, not a quick run down the block with a heavy load.  It is possible that this would happen to an already exhausted and dehydrated soldier, but this assumes that all soldiers in ACE are already dehydrated and exhausted.

I think that instead of insisting that the system can only be improved by real life data, that you should be confident in what it is.  It is an unrealistic gameplay concept that forces players to behave more realistically using artificial punishments.  I think it works okay as it is, but arguments from the gameplay point of view are what you should be listening to, in my opinion, not from first aid or medical manuals. This will allow you to accept or reject them based on their real merits when you compare them to the game play you're trying to achieve, rather than some artificial criteria.

[dslyecxi 23]

I think that instead of insisting that the system can only be improved by real life data, that you should be confident in what it is.  It is an unrealistic gameplay concept that forces players to behave more realistically using artificial punishments.  I think it works okay as it is, but arguments from the gameplay point of view are what you should be listening to, in my opinion, not from first aid or medical manuals.  This will allow you to accept or reject them based on their real merits when you compare them to the game play you're trying to achieve, rather than some artificial criteria.

"The system can only be improved by real life data" is very different from "If you are going to complain about ACE and say that the stamina is unrealistic, please provide a source that details real-world stamina factors in a combat context so that we can compare and contrast".

People are throwing out the R-word but using WAGs to justify it. I'm only asking for real-world data from them, instead of WAGs.

I don't think the stamina system needs any sort of validation from real-world data. It's a gameplay element, and it accomplishes an important task in the mod. It could be tweaked, and it would likewise be swell if there were other options available to the team to make the end state better (ie: force slow walking after becoming exhausted), but as far as I know there are currently limitations on what is and is not possible, and everyone has to work within those confines. That some people are becoming twisted around the axle with respects to "blackout" is a result of them railing against the black-and-white "realism" of it while ignoring the reality inherent in modding for ArmA vs creating a new game from the ground up, without any arbitrary or undesirable limitations.

[Pogoman 1]

i agree the blackouts are a well balanced representation of the soldier getting tired, and that if your sprint for a few hundred meters with all that stuff on your back you will be combat incapable. everyone posting things about how you can run for ages if you moderate your speed and that its perfectly balanced are missing the issue here.

it IS balanced, it IS a good system, the distances soldiers can run before getting tired etc is IRRELEVANT, thats not the issue, so stop going on about getting real world data and crap, although fyi i think the ACE mod have done a very good job of simulating how far a soldier could run.

the only issue here is that the blackouts dont make sense, what i and i think a few other people are trying to say is that keeping everything else the same in game, when you get to the stage when your on the verge of having a blackout, maybe something else should happen like soldier slows down perhaps?

people you dont need scientific data for this. carry some weights and see how far you can sprint, you will slow, stop, collapse before you blackout. if you really push yourself your legs will feel like jelly and yes, you really will need to lie down for a few minutes. this isnt science.

as for mr burn's comment about comparing removing blackouts with the hardcoded animations in arma, i hardly think they're  that difficult to remove/modify :P.

again to reiterrate, no one is saying the stamina system is unrealistic in terms of how far the soldier can run etc before he gets tired. its JUST the blackouts that dont make sense. i'm not saying the soldier should be able to run further before he blacks out. ii'm saying he SHOULDN't black out, there should be some other effect.

i hardly see how this is such a controversial suggestion, its not like im suggesting a massive revamp of the stamina system, just change the blackout effect to something else because it is unrealistic.

btw im not entirely sure about the effects of adrenaline (since i'

ve obviously never used it lol), but it may be that you could blackout before you collapse using it, and you'd definately be able to run further. so that could be a nice addition to the mod although im not sure whether any soldiers would use adrenaline unless wounded hehe.

[max power 21]

@Dsl

I mostly agree with what you are saying.

