RECOILS 1.08 vs 1.12

[NoRailgunner 0]

comparing full international patch with latest beta patch...

Some people can't wait for next full international patch. As far as I know release in may is possible.

[PuFu 4600]

No one posted the exact same words, yeah. But it is the exact same message.

This is my opinion, and by no means i have to "justify myself to people like you" (whatever that means to you). Anyway, no need to take is personal as it was not intended to be one.

But my honest opinion that this discussion will go no where. The recoils have been reported in the feedback thread multiple times as a no-go by ones, and as a "welldone BIS, glad you fixed those" by others.

And if you think that the recoils in 1.12 is very close to RL (mind you i have fired the Russian ak74 and the ak47 AKM version meself, and i had a different impression than you) why do you think MODs that strive some realism already changed that? The change was based on persons that know a little bit more than you and me about guns, and that is not from youtube videos.

[stryker555 0]

Version 1.12b is superior to 1.08, no question. The performance increases and fixes make Arma much more playable. For instance I have completed all the single missions in 1.12b when in version 1.08 I couldnt have bothered and just focused on multiplayer games instead. The only thing I dont like in 1.12b is the POV they need to bring it back to like what it was before.

I am now going to complete the singleplayer campaign, but I think it best to wait on the full 1.12 or whatever patch before I do so. As for the recoil I find it much much better combined with the increased frame rates in 1.12b compared to 1.08. The game is much more better in my opinion and i cant wait for the full patch.

[Heatseeker 0]

Imo the recoils in 1.12 feel better than 1.08's hardcore exageration (aka musket style), my problem is that the rounds seem to travel at a much slower speed and i find it harder to lead distant targets now. The efective range of small caliber rounds seems to have decreased too (wich is good).

Maybe the M240 and PKM should kick back some more but overall 1.12 plays better, the new FOV sucks though, dunno why they fixed it since it wasnt broken.

[mr.g-c 6]

....Maybe the M240 and PKM should kick back some more....

My opinion: M240 yes, but PK no.

and

Seems that at least the barrel of the PK(M) doesn't climb at all (maybe because of its to heavy?)

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, no need to take is personal as it was not intended to be one.

Ok mate, thats good to hear. Its sometime hard to distinguish how a certain comment was meant, especially when english is not my native language.

Quote[/b] ]And if you think that the recoils in 1.12 is very close to RL....

No they are of course not, but i've written that before. They re in terms of this strange up- and down movement after a shot and the barrel-climb much nearer to Real-life THAN with 1.08.

Quote[/b] ]MODs that strive some realism already changed that? The change was based on persons that know a little bit more than you and me about guns, and that is not from youtube videos.

Yeahh im fully aware of that. Before 1.09 i always used the Q1194s Recoils and ROF mod, because this was the mod who disabled this unrealistic up - and down movement as well as the unrealistic barrel-climb (at certain weapons).

I'll just wait for the ACE mod, and then i'll be fully satisfied i guess.

Best Regards, Christian

[wamingo 1]

We're only talking about the bounce right?

I voted 1.12 but I'm kind of in between and depends on the weapon and such.

1.08 a bit too slow and a bit crazy..

1.12 a bit too fast and only upwards.

But I have no idea whether a compromise would be better, or more realistic.

However when you start talking about realism I don't think you can only change the bounce of the guns...

Because recoil is several things

Like, to what extent should the player have to combat the recoil?

At this time you only have to fight the upwards kick in burst and auto fire - and of course the constant instability.

But shouldn't the recoil really have some horizontal force as well, to be properly realistic? A decent caliber rifle seems to knock people about pretty significantly, mostly forcing the weapon rightways.

Also, shouldn't your head really be kicked backwards? Have a look at any sniper video and you see a huge kick to the guys shoulder and their head and face follows, but not very much movement on the barrel, at least not in prone position.

In arma only your shoulder is forced back.

It's a combination of things that might make it realistic or fun.

[sdoc 0]

shouldn't the M249 have much less recoil than an M16/M4? It fires the same ammunition (or does it use hi pressure rounds?) and is considerably heavyer > more inertia.

a good implementation could be much more weapon sway, while standing, less turning speed, but hardly any recoil.

Maybe we got someone here with first hand experience.

btw, is there a RPK74 in standard arma? i can't remember anymore?

[twisted 128]

....Maybe the M240 and PKM should kick back some more....

My opinion: M240 yes, but PK no.

and

Seems that at least the barrel of the PK(M) doesn't climb at all (maybe because of its to heavy?)

mate that barrel is all over the place - and converted into arma view you'd be rocking madly.

which is great and something that i'd welcome over the too little recoil many of the weapons get now.

hell anyone who'd stand up with such a heavy machinegun in a firefight doesn't know the fucntion of such a weapon and probably thinks they're a red rambo or something.

