Tanks - Missile flight profiles and weapon improvements

[the_one_and_only_Venator 163]

3 hours ago, oukej said:

Can you please verify that you're using the dev-branch?
It's been broken by the 1.82 update, however on dev-branch it should be ok. The upcoming hotfix should be solving it on main branch.

Thanks, I forgot to say I'm using stable branch.

[hcpookie 3770]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:33 PM, oukej said:

Currently the cruise and LOAL distance modes are not utilized by any vanilla weapon.

 

Does that mean that Cruise mode is only a placeholder and not yet implemented, or does it mean that a config simply needs to be created?

[Yoshi_E 179]

@oukej could you take a look at this?

 

According to the Wiki - Data Link allows you to target and "engage these targets with lock-after-launch ammo." Right now the only ammo with autoSeekTarget = 1 are gun launched missiles (e.g. Rhino ATGM or M4 Guided rounds).

 

Now first of all that does not seem to be correct. While it prevents a player from doing so, an AI is able of engaging any target shared via Data Link,  if the ammo allows it or not.

Issue to that here: https://feedback.bistudio.com/T128743

 

Now to my question, should players not also be able to do this? Shouldn't be shooting ARH missiles on long range without using your own radar be possible?

A modern jet uses often off location information (e.g ground radar or AWACS) for  inertial guidance and/or "mid-course updates" before that ARH on the missile takes over on terminal approach.

[oukej 2910]

9 hours ago, Yoshi_E said:

@oukejNow to my question, should players not also be able to do this? Shouldn't be shooting ARH missiles on long range without using your own radar be possible?

It's possible via https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Missile_flight_profiles#LoalDistance and it's coming to ARH missiles (except of Zephyr) and to be tested on dev-branch. Might have been a telepathy or something - commited that just yesterday :D

Just to manage expectations - what's coming is a "maddog" launch - i.e. a "dumb-fired" missile will find a target on its own and a missile knows no friendlies. Mid-course updates won't be possible.

[dragon01 902]

@oukej, if you're looking at the missile configs, could you try adding ripple fire to heavy rocket pods (Tratnyr and Shreiker)? Now that dispersion is a thing, it'd be really nice to be able to fire 2-3 rockets from a single pod per trigger pull. Right now one has to tap the trigger, which isn't very comfortable.

 

Looking forward to trying out maddog launches with AIM-120. :) 

[a_killer_wombat 120]

Is it me or are the AP Shrieker rockets too weak against armour? They use HEAT sub-munitions now which is nice but with the recent changes to rocket dispersion, even taking out a stationary IFV is harder than it should be. A standard IFV seems to require around 3-4 direct hits to k-kill whereas an MBT requires >7 direct hits (discounting hits soaked up by ERA). That may not sound a lot at first but bearing in mind that you will likely miss many of the rockets you fire even at close range due to the significant rocket dispersion and pilot error, and then couple that with the fact that you only get 7 rockets per rocket pod... 

 

I'm guessing the AP Shrieker rockets are loosely based on the real-life M247 Hydra 70 rockets and I can't easily find what the real-life effectiveness of those rockets were on armour but from a gameplay perspective, the current AP rockets are too weak to be effective against armour (IFV/MBT) and the HE Shrieker rockets seem to be just as effective against anything thin skinned (MRAP/truck/car) which makes the AP rockets kind of redundant since the HE rockets can be used against infantry as well. I think it would be an improvement to increase the damage a single AP rocket can deal against armour and thus make them a more viable weapon.

 

EDIT: I've not yet tested the CSAT equivalent,  AP Tratnyr rockets, but I'm guessing they suffer the same issue (the AP Tatnyr rocket pods hold 20 rockets instead but that's balanced out by a much greater dispersion). I also agree with the above post about inclusion of ripple fire by holding done trigger similar to DAR and Skyfire.

[dragon01 902]

Do note that 70mm is not much for a HEAT warhead - it's less than an RPG-7 (which is 93mm), and you've only got a single warhead in there. It might be that HE is currently too effective against MRAPs and such (a 70mm HE isn't a whole lot of explosive, either, about 1-2kg). 70mm AP should be useful for killing things like MRAPs and disabling (not blowing up) IFVs. S-8KOM, the real equivalent of Tratnyr-AP, has armor penetration of around 400mm RHA (curiously, the tandem HEAT variant, S-8T, has the same penetration listed, though it might be after ERA). Hydra 70, due to smaller diameter, is probably slightly worse, but makes up for it with better accuracy. AP rockets are not for big game hunting, but rather for destroying lightly armored targets and damaging buildings. HE is for actual softskins and anti-infantry work.

[DennyMala 10]

I always tried to make use of the rockets using the CAS planes but to little or no avail. I would greatly prefer some other weapons added intstad of those to the default loadout. It would probably make more sense too since the 30mm cannon is probably more useful on those kind of targets and surely more likely to hit.