However, you said something about how people are providing only unsubstantiated claims about what should and should not be possible.  Saying what should and should not be possible is a game play concern, not really a medical accuracy concern.  I didn't say that you were saying that the system can only be improved by real world data, but it does sound like those are the only arguments you would find useful or helpful in the context of the last few pages.  That was my only concern.

edit: What is a WAG anyways?

@Pogoman

On the contrary, doing performance experiments on yourself is precisely science.

[Pogoman 1]

@Pogoman

On the contrary, doing performance experiments on yourself is precisely science.

hehe true, what i meant and probably should of said is that its not such a hard thing to test, and you don't need any groundbreaking scientific data.

[icebreakr 3159]

It is amazing how much armor have AH64s in current beta. I even hit one with 9P133 AT from BRDM, only 2nd shot took it out

Its nice if crashlandings could be scripted though if armor will be lowered...

[an_enlarged_stomach 1]

it seems that MANPADs are a bit overpowered now. All forms of aircraft blow up with just 1 shot, including the A-10.

[scubaman3D 0]

I think I could some strong arguments against blackouts from anaerobic exhaustion.. like, when your muscles are tiring they become less efficient, therefore it impossible for you to continue to sprint until you pass out.

First, I don't agree with you that it is absolutely impossible for an individual to blackout from over exertion.

Even so, I'll concede the point. We still cannot force the player's character to slow down while they are running. If, then, they continue to sprint after the obvious signs of exhaustion are displayed for a long enough time, they will black out.

Its not perfect but what you are describing isn't currently possible to simulate in ArmA (to my knowledge, anyways). If you know of a way to do this, I'm sure we'd be glad to add it in the next update.

We're trying to do the best we can and frankly, for so many people who had so little to do with developing this massive mod, to complain about it is irritating.

I guess thats MY point.

[Jimbo762.au 0]

First off guys absolute awesome mod, this mod has made ArmA what it should have been from the start.

Love the weapons, great range and they are mostly the weapons that will be used in the future with the HK-416 (No one flame me on my opinion as to where the US and other millitaries are going to go with there weapons).

Having said that the fatigue cuts in too fast. Now I understand that there is no way currently to reduce the speed of the runner and that would be the way to do it. However because this is not possible you have done the logical thing by making the player "black out" but the "Black out" comes to quickly. The average grunt in the Australian Army can run 2.4km in about 9:30. Now I don't have scientific data or anything like that, that is just my experience.

The one thing that appears to be over looked is the fact that when you are sprinting on a battle field someone is generally trying there level best to kill you. Now is adds adrenaline and adrenaline generally increases a person performance, or makes crap themselves.

I am not saying remove the blacking out however maybe get rid of the lying down or increase the distance / time it takes to have it kick in.

Oh and who ever said they don't think they someone could pass out from exhaustion, go put 40kg on your back and walk 11 min kms ever couple of hours have a break for 1h after sprinting for about 400m keep that going around 24h then try digging pits for a while, do that all with no sleep then tell everyone that people don't pass out from exhaustion.

[SoopSandwich 0]

I just wanted to THANK the ACE mod team! I think it is great and has got me playing Arma again.

Just one question:  I don't want to sound like a stupid American, but could there be an option to displays weights in pounds instead of Kilograms.  I just can't (quickly) comprehend how much I'm carrying using the Kilograms.  (I know a very small detail and probably not worth your time)  Thanks again for the great mod!

THANKS gsleighter that helps out a lot and easier than I thought. Pounds are basically double to a Kilogram......

[Halochief89 0]

I just wanted to THANK the ACE mod team! I think it is great and has got me playing Arma again.

Just one question:  I don't want to sound like a stupid American, but could there be an option to displays weights in pounds instead of Kilograms.  I just can't (quickly) comprehend how much I'm carrying using the Kilograms.  (I know a very small detail and probably not worth your time)  Thanks again for the great mod!

That remark is really offensive to me soop.

And not to waste post space, About the exhaustion system as repeated over and over again you guys also have to realize that your soldier is also carrying his body armor and helmet which also adds weight.

