Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[x3kj 1247]

Arma is focused on open terrain very much also BECAUSE it lacks very badly in CQC situations.

The terrain is not open because it lacks in CQC, its open because it lacks in performance in heavily build up city maps (A2:OA) and buildings are not crowded with furniture like real houses would. Not because of CQC, but because of performance. Also, the terrain is open because realworld terrain is surprisingly, for the largest part, open...

[Variable 322]

I was referring to reasons why Arma GAMEPLAY is focused on the open terrain way more than on built up areas. I believe that if CQC will become more meaningful by making choices of weapon matter, we will see more CQC missions than are available now. Of course, there's performance as a reason too.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Variable

[das attorney 858]

I don't think any other game has done the same kind of inertia implementation as Arma. Usually it's just a purely visual feature which have no impact on gameplay whatsoever. Other games do not simulate your barrel, they just spawn a projectile straight out from the middle of your screen so it does not matter where the gun model is pointing. In Arma, inertia is much more important, because the projectiles spawn inside the barrel and goes out through the muzzle. Pretty amazing stuff compared to other games.

You were right about this maybe 5 years ago. This is a common misconception about other shooters that Arma fans have.

In UE4, you spawn the projectile from a defined socket. You can even set up multiple sockets really easily, which is a massive bitch to do in Arma, so I would say some other shooters are more advanced than Arma in that respect.

https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/196853/spawning-projectile-at-alternating-sockets.html

[Brisse 78]

Das Attorney: Cool! I had no idea.

[EricJ 761]

I was referring to reasons why Arma GAMEPLAY is focused on the open terrain way more than on built up areas. I believe that if CQC will become more meaningful by making choices of weapon matter, we will see more CQC missions than are available now. Of course, there's performance as a reason too.

The best thing is to use mods that have Spartan0536s ammo setup, and not just mine (RH's, etc.), as he puts some hard work into it and quite frankly there is a performance difference. Even BIS took a good step in that direction with the set Initspeeds for the weapons so there are performance changes (which is why I use the MXM now as it kills quite efficienctly) and therefore can decide what works for me either in open or urban terrain. Granted actual weapon length isn't accounted as far as object interaction (even games such as Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter you had to be close enough to a wall for it to automatically lower your weapon per common sense) but that's an issue as far as object collision and animation as well.

[machineabuse 11]

You were right about this maybe 5 years ago. This is a common misconception about other shooters that Arma fans have.

In UE4, you spawn the projectile from a defined socket. You can even set up multiple sockets really easily, which is a massive bitch to do in Arma, so I would say some other shooters are more advanced than Arma in that respect.

https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/196853/spawning-projectile-at-alternating-sockets.html

We did a lot of the same stuff for Infiltration back in the Unreal Tournament engine actually. We had properly defined locations for both spawning bullet projectiles as well as individually set vectors locations for brass ejection (I volunteered for that because OCD). Our main programmer also did weapon collision with terrain which in practice didn't work as well as you might think; translating what a player reasonably intends with weapon collision is a tricky business. On the one hand it gives you deep CQB mechanics on the other hand when you need to get your weapon through a loophole to shoot the bounding boxes in games often don't want to play ball.

[St. Jimmy 272]

The weapon sway and holding is feeling nice again in the current dev branch. But I think you need to tune the breathing sounds because they give feedback too late. The weapon is already swaying when you get out of breath. The out of breath sound needs to start at the same time or just 0.1s before the gun starts to sway.

[Kryptongame 14]

The weapon sway and holding is feeling nice again in the current dev branch. But I think you need to tune the breathing sounds because they give feedback too late. The weapon is already swaying when you get out of breath. The out of breath sound needs to start at the same time or just 0.1s before the gun starts to sway.

Was sway changed since yesterday? I'll have to try it again.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Was sway changed since yesterday? I'll have to try it again.

Just remember to hold your breath and it's controllable.