[a_killer_wombat 120]

14 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Do note that 70mm is not much for a HEAT warhead - it's less than an RPG-7 (which is 93mm), and you've only got a single warhead in there. It might be that HE is currently too effective against MRAPs and such (a 70mm HE isn't a whole lot of explosive, either, about 1-2kg). 70mm AP should be useful for killing things like MRAPs and disabling (not blowing up) IFVs. S-8KOM, the real equivalent of Tratnyr-AP, has armor penetration of around 400mm RHA (curiously, the tandem HEAT variant, S-8T, has the same penetration listed, though it might be after ERA). Hydra 70, due to smaller diameter, is probably slightly worse, but makes up for it with better accuracy. AP rockets are not for big game hunting, but rather for destroying lightly armored targets and damaging buildings. HE is for actual softskins and anti-infantry work.

 

I'm guessing the effectiveness of the M247 Hydra 70 (70mm HEAT warhead) must be close if not more than an M72 LAW warhead which is 66mm HEAT and the LAW is capable of penetrating 200mm of RHA which is enough to penetrate the top/roof armour of modern MBTs. You can argue that it is not only a matter of penetration but also what the damage potential is of the penetrating jet and the resulting armour spalling/fragmentation. Rightly or wrongly, the HE Shrieker and Tratnyr rockets seem to do the same if not more damage to buildings and structures when compared to their AP rocket equivalents which leaves the AP rockets without a useful application. HE rockets can also just as easily disable an APC/IFV via mobility or firepower kill and, thanks to the superior splash damage, you don't even have to rely on direct hits.

 

Honestly, I personally would like to see AP rockets k-kill APCs/IFVs in 1-2 hits and k-kill MBTs in 2-3 (assuming each hit actually manages to penetrate through the armour). One AP Shrieker/Tratnyr rocket hitting an MBT on its roof (high angle dive) should be roughly equivalent to an infantryman carried LAT hitting an MBT on its roof, i.e. it should be pretty devastating.

[SuicideKing 233]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:52 AM, oukej said:

Just to manage expectations - what's coming is a "maddog" launch - i.e. a "dumb-fired" missile will find a target on its own and a missile knows no friendlies. Mid-course updates won't be possible.

So does this only work if there's at least 1 (friendly) radar painting the target? Otherwise it would seem to conflict with "activeSensorAlwaysOn" parameter that was added a while back?

 

On 6/13/2018 at 10:26 AM, dragon01 said:

if you're looking at the missile configs

Laser seeker for the Macer please :P At least the Macer-II and CSAT/AAF equivalents...

 

p.s. Thanks for the ARMs! :D

[Yoshi_E 179]

28 minutes ago, SuicideKing said:

So does this only work if there's at least 1 (friendly) radar painting the target? Otherwise it would seem to conflict with "activeSensorAlwaysOn" parameter that was added a while back?

 

ARH missile have their own radar sensor, completely independent from the vehicle, without it they would never be able to hit a target.

So once the radar of the missile itself, gets a target insight, it will lock onto it, and attempt to hit it. No additional radar / data link is needed for that.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

So @oukej and @nodunit  what are the chances we'll see VLS cruise missiles being fired from the USS Liberty with data link and laser lock capability so that it can provide long range fire support like the Rhino ATGM?

 

Would also be nice if we could see a new magazine type for the Sandstorm and MRL that has laser and data link as well.  Gives scenario designers more interesting fire support options. :)

 

 

 

 

[SuicideKing 233]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:05 AM, Imperator[TFD] said:

Would also be nice if we could see a new magazine type for the Sandstorm and MRL that has laser and data link as well.  Gives scenario designers more interesting fire support options. :)

I'm going to have a field day if those two vehicles get datalink support... :D

[snoops_213 75]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:05 AM, Imperator[TFD] said:

So @oukej and @nodunit  what are the chances we'll see VLS cruise missiles being fired from the USS Liberty with data link and laser lock capability so that it can provide long range fire support like the Rhino ATGM?

 

Would also be nice if we could see a new magazine type for the Sandstorm and MRL that has laser and data link as well.  Gives scenario designers more interesting fire support options. :)

-snip-

 

 

 

Great idea but AI wont use it without scripts because it won't shoot over terrain without them or player input. If BIS gave use the ability to make certain weapons use a firing algorithm that didn't take terrain into account this would be great, as well as data linked artillery units( which do work out to 16km+ with no terrain between them and the targets atm). If this was done then naval gun fire support would be on the cards to. 

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

13 hours ago, snoops_213 said:

Great idea but AI wont use it without scripts because it won't shoot over terrain without them or player input. If BIS gave use the ability to make certain weapons use a firing algorithm that didn't take terrain into account this would be great, as well as data linked artillery units( which do work out to 16km+ with no terrain between them and the targets atm). If this was done then naval gun fire support would be on the cards to. 

There are other features AI can't use already.  Why let that be a barrier to innovation & implementation?