[gsleighter 0]

Kilos to pounds is easier than you think. Just multiply by 2.2 and you've got it. So,

20kg - 44lbs

10kg - 22lbs

15kg - 31lbs

7.2kg - ~16lbs

23.3kg - ~50lbs

It's easy math, and you can just ballpark it most of the time anyway.

Hope this helps.

-Gabe-

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Even so, I'll concede the point. We still cannot force the player's character to slow down while they are running. If, then, they continue to sprint after the obvious signs of exhaustion are displayed for a long enough time, they will black out.

Its not perfect but what you are describing isn't currently possible to simulate in ArmA (to my knowledge, anyways). If you know of a way to do this, I'm sure we'd be glad to add it in the next update.

We're trying to do the best we can and frankly, for so many people who had so little to do with developing this massive mod, to complain about it is irritating.

I guess thats MY point.

I'm genuinely sorry if my contributions (or copmplaints) on the subject are seen as an irritation. Its difficult to know from this end how much room you guys have to move on some of these issues. If there is no known way of slowing a player then what we have is what we get. The current method is not unbalanced in a gameplay sense. I supose that ACE does such a graet job of adding layers or realism to what is already one of the most realistic games ever released that I felt the back outs a little .....dare I say it.....clunky. None of this however will stop me appreciating the rest ACE has to offer.

[mchide 0]

For all of you who are complaining...if you dont like it, there is an ansfer : Dont use it. Guess what its a Mod and not game patch.

MP testing

- Stamina effects, are ok. If player uses head instead of WW key he will not colapse.

- RPGs + RPO i think needs a tweak... its allmost impossible to hit anithing beyond 100m rockets  simply fall to fast... its not like that in RL

- Insurgents should have one bomber

- Sound of AH64 is way to laud inside and outside "im not a pilot... so i dont know details, but when i was in MH6 and AH64 was near me i could not hear my engine  "

- AceGameLogic... Carry-how the hell should i make it worknig

- aha... AK weapons have "eye" point to far back...or optic could be tweaked little bit i think. Now when you zoom you cant she sheet. My 2 cents: When i force optic in RL im focused on riffle direction and not on surrounding... if i want to watch around i dont look thrue optic.

click for preview

This is all i could think of right now...

Anyway as complet mod runs fast and smoth, no CTDs ... and thinks like that.

[Halochief89 0]

For all of you who are complaining...if you dont like it, there is an ansfer : Dont use it. Guess what its a Mod and not game patch.

MP testing

- Stamina effects, are ok. If player uses head instead of WW key he will not colapse.

- RPGs + RPO i think needs a tweak... its allmost impossible to hit anithing beyond 100m rockets  simply fall to fast... its not like that in RL

- Insurgents should have one bomber

- Sound of AH64 is way to laud inside and outside "im not a pilot... so i dont know details, but when i was in MH6 and AH64 was near me i could not hear my engine  "

- AceGameLogic... Carry-how the hell should i make it worknig

- aha... AK weapons have "eye" point to far back...or optic could be tweaked little bit i think. Now when you zoom you cant she sheet. My 2 cents: When i force optic in RL im focused on riffle direction and not on surrounding... if i want to watch around i dont look thrue optic.

This is all i could think of right now...

Anyway as complet mod runs fast and smoth, no CTDs ... and thinks like that.

Theres a thing called holding the right mouse button to zoom in even more.

[Blackbuck 9]

I'm not sure if it's been covered or not so if it has sorry.

If you pack more than one M72 rocket you don't carry the extra weight, lovely as that is for me it's still a bug I guess.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

- RPGs + RPO i think needs a tweak... its allmost impossible to hit anithing beyond 100m rockets  simply fall to fast... its not like that in RL

Have you adjusted the sights with the up and down arrow/cursor keys? Most of the AT weapon sights can be adjusted out beyond 200m, and IIRC the RPO can be adjusted quite a bit further.

I'm usually able to hit targets quite reliably out to at least 300m once the sights are set up properly.