[Kryptongame 14]

Just remember to hold your breath and it's controllable.

Oh I agree. I mean when simply moving left or right quickly it becomes uncontrollable, 2x more than in stable...wondering if that was adjusted

[mjolnir66 48]

Randomly, is it possible to change the sway amount based on weapon? I only ask, because a good way of keeping people from running and gunning with bigger weapons/using bigger weapons unrealistically is to introduce a large amount of sway onto the weapons when using them unsupported. Using an 11kg FN MAG or its equivalent standing in the same way you use a regular rifle is not really feasable, much like using an anti materiel rifle standing isn't either, so maybe there should be something other than inertia stopping people from doing it.

[Lobotomy Lobster 6]

Randomly, is it possible to change the sway amount based on weapon? I only ask, because a good way of keeping people from running and gunning with bigger weapons/using bigger weapons unrealistically is to introduce a large amount of sway onto the weapons when using them unsupported. Using an 11kg FN MAG or its equivalent standing in the same way you use a regular rifle is not really feasable, much like using an anti materiel rifle standing isn't either, so maybe there should be something other than inertia stopping people from doing it.

 

This is a good idea, but I'd consider going further and just not allow people to aim down the sights of MGs while standing if they aren't supported.

[razor6014 35]

yes but this is the thing once you stop moving even if you are standing up ... keeping the sights on targets is easy if the weapon is heavy ... its once you apply force  that sway  happens (be it you moving or firing the weapon)

 i mean i know what you would like but i prefer realistic physics more than wow lets make balance for sake of balance ... 

Randomly, is it possible to change the sway amount based on weapon? I only ask, because a good way of keeping people from running and gunning with bigger weapons/using bigger weapons unrealistically is to introduce a large amount of sway onto the weapons when using them unsupported. Using an 11kg FN MAG or its equivalent standing in the same way you use a regular rifle is not really feasable, much like using an anti materiel rifle standing isn't either, so maybe there should be something other than inertia stopping people from doing it.

[gatordev 219]

This is a good idea, but I'd consider going further and just not allow people to aim down the sights of MGs while standing if they aren't supported.

 

There are numerous examples of people (military or other) shooting MGs while using the sights and standing.  If a player/server is playing without the cursor reticle, then it's unrealistically hampering a realistic and useful firing technique. 

[ruPal 143]

Randomly, is it possible to change the sway amount based on weapon? I only ask, because a good way of keeping people from running and gunning with bigger weapons/using bigger weapons unrealistically is to introduce a large amount of sway onto the weapons when using them unsupported. Using an 11kg FN MAG or its equivalent standing in the same way you use a regular rifle is not really feasable, much like using an anti materiel rifle standing isn't either, so maybe there should be something other than inertia stopping people from doing it.

There is no a script command to change sway. It is impossible. All you can to change is recoil.

[mjolnir66 48]

yes but this is the thing once you stop moving even if you are standing up ... keeping the sights on targets is easy if the weapon is heavy ... its once you apply force  that sway  happens (be it you moving or firing the weapon)

 i mean i know what you would like but i prefer realistic physics more than wow lets make balance for sake of balance ... 

 

No it isn't. An 11kg weapon where the centre of balance is outside the reach of your forward arm is near impossible to bring up and sight, which is why you see people usinging them from the waist aiming using tracers. I know this because I have actually tried it.

[razor6014 35]

yes but the problem is not the weight , the problem is the geometry ... , which is machine gun specific 

[stburr91 1009]

There are numerous examples of people (military or other) shooting MGs while using the sights and standing.  If a player/server is playing without the cursor reticle, then it's unrealistically hampering a realistic and useful firing technique. 

 

 

Yes, the Navy Seals would fire the M60E standing, using the sights. All light, and medium machine guns are designed to be capable of being fired from the shoulder. Now of course it would be more accuracy firing from prone, but machine guns can be fired from the shoulder accurately.  