[max power 21]

I've seen videos of SAS and Canadian soldiers using gpmgs in the kneeling or standing position, firing from the hip. I think that they use them for suppression in such a way.

[mr.g-c 6]

....Maybe the M240 and PKM should kick back some more....

My opinion: M240 yes, but PK no.

and

Seems that at least the barrel of the PK(M) doesn't climb at all (maybe because of its to heavy?)

mate that barrel is all over the place - and converted into arma view you'd be rocking madly.

I saw simmilar videos (can't find them now, though) from different angles (one from behind wih tracer ammo) and for suppressive fire Its more accurate than enough. It s a machinegun, not a sniper-rifle.

Quote[/b] ]

hell anyone who'd stand up with such a heavy machinegun in a firefight doesn't know the fucntion of such a weapon and probably thinks they're a red rambo or something.

You don't seems to have very much experience/knowledge about machinegunners.

First, its not a heavy machinegun - its a light Machinegun! And i can't see any barrel climb where i would say its bad to do its job - suppressive fire with it.

Second, Machinegunners doesn't always have the perfect flat floor under them for a nice prone and firing.

Ever thought what happens in City-Fights to them?

Never saw Videos from WW2? They shot in Fact very often from standing or kneeling - where ever they have to suppress the enemy.

Even though i would also rather go prone for my MG to fire (when its possible), the fact that it is possible to do the same also from kneeling/standing without much loss in effectiveness, should makes such a discussion superfluous.

Best Regards, Christian

[Raidar 1]

I shot aprox. 850 rounds with the stgw90 (sig550 version of swiss army) in my training as a "Aufklärer", i was one of the best in shooting at the end of training and we had allso an introduction to a 4x scope. It's not an m16 or an ak74 but i think it's the same with every weapon. If you are trained, got a good stance and know your weapon, you can control the recoil. You don't even have to be a heavy guy to deal the recoil and you are playing expirienced soldiers in this game.

It's not to difficult to contoll a burst without a muzzle climb. I got no fullauto experience and i haven't shot any other weapons. So i don't talk about this.

I'n my opinion, 1.12 it's pretty good. There's e recoil that makes you able to place fast shots which a little correction with the mouse.

The first part with walking is good, and the last two can't even handle the ricoil while standing. I've got more movies shooting with a scope. In these the rifle moves more, because of relaxed precision shooting and not controlling the recoil for fast targeting and shooting.

Greets Ra!ar

[sic-disaster 311]

I prefer the newer recoil actually.

The recoil in 1.08 seemed way overdone, perhaps it was due to my machine but in real life i did not experience THAT much recoil.

Recoil in later beta patches seem much more close to real life.

Call it 'not hardcore' if you want but it just plain feels and plays better, and more realistic to me.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I way prefer the 1.12, "hardcore" or not. Making stuff harder to use doesn't automatically make it more realistic. Never fired 5.56, but here we had some difficulty controlling recoils on 7.62 using auto. Should try dual wield AG-3s someday on full auto

And this is how I felt the 1.08 was; exaggerated and highly unpredictable. With 1.12 there is far less recoil, which I expect to be the case with 5.56 rounds.

Agree with the posting of M249 SAW having less recoil than regular M16, but at the cost of having much greater weapons sway at up stances. Sounds very reasonable to me.

[frederf 0]

As far as I'm concerned, the 1.12 recoils are far too twitchy

and robotic, while the 1.08 ones were over-exaggerated and

lethargic. Neither is particularly "realistic" IMO.

That sentiment makes sense and seems rather sane to me.

This may be an unpopular sentiment but my ideal weapon handling simulation would produce realistic results primarily and feel and hard number recreation as secondary. Say that ArmA changed their recoil so 10/10 military advisers agreed it was the best simulation but we ended up killing enemy in game with it at a rate of 300% what a real soldier would do in an actual combat scenario.

I would consider that system a failure since it produced wildly unrealistic results. Could anyone familiar with recoil and weapon handling comment on the overall effectiveness of the ArmA system(s)? Something like "ArmA recoils are too harsh; in real life I have much tighter groupings and can acquire targets much more quickly." or "ArmA recoils are too lax; in real life I have a much wider spread and take longer to acquire targets." This leaves out the middleman of the recoil feel, direction, and timing for a second to focus on what really matters... the end result.

[Second 0]

I know guys who do military version of practical shooting and could say that they are whole different beasts when comparing to average soldier who's weapon handling experience probably is much less in time, drill and bullets shot. Quite honestly i found it hard to believe how well they handle their guns.

