Firing from Vehicles feedback

[das attorney 857]

no offense but BI have a history of just implementing things and never touching them again. and in addition making things not modular enough. this could become yet another case of huge waste of potential. i'm not trying to sound ungrateful since it's the best new feature since ages. i just think that now is the time for being vocal. who knows? maybe someone at BI will say "fuck these guys, we're gonna show them" and push this further, if we are annoying enough.

That is a good point. In order for this to be released, they've probably had lots of meetings about feasibility, allocating resources and agreed the extent of change before even sitting down to code and model it, so I pretty much feel it's set in stone the way it is. That said, I'd like to see more expansion on the system to give them and the community more flexibility for the future.

[Bouben 3]

If Force exceeds X = animate ragdoll. Also, falling out of the vehicle might actually save your life in some cases.

Interesting. Now do it without glitching :D

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

That is a good point. In order for this to be released, they've probably had lots of meetings about feasibility, allocating resources and agreed the extent of change before even sitting down to code and model it, so I pretty much feel it's set in stone the way it is. That said, I'd like to see more expansion on the system to give them and the community more flexibility for the future.

You are writing about my fears...

Edited September 24, 2014 by Bouben

[chortles 263]

That is a good point. In order for this to be released, they've probably had lots of meetings about feasibility, allocating resources and agreed the extent of change before even sitting down to code and model it

Because of how BI's behaved ever since the infamous "axed features" thread (see every "no promises" joke they've made ever since), I wouldn't be surprised if all that was decided before they even dared to announce the firing from vehicles feature in the first place.

[Bouben 3]

Because of how BI's behaved ever since the infamous "axed features" thread (see every "no promises" joke they've made ever since), I wouldn't be surprised if all that was decided before they even dared to announce the firing from vehicles feature in the first place.

OK, guys. Just don't only criticize, please, as DEVs are evidently working hard and need to see our support in order to stay healthy and motivated.

That being said, I agree that lot of features has more potential than has been realized.

[Gutsnav 13]

One thing I have noticed while testing is that there isn't any weapon inertia. Other than that, it's looking pretty solid (well I would like there not to be any limits, but hey whatever).

[onlyrazor 11]

Thus far I'd say the (aiming) limits are the biggest, well, limits to this feature. It'd be nice to see them tweaked a little so they feel a little more natural, but other than that, the functionality's fine. Grenade throwing seems oddly staggered, but that might just be me lagging.

[chortles 263]

Yep, that's it. I'd just love it if BI could dig in and make this feature more complete than it currently is in regards to animations and limits. It's getting silly how often we hear about features being halfway done due to the exact same reasoning as Smookie gave us, now to the point that I'm imagining that the following scene is very common over there:

http://i.imgur.com/3UUP5zb.jpg

On the other hand, this will presumably all make it to stable branch (and therefore BI can really start talking it up) before DayZ introduces vehicles... ;)

Seriously though, I was pleasantly surprised at how well the feature works, though I confess that I too would really like to see "turn-out/door-open" and "passenger seat/shotgun" support! And if we're not going to get a standard motorbike/motorcycle than can we at least get a new quadbike passenger pose for this?!

[i use it in our upcoming RTS game

WHAT

For those searching on how to enable firing from vehicles here we go. I tested it with a MH 9 Humminbird. I assume it will work on other vehicles:)

In general it works, though not 1:1 since of course the exact positions and corresponding number vary, i.e. only 5 and 6 will correspond to FFV-capable seats in the Hellcat (numbers 1 through 4 correspond to the non-FFV capable passenger seats), while there's only the four passenger seats on the unarmed Offroads and on the rubber boats. Edited September 25, 2014 by Chortles

[bis_iceman 7385]

Is it just me or is the ability to look left on right Hellcat bench too short? I can't look any further than the rocket pod, which is a real shame.

It was tweaked this way so long rifles (with suppressors) don't overlap with Hellcat's rocketpods. WHile there are some limits that still need tweaking, the idea was not to let weapons overlap with vehicle geometry in external view. It could not be accomplished everywhere (i.e. Hummingbird benches) but the less overlapping, the better.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

On the other hand, this will presumably all make it to stable branch (and therefore BI can really start talking it up) before DayZ introduces vehicles... ;)

What does DayZ have to do with anything that's being talked about here? And what's wrong with talking it up? It's a great feature that so far works well, except for animation and arbitrary restrictions which result from sweeping awkward things under the rug instead of actually resolving them. "This apartment is amazing, but there's a bloodstain on my floor. I'll just put a carpet over it" type of resolving problems.

