Removal of the 2D editor - why - options are good, workflow slowdown for modders

[tortuosit 486]

Hi guys,

 

not sure if/where it has been discussed. I feel uncomfortable with the removal of the 2D editor. I understand, the reason may be incompatible saved missions?

 

Problem is, 3D editor is way slower in a) first loading  and B] return from mission back to editor.

With the 2D editor modding/scripting is IMO faster. I start editor faster, make code changes outside of ArmA, then start the mission preview from there to check how things work out, restart mission or go back to editor, go outside of ArmA to make code changes, go back into ArmA, preview Mission again and so on and so forth. 3D editor is a brake here!

 

Solution:

Offer 2D editor, maybe opt-in via a reg key... maybe just don't offer mission saving there (I'm not a mission maker, do not need it)... whatever. But it's a developed tool which works, why get rid of it.

 

Thx

[Belbo 462]

Wait wait wait...

3D editor is great and all. But since when is the 2D editor meant to be scrapped? I thought the editors were supposed to complement each other.

[killzone_kid 1331]

Wait wait wait...

3D editor is great and all. But since when is the 2D editor meant to be scrapped?

Since 3d editor was announced.

[chrisb 196]

It would be very sad to see the 2d editor go, if that is the case. But playing A2 much more than A3, means it won't effect me much. But it will steer me even more away from A3.

Such a shame if that is the case.

[Belbo 462]

Since 3d editor was announced.

Bummer.

[somesangheili 111]

It says on dev branch that 2D will be removed with Apex

[giallustio 770]

Oh god, please no!

[twisted 128]

well, when in Eden editor pushing M key or clicking the map icon goes into 2d flat view. functionality is the same then?

 

I dont notice such a delay betwen switching back to 3d comapred to 2d. maybe a second more?

 

but agree that starting 3d editor up is quite slower. especially on placing 1st unit on the map. afterwards its not much different and the loss in time is more than made up for in accuracy of visual placement, etc.

[Belbo 462]

well, when in Eden editor pushing M key or clicking the map icon goes into 2d flat view. functionality is the same then?

Ah... it sounded as if the possibility to edit in 2D would go completely.

[soapsurfer 12]

There's not one thing that comes to my mind which can be done faster in 2D editor. 3D Editor has way more possibilites and tools.

Also I don't notice any longer loading times? Maybe the initial start up is slower but you just start this thing once every session and we are talking about seconds here.

From a developer perspective I'd say maintaining two editors instead of just one is much more work with little to no positive effect. So why keep it?

[killzone_kid 1331]

Advantages of 2d editor are obvious when you need a quick testing environment where you want quickly try things. It starts faster and you are doubleclick away from preview. It is also fast to return back and restart preview. 3d editor is not suited for this. I would like to have an option to be able to quick test something.

[cosmic10r 2331]

Oh god, please no!

Said the same thing when it was announced :(

[EO 11277]

Goodbye to you my trusted friend...... :cry2:  

 

[chortles 263]

TL;DR: "the basic goal is to only have one tool to support and maintain, and only one type of mission export (saving the mission and sharing it)."

[lexx 1391]

I've used both editors a lot by now and it doesn't *feel* like the 3d editor needs more time to load. Technically the game has to load the 3d assets already on startup... But it would need to anyway if you preview a mission.

 

By now the 3d editor has so many awesome features, I can't imagine a reason for ever going back to the old 2d editor.

 

/Edit: Maybe if you only work on scripts, then I can understand the loading times thing, but for working with scripts you probably could as well load the vr map, which should load pretty fast as well.

[tortuosit 486]

Also I don't notice any longer loading times? Maybe the initial start up is slower but you just start this thing once every session and we are talking about seconds here.

From a developer perspective I'd say maintaining two editors instead of just one is much more work with little to no positive effect. So why keep it?

 

I'm especially thinking about returning from mission preview to editor, which takes some time in 3D editor. I'm doing it a lot in a scripting scenario.

Why keep it? Because it is there and options are good.

Loading the VR map is a good point, but does not apply for me. E.g. for the weather mod I need the terrain loaded.

 

However, I will make some comparisons in loading times in my working scenarios...

 

@chortles, yes, different output formats... but for scripting and testing I do not need to produce mission save files.

[bars91 956]

Progress and advancement is paid for by sacrificing whats comfortable for whats better.  ;) (think forcing Steam and scrapping 2D editor)

 

I'm willing to give away my 10+ years of experience and comfort with 2D editor for learning a much more advanced tool.