 

No it isn't. An 11kg weapon where the centre of balance is outside the reach of your forward arm is near impossible to bring up and sight, which is why you see people usinging them from the waist aiming using tracers. I know this because I have actually tried it.

 

I don't know of any firearms that have their center of mass beyond the shooter's forward arm. Such a gun design would make no ergonomic sense.

 

 

This video kinda of blows away the idea that you can't shoot off hand standing up with a heavy gun. It's a 1000 meter shot standing, unsupported, with a M107 .

 

The shot is taken at 1:20 of the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA

[roberthammer 582]

Yes, the Navy Seals would fire the M60E standing, using the sights. All light, and medium machine guns are designed to be capable of being fired from the shoulder. Now of course it would be more accuracy firing from prone, but machine guns can be fired from the shoulder accurately.  

Some of them yes ,but not with the .338NM or 9.3mm MGs ...

 

with real LWMMG you wouldn't be able to do it , here you got some wild example > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwu3ivAJ68U

[Lobotomy Lobster 6]

Yes, the Navy Seals would fire the M60E standing, using the sights. All light, and medium machine guns are designed to be capable of being fired from the shoulder. Now of course it would be more accuracy firing from prone, but machine guns can be fired from the shoulder accurately.  

 

 

I don't know of any firearms that have their center of mass beyond the shooter's forward arm. Such a gun design would make no ergonomic sense.

 

 

This video kinda of blows away the idea that you can't shoot off hand standing up with a heavy gun. It's a 1000 meter shot standing, unsupported, with a M107 .

 

The shot is taken at 1:20 of the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA

 

While that video is impressive, its probably not something that anyone would do regularly in real combat for a whole bunch of reasons and what Navy SEALs can supposedly do is not what the majority of normal infantry can or would do, which is A3's general baseline for how it represents infantry combat. As RobertHammer's video shows, there is a real limit to what you can do firing an MG while standing, regardless of how strong or ninja you are.

 

The other issue is that its clearly a very highly skilled stunt shot, whereas currently people are taking shots like that regularly with both the high powered sniper rifles and with GPMGs that would almost never be fired in real life without being supported in some way. This is pushing out engagement ranges in the game far further than they should be while making GPMGs the go to weapon for everyone rather than a support weapon that is good for suppression at medium to long range but weak in close quarters and on the move. This is only made worse by the lack of noticeable recoil when hip firing MGs at close range that actually makes GPMGs the preffered weapon for room clearing, which is obviously just plain wrong for both realism and game balance.

 

You can't just base the game's "realism" on a bunch of youtube videos, you need to think about how people actually use these weapons in real life and what constraints there are to using them. The question you've got to ask is, is this really the kind of realistic gameplay that A3 is trying to create? I don't think it is.

[Beagle 684]

What you see here is no navy seal stuff but the usual stuff EVERY germen soldier is supposed to do at least once in basic training...firing MG3 from, the hip.

Notice how steady the MG is due to it's own weight and hence inertia.

 

I did this myself and while precision is nonexistant the pure volume of fire is devastating in a sudden and unplanned close quarter situation.

A refined method is to grab the MG at the bipod and support it on your hip....or the shoulder of an comrade while that comrade holds the bipod.

 

https://youtu.be/-1tHSWgT41c

 

My expertise is not coubnted in years but my fallback role in the squad in all my army days when we did trainig outside of our special training role was that of the machinegunner so I have more experience with the MG3 compared to any other Weapon. I have at least fired 5000 life rounds with that weapon in the GPMG configuration.

Aiming is not the problem with such a heavy bulky weapon neither is grouping, the real trouble is lugging it around and the amount of ammunition you can practically use is by far less then in this game. I also noticed that there is still "sway" when firing with a deployed bipod which is far far far away from my experience with this kind of weapon. In fakt a GPMG has no noticable recoil on bipod or muzze climb at all even at 1200 rounds per minute.