EDIT: And the well timed post that popped up above mine is what I'm talking about.

WHAT

Pretty sure he's talking about this, and not a BI title.

[machineabuse 11]

Leaning out of car windows should be more doable on the mod front once the base system for firing from vehicles is complete. Historically the major issues with this on the mod front have been related to synchronicity issues keeping players in the right spot in/on the vehicle especially over network. Once BI makes the core more robust a lot of windows will open (no pun intended) :)

[laxemann 1673]

Being able to open doors or shoot out of e.g. MRAP windows would make it perfect. In fact, it is a necessary feature if you ask me.

I currently fear that "closed" vehicles will stay just another easy target...

[bad benson 1733]

It was tweaked this way so long rifles (with suppressors) don't overlap with Hellcat's rocketpods. WHile there are some limits that still need tweaking, the idea was not to let weapons overlap with vehicle geometry in external view. It could not be accomplished everywhere (i.e. Hummingbird benches) but the less overlapping, the better.

it would really make much more sense to find a solution for what happens if you shoot your own vehicle. i tested this to see why you guys would limit stuff just because of it and the bullets just go through the vehicle. my solution so far was simply deleting the projectile when there is intersection happening with your own vehicle checked using the weapon vector using a fired even handler. i don't see how this would not be possible on an engine level.

what is the problem here? do AI shoot through their own vehicles with free rotation enabled? would be a real shame if that was the reason players are so limited too.

i would also like to know if it is possible to animate the proxy in a way that the lower body rotates with the aim horizontally (only!). that would be great since it would mean that we could essentially mod out all the limitations. then all this would be not a problem at all.

[klamacz 447]

We all know we want to do this, firing from open windows in vehicles, firing from opened doors on Ghosthawks and other airframes. Just thinking about something right now that I'm worried about, when you get into the back of a truck, you usually get into the furthest away slot from the rear-end, this means that you need a full truck to be able to fire from the rear, but I'd rather have those firing positions as cargo positions index 1-2.

Everyone loves Generation kill, firing from those highly detailed Humwee's the community released. Let's get some!

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag153/OksmanTV/firingfromvehicles_zps572a0de5.jpg

Each vehicle can have it's own custom order of cargo+FFV positions (mentioned here). In case of trucks its usually the FFV back positions being first in this ordered array, even if cargo index is not 1,2.

And yes, everyone loves Generation Kill ;)

it would really make much more sense to find a solution for what happens if you shoot your own vehicle. i tested this to see why you guys would limit stuff just because of it and the bullets just go through the vehicle. my solution so far was simply deleting the projectile when there is intersection happening with your own vehicle checked using the weapon vector using a fired even handler. i don't see how this would not be possible on an engine level.

what is the problem here? do AI shoot through their own vehicles with free rotation enabled? would be a real shame if that was the reason players are so limited too.

i would also like to know if it is possible to animate the proxy in a way that the lower body rotates with the aim horizontally (only!). that would be great since it would mean that we could essentially mod out all the limitations. then all this would be not a problem at all.

Collision of bullets with the vehicle is just disabled, its actually more performance friendly than removing existing bullet after it hits the vehicle.

Horizontal rotation of proxy was removed on purpose, the guy needs to sit in proper place. AI has no problems shooting wherever, the view limits are working the same for AI and players.

Being able to open doors or shoot out of e.g. MRAP windows would make it perfect. In fact, it is a necessary feature if you ask me.

I currently fear that "closed" vehicles will stay just another easy target...

Engine already supports animationSource checking for animating doors/windows/whatever you want. FFV position can be configured to be enabled only when animation state is finished.

[chortles 263]

What does DayZ have to do with anything that's being talked about here? And what's wrong with talking it up? It's a great feature that so far works well, except for animation and arbitrary restrictions which result from sweeping awkward things under the rug instead of actually resolving them. "This apartment is amazing, but there's a bloodstain on my floor. I'll just put a carpet over it" type of resolving problems.

Just a joke about how the A3 team treats features development/roadmaps versus DayZ's, that Arma 3 is at a point where you can complain about "animation and arbitrary restrictions" instead of whether the feature is at all there, much less basically working.

@ klamacz: Funny, I've actually bounced grenades and other throwables off of the Hummingbird benches multiple times now... :lol:

@ BIS_Iceman: I think you guys missed a spot in the form of the covered trucks, the "cargo left rear" shooter's weapon can clip through the tarp/cover at the rightmost edge of the fire arc without being able to see around or through said tarp. EDIT: I notice that it was adjusted in the 25 September update!