Btw. I believe he hit all his targets with most of his bullets. And yes he fired in semi fire, i think i've seen other videos of him and he was as fast in them. Don't know is that AR rifle or something else. 5.56mm definedly.

And that is how pistol should be handled

... What is the middle road to be taken? Hard to say.

[wamingo 1]

..

Let's see how he does when those targets starts shooting back.

[celery 8]

Let's see how he does when those targets starts shooting back.

What is that supposed to prove? That he's actually a noob at guns?

[Col. Faulkner 0]

...Quite honestly i found it hard to believe how well they handle their guns...

Best save that for "Rainbow Six" games, I think. "Ding

Chavez" would pwn this guy, I bet!

[Second 0]

...Quite honestly i found it hard to believe how well they handle their guns...

Best save that for "Rainbow Six" games, I think. "Ding

Chavez" would pwn this guy, I bet!

Well yeah

My whole team was cut down several times by one terrorist with AK or submachinegun in about half second, all kills being head shots. I hated the game because of that.

Wamingo: Sure, but first, target should have enough time to rise his gun and aim it... And besides what i was after was skill in weapon handling and forexample controlling recoil. Like Frederf said there are lots of aspects in this too, to some ArmA 1.08 has horrible recoil, to some it seems to be fine (or even mild). But which is healthy middleroad in this?

[ShrubMiK 0]

One thing that always seems to get forgotten in recoil discussions...an experienced shooter may be compensating for any recoil, so just looking at a video may not give the full picture of what the shooter is experiencing and having to deal with.

(Anyone got any videos of guns mounted on freely moving swivelling attachments being fired? That would be more definitive.)

Barrel movement up, down, or sideways may also not be due to an up/down/sideways force being applied to the barrel, but the effect of the gun recoiling straight backwards and pivoting on the firers shoulder...again depending on how the gun is being held, how braced the firer is, etc.

And we have to ask another question: do we want the game to simulate the pure recoil effects, and rely on the gamer to compensate for them by moving mouse? Or do we want the game to simply model the player as being an experienced shooter and hide any need for compensation from the player? Either is a valid thing to do, depending on what the game is trying to achieve. Personally I prefer ArmA to be more of a simulation, so if real-life guns require practice and skill to compensate for recoil effects I would rather see the game demand that I practice and learn to oercome a similar level of difficulty. That's just my opinion.

Now maybe modern weapons really do have minimal recoil as is often claimed...I don't know, but I'm sceptical. I've only fired one real gun...it was a .50 pistol of some description (Colt Python? was almost 20 years ago) and I was unprepared for the amount of recoil, so yes the barrel did end up pointing way up into the air for me. Admittedly that's quite a big gun for a small boy

[Beagle 684]

The recoil in 1.12 ist much more what I'am used to from the range. I have done thousands of rounds with MG3, G3, P1, Vektor SP1, S&W 686, SigSauer P225, M96/38 6,5x55, rifles and sotguns ranging from .300Mag to 12x76Te recoil action in 1.08 was plain wrong...like in slow motion with exegerated weapon motion.

[wamingo 1]

Let's see how he does when those targets starts shooting back.

What is that supposed to prove? That he's actually a noob at guns?

I'm just wondering how relevant a video of an olympic alpine ski shooter who practices 8 hours a day and only eats brocoli is to how recoil is handled in arma.

[Second 0]

Let's see how he does when those targets starts shooting back.

What is that supposed to prove? That he's actually a noob at guns?

I'm just wondering how relevant a video of an olympic alpine ski shooter who practices 8 hours a day and only eats brocoli is to how recoil is handled in arma.

Well in that way that we can have more tranined soldiers on marksmanship (also handling recoil) and then less trained soldiers, and then guys and gals who haven't ever even touched a gun with their hand.

Also, like it has been said: We should find The Golden Middle Road as ArmA has just one recoil setting for each stance. If one says that 1.08 had horrible recoil and another says that it's too mild... Both claims to be experienced shooters... Then what is the right recoil setting then?

[SaBrE_UK 0]

The recoil system seems flawed to me anyway; the arms move rather than the whole upper body; the front end of the rifle doesn't climb as it should, instead the whole gun seems to "rotate" on an axis. I know it's kind of hard to simulate in a game, but compare ArmA to YouTube videos of people firing rifles. The system needs a small overhaul.

[DVD 0]

The improvements on recoil were right.

Who thinks, modern rifles have a recoil like WW2 weapons is wrong.

But, compare to OFP, BI has still a long way to go, and i hope ARMA2 will have a recoil simulation like in the good old days of OFP.

youtube clip ^^