[SuicideKing 233]

doArtilleryFire also exists though, so it could work with LOAL functionality in the case of the AI. Presumably Sh_155mm_AMOS_guided works this way as well (used with the M4 Scorcher).

[jone_kone 158]

@oukej

 

Any chance for a SACLOS magazine of the Titan AT missile (eg. Titan_AP_SACLOS)? Basically it could be a direct copy of the Titan AP missile config wise but would only need a HEAT warhead? 

 

Why?

 

- Current Titan AT fire and forget missile combined with thermal view can be a bit OP in lots of MP scenarios and thus hard to balance.
- Would promote player skill and deploying smoke would be a valid tactic for tankers against human players.
- Would give blufor a more TOW-like weapon.
- Exposes the gunner for the duration of the flight thus requiring better tactics and gunner cannot just spam missiles.
- As a editor only available magazine it wouldn´t affect any legacy mission or loadout.

 

[D_Donskoy 50]

On ‎15‎.‎06‎.‎2018 at 3:05 AM, Imperator[TFD] said:

So @oukej and @nodunit  what are the chances we'll see VLS cruise missiles being fired from the USS Liberty with data link and laser lock capability so that it can provide long range fire support like the Rhino ATGM?

 

Would also be nice if we could see a new magazine type for the Sandstorm and MRL that has laser and data link as well.  Gives scenario designers more interesting fire support options. :)

 

 

 

 

What kind of ammunition is this? Where to get them? :)

[snoops_213 75]

18 hours ago, D_Donskoy said:

What kind of ammunition is this? Where to get them? :)

It looks like a LG mlrs rocket with the cruise mode set, probably a custom missile for testing. The LG mlrs has been implemented not sure about flight profile for it though.

@oukej  Not sure if this is intentional but the AR-2 doesn't see it's own laser designator therefore it doesn't report it via data link.

[Pinkie1997 15]

On ‎03‎.‎07‎.‎2018 at 3:33 PM, snoops_213 said:

It looks like a LG mlrs rocket with the cruise mode set, probably a custom missile for testing. The LG mlrs has been implemented not sure about flight profile for it though.

@oukej  Not sure if this is intentional but the AR-2 doesn't see it's own laser designator therefore it doesn't report it via data link.

they are Talking About the arm Missiles, they fire and find a target with an active Radar, ist on devbranch

[SuicideKing 233]

4 hours ago, Pinkie1997 said:

they are Talking About the arm Missiles, they fire and find a target with an active Radar, ist on devbranch

No, they're talking about the laser guided missiles with cruise mode set. Oukej's gif there doesn't have anything to do with ARMs. ARMs have been on dev for a couple of weeks now, and are now on RC.

[nmdanny 22]

Suggestion: Interception of missiles & precision guided bombs.

If there's a way to make the game treat those munitions like airplanes by making them destructible and targetable, then I figure existing SAMs could intercept them with the existing anti-air algorithms. After all, most guided munitions in the game fly at a subsonic speed, in a pretty stable and predictable pattern - similar to planes. (Of course, I may be wrong - I don't know much about the Arma engine.)

 

This would add a lot of depth to the game and give more purpose to many of the Jets DLC & Encore assets (especially the SAM units & cruise missiles).

Air defense would be more interesting - do you spend all your missiles on enemy planes, or do you conserve some in order to intercept missiles/bombs coming towards you or friendly units?

Attacking highly defended airbases/carriers would be trickier - a lone cruise missile or a few MLRS rockets would be easily intercepted by one of the many AA units that are stationed there, so you'd need to coordinate bigger salvos of missiles coming from many directions in order to overwhelm their air defense network.

 

On a similar note, what if you could control cruise missiles with the UAV interface? That would be really cool, especially if it'd be possible to intercept them. You'd have to plot waypoints that utilize the terrain in order to hide from radars, time the arrival of multiple missiles, or control a missile directly.

[oukej 2910]

On 7/24/2018 at 11:55 PM, nmdanny said:

Suggestion: Interception of missiles & precision guided bombs.

Not planned as a sandbox feature, we're sorry. (We've actually considered the risk of releasing these defenses vs. not having an option to use them against missiles.)
 

[SuicideKing 233]

@oukej the SAMs have a bit of an issue - sometimes the launcher tubes can be almost horizontal at launch, causing the missile to hit the ground in front of it.

 

 

Not sure how much the missile's flight profile can be adjusted to fix this. Maybe a good idea to fix the minimum elevation angle on the launcher instead?

[jone_kone 158]

On 8/29/2018 at 3:31 AM, SuicideKing said:

@oukej the SAMs have a bit of an issue - sometimes the launcher tubes can be almost horizontal at launch, causing the missile to hit the ground in front of it.

 

 

Not sure how much the missile's flight profile can be adjusted to fix this. Maybe a good idea to fix the minimum elevation angle on the launcher instead?

 

+1, Have had incidents where it has taken out another asset or infantry that is close by.