Edited September 25, 2014 by Chortles

[Bouben 3]

To me, the limits are really problematic. It is not normal to see enemy machinegunners in a back of an offroad to not be able to shoot me just because I am prone and they are unable to aim more to the ground. They just stare at me, aim at me and wait until I get within their aiming limits. Funny and frustrating at the same time.

[deltagamer 612]

Instead of adding working hatches for soldiers to "turn out" and fire from on the APC's etc, couldn't BI get around it by adding seating positions on top of the hull for some vehicles.

Example

[chortles 263]

Instead of adding working hatches for soldiers to "turn out" and fire from on the APC's etc, couldn't BI get around it by adding seating positions on top of the hull for some vehicles.

That photo's URL claims that they're attachTo'd... unless you're talking about having "seated position" proxies on top of the hull in the MLODs? I can see this for sufficiently slow-moving APCs... but the armored cars, not so much. For what it's worth though:

Engine already supports animationSource checking for animating doors/windows/whatever you want. FFV position can be configured to be enabled only when animation state is finished.

So at least vehicle mods have a solution for the "turning out" front.

[deltagamer 612]

Yeah I was just using it as a seating example and not a firing from vehicle example. Obviously BI could add in custom sitting animations for the positions on top of APC's that allowed firing from the vehicle. They could also limit the turrets turning point as if it had full 360 turning then it could knock off the passengers.

[killzone_kid 1326]

Instead of adding working hatches for soldiers to "turn out" and fire from on the APC's etc, couldn't BI get around it by adding seating positions on top of the hull for some vehicles.

Example

http://www.armaholic.com/datas/users/4-attahto_apc.jpg

This is splendid idea, this is both useful and very cool.

[old_painless 182]

To me, the limits are really problematic. It is not normal to see enemy machinegunners in a back of an offroad to not be able to shoot me just because I am prone and they are unable to aim more to the ground. They just stare at me, aim at me and wait until I get within their aiming limits. Funny and frustrating at the same time.

I agree, that's gameplay being negatively affected right there, more or less an exploit. BI, please look into these limits

[DancZer 65]

Would be better if they disable FFV in the ground vehicles, because they can't implement the way you want and leave it only for the helicopter? I don't think so.

[bad benson 1733]

Collision of bullets with the vehicle is just disabled, its actually more performance friendly than removing existing bullet after it hits the vehicle.

hm. too bad that it can't be enabled then, or can it? not really a problem either way. deleting the bullet is obviously only needed because you guys deactivated the collision :p i'm well aware that it would be done differently/way more simple on the engine side.

Horizontal rotation of proxy was removed on purpose, the guy needs to sit in proper place.

can you guys please PLEASE! add a parameter to turn it on? this limitation is killing me. i'm not talking about you changing the vision you had for the feature. just let me use it for my own purpose. i would be sooo grateful. just a simple boolean would be enough.

while i kind of get your argument about the visual side, that is exactly why i need it. there are many situations like especially on the loading area of trucks and for example the offroad (not to mention the small boat where everyone would have 360 but instead everything is limited by fancy cargo anims) where this limitation makes no sense since the room you take up is pretty much square in size. so rotating wouldn't even cause severe clipping.

and while i also get that you guys seem to be stuck on the idea of having a specific static pose i simply want the opportunity to make it so you can actually move since that is simply what you could do in real life too. not to mention that the poses that are used on the offroad are not really shooting poses.

i'll just make a video i guess.

AI has no problems shooting wherever, the view limits are working the same for AI and players.

that was kind of my point. so in a scenario with 360 full rotation they would then actually shoot at targets through their own vehicle, which is not desired ofc. would be interesting what happens with shooting of your own vehicle enabled :D

[Sniperwolf572 758]

More reasons to give into Smookies demands, I'm guessing the angles are going to have to be severely limited in the trucks to fix this:

Hummingbird and offroad exhibit model "flattening" when turned to their max angles while in the weapon lowered state:

Anyway, due to the way animations are handled, even if you can change the limits to +-360 degrees, this feature is effectively limited to +-180 degrees because no anim will ever look good beyond that point. They barely look ok even on 180.

[smookie 11]

Back of the truck can be tweaked by just rotating the proxy which I will helpfully do soon.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Back of the truck can be tweaked by just rotating the proxy which I will helpfully do soon.

Stop undermining my efforts to push your agenda. ;)