(same really as I sacrificed years of experience with Sony Vegas to learn Adobe Premiere/AE from the ground up)

[twisted 128]

i find that you dont have to exit all the way back to the editor to reload script changes (this is in SP editing in Eden). Just hit esc in the mission and then choose restart. The new script is loaded uickly. no need to go back to the editor each time.

 

which, while most of you know this, might help others make up those lost seconds.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Overall i don't mind the loss of the 2d editor, the 2d map version in the 3d editor is a decent enough replacement, and an improvement in some areas.

 

My only wish is that double leftclick could be bound to the old function of 'place selected asset type' instead of 'move camera', which i will probably never use. Having to move to the list on the right, select something, place it and then edit it is a bit of a hassle compared to 'click click, edit, enter'. Same for placing waypoints and triggers.

 

EDIT: Also, the fonts look absolutely terrible, with jaggies everywhere.

[road runner 4344]

seriously ? how fast do you want the 3d editor to reload? I could see your point if it was taking 3 -4 minutes, but literally it takes what? 20-40 seconds to reopen? and that's a show stopper for some of you?

 

does 30-40 seconds have all that much of an impact on your scripting stuff? Sounds more like me at first, it's a change in the way things were done, and nobody likes change, once their in a routine.

If you're on a low spec machine, yes the 3D editor kind of blows chunks, so is it worth upgrading to Apex and getting Tanhoa?

I hated the 3D editor at first, but now it's good fun, you can see things in perspective now, in the real world (figure of speech)

[tortuosit 486]

i find that you dont have to exit all the way back to the editor to reload script changes (this is in SP editing in Eden). Just hit esc in the mission and then choose restart. The new script is loaded uickly. no need to go back to the editor each time.

 

I know, but I often do it, e.g. when fog scripting I change position on map at any time.

 

seriously ? how fast do you want the 3d editor to reload? I could see your point if it was taking 3 -4 minutes, but literally it takes what? 20-40 seconds to reopen? and that's a show stopper for some of you?

"Show stopper"? No, who says that, don't make a drama. But if EDEN took 20-40 seconds to reopen, indeed it would be a show stopper.

 

I did some testings. Placement of first unit sometimes lagged for a few seconds. But now I did not observe it. Not sure when this happens.

Return to Eden is maybe 2 seconds here. So, I say.. Hmmm. I may get used to it :)

[roshnak 41]

I know, but I often do it, e.g. when fog scripting I change position on map at any time.

 

I don't really understand why you would need to go back to the editor for this. Can't you just use the debug menu to adjust fog paramaters or call your script and the splendid camera (or the debug menu) to move yourself around the map?

 

And if you want to use the simpler editor fog slider then you can just do that in the 3D editor and the changes are reflected straight away. No need to preview the scenario.

[Greenfist 1863]

I don't really understand why you would need to go back to the editor for this. Can't you just use the debug menu to adjust fog paramaters or call your script and the splendid camera (or the debug menu) to move yourself around the map?

 

And if you want to use the simpler editor fog slider then you can just do that in the 3D editor and the changes are reflected straight away. No need to preview the scenario.

You can also move yourself by alt+clicking on the map. And you can run some scripts/commands, like setFog, from the console without previewing the mission.

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

does 30-40 seconds have all that much of an impact on your scripting stuff? 

 

 

But of course it may have. First - it is multiplied by amount of tries, which often are many (like few per minute in some not so rare cases, eg during debugging). Second - such delay is really annoying "mind flow disruptor", when tool enforces faster minds to stop and waaa-ait... I can tell this, because similar effect occurs for VBS editor, which is more sluggish than Arma's 2D, while there delays are smaller (although every step). 30-40 seconds of delay each preview would be disastrous for work flow so I hope, it's highly exaggerated.

[tortuosit 486]

Guys nope, my modding requires mission restart in order to initialize things and Rydygier gets it right. Fighting with ArmAs scripting language, you sometimes restart missions 10000 times. Per minute ;)

Yes guys I know, debug console... I thought ALT+mapclick is because of some mod... (mcc?) but hey.

 

Rydygier, it is highly exaggerated. With my system (see sig) return from mission preview to Eden takes ~2.5 seconds. From Eden to mission preview same time as when you start from 2D editor.

TBH it works pretty well. Mission restart takes same time as with 2D editor. So. I will see. Only first placement of a player unit always takes like 5 seconds...