[gatordev 219]

Yes, the Navy Seals would fire the M60E standing, using the sights. All light, and medium machine guns are designed to be capable of being fired from the shoulder. Now of course it would be more accuracy firing from prone, but machine guns can be fired from the shoulder accurately.  

 

Absolutely.  Supported is the preference.

 

While that video is impressive, its probably not something that anyone would do regularly in real combat for a whole bunch of reasons and what Navy SEALs can supposedly do is not what the majority of normal infantry can or would do, which is A3's general baseline for how it represents infantry combat. As RobertHammer's video shows, there is a real limit to what you can do firing an MG while standing, regardless of how strong or ninja you are.

 

Your original post said "MG."  You didn't specify anything more than that.  You also said to eliminate the ability for the player to look down the sights.  Yes, everyone would love to keep the weapon supported at all times, but it's not uncommon to shoot a SAW (which is a MG) or even a M60/M240 from the shoulder.  I agree that a standard soldier =/= a specialized operator (SEAL or other).  But again, your original post said to completely eliminate the ability in-game.  Give the player/mission maker that option?  Sure, but recommending whole sale changes to the mechanics in such a way kind of goes against the hallmark of the BIS titles, and that's options.

[Lobotomy Lobster 6]

Your original post said "MG."  You didn't specify anything more than that.  You also said to eliminate the ability for the player to look down the sights.  Yes, everyone would love to keep the weapon supported at all times, but it's not uncommon to shoot a SAW (which is a MG) or even a M60/M240 from the shoulder.  I agree that a standard soldier =/= a specialized operator (SEAL or other).  But again, your original post said to completely eliminate the ability in-game.  Give the player/mission maker that option?  Sure, but recommending whole sale changes to the mechanics in such a way kind of goes against the hallmark of the BIS titles, and that's options.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a5GblouASE&feature=youtu.be

 

This is a quick test I did with the Navid and DMS. From standing unsupported at 500m with full stamina I hit 4 out of 6 shots and the first was a headshot. I'll admit I've never played with a GPMG for any meaningful amount of time in the real world but I'm not convinced that what happens in that video is something that could reliably be done with a real weapon and it doesn't make much sense balance wise either.

 

I think the easiest way to fix this is to just make it so that you can't sight in MGs while moving and you can't sight them in from standing unsupported. You can still hipfire in combat pace for close range and for longer ranges you can either crouch, go prone or deploy it on an object. I don't think that balance issues like this should be left to modders as there's got to be some kind of consistent basic gameplay and I don't think how it is now is how it should be.

[stburr91 1009]

 

 

I think the easiest way to fix this is to just make it so that you can't sight in MGs while moving and you can't sight them in from standing unsupported. You can still hipfire in combat pace for close range and for longer ranges you can either crouch, go prone or deploy it on an object. I don't think that balance issues like this should be left to modders as there's got to be some kind of consistent basic gameplay and I don't think how it is now is how it should be.

 

I just don't get the idea that you shouldn't be able to fire MGs sighted while standing. There are no shortage of videos of people firing MGs standing, so it clearly can be done. Of course you would not be able to hit targets accurately several hundred meter away. The truth is that you can't shoot accurately with the MGs as it is in the game, there's no need to make them even less useful. 

[twisted 128]

I just don't get the idea that you shouldn't be able to fire MGs sighted while standing. There are no shortage of videos of people firing MGs standing, so it clearly can be done. Of course you would not be able to hit targets accurately several hundred meter away. The truth is that you can't shoot accurately with the MGs as it is in the game, there's no need to make them even less useful. 

 

 

 

 

Sure...

there's a reason for bipods and doctrine concerning the use of lmgs on the battlefield. and it's its more than whether people are strong enough or not. Lmgs, mmgs, etc play a very specific tactical role on the battlefield that precludes and naturally doesnt often include rambo rock n roll.

 

going rambo is fun, but not much use unless close up.