Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[CaptainObvious 95]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162022-Advanced-Cockpit-Interaction

it was really cool - i wish BIS could do the same for Heli DLC , no need to have moving switches tho

Damn that's nice, I dont know how I've missed that! I'd love to see BI to find the time to do that for all vehicles.

[hoizen 18]

Location?

The tower in the video is on Altis, Pyrgos 8-digit grid 16561261

Anyway, regarding:

should not explode when rotor hits something

(build 126616)

I've been playing around with the rotor collisions and these choppers still just straight up explode after having nothing but the rotors collide.

I did 6 tests. 3 with the AH-6 hummingbird and another 3 with the ghost hawk.

It seems like the littlebird just explodes upon rotor collision while the ghosthawk takes a bit of rotor collision and (what I'm assuming is) spill over damage from the rotor to get the oh-so-hated kaboom.

There was one instance with the ghosthawk in this video that did not have it explode which is what I like to see as the only thing that collided was the rotor. Unfortunately, there was also an extremely weird instance of the ghosthawk exploding mid air after rotor collision.(seen at 5:20)

EDIT: Forgot to mention. I'm running no mods in the video.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Hoizen

[MavericK96 0]

Funny thing is that rotor damage was in Arma 3's early beta days.

Even in that video there is some weird behavior with the helicopter exploding after barely hitting an object.

This is something that desperately needs to be changed. If you are not an ace pilot you can will touch down just a tiny bit too hard and cause, at a minimum, the helicopter to become completely unusable, and at worst a massive explosion that kills everyone inside.

[dr. hladik 231]

The tower in the video is on Altis, Pyrgos 8-digit grid 16561261

Anyway, regarding:

(build 126616)

I've been playing around with the rotor collisions and these choppers still just straight up explode after having nothing but the rotors collide.

I did 6 tests. 3 with the AH-6 hummingbird and another 3 with the ghost hawk.

It seems like the littlebird just explodes upon rotor collision while the ghosthawk takes a bit of rotor collision and (what I'm assuming is) spill over damage from the rotor to get the oh-so-hated kaboom.

There was one instance with the ghosthawk in this video that did not have it explode which is what I like to see as the only thing that collided was the rotor. Unfortunately, there was also an extremely weird instance of the ghosthawk exploding mid air after rotor collision.(seen at 5:20)

Hmm, seems you have only exe changes, not data. Need to check if everything went out.

[Enricksolt 12]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162022-Advanced-Cockpit-Interaction

it was really cool - i wish BIS could do the same for Heli DLC , no need to have moving switches tho

Glad that RH knows about it ;)

It was an old and poorly optimized project, (it was just a script, not even an addon and it was very modular and super easy to customize) i've had a lot of fun making it but until BIS doesn't fix this (

) there is nothing you can do.

[dr. hladik 231]

Glad that RH knows about it ;)

It was an old and poorly optimized project, (it was just a script, not even an addon and it was very modular and super easy to customize) i've had a lot of fun making it but until BIS doesn't fix this (

) there is nothing you can do.

Not a bug.

Complex to explain and this is not a correct thread. Send me a PM what exactly do you need to get.

See http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16115.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Dr. Hladik

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Luffing the the additional detail of rolling wheels which is why I must point out that the mohawk wheels seem to still be static.

Also is there any chance that the landing gear audio might make its way from TKOH?

I know its not necessarily a "realistic" feature as you likely wouldn't hear it as much but it offers an extra sense of feedback. Kind of similar to that feeling you get when an airplane is landing.

Overall I have to say I'm ecstatic, when I heard A3 wasn't going to have TKOH's flight model and stuff I figured it would never happen so needless to say I'm beyond joyful that we have the flight model, collective power, as well as the ability to taxi with rolling landings and takeoffs.

There really needs to be better feedback regarding wheels. I had one time I thought I was rolling down the runway after landing, brought down the collective to zero fairly quickly, and ended up slamming into the ground just hard enough to bounce wrong and of course detonate. Guess I had just achieved a very stable glide about 2 feet over the tarmac.

[Azzur33 1]

EXE rev. 126616,

Trying out the Ghost Hawk again, breaking the main rotor, ...no explosion, good.

Helo tail touching something, even at very low speeds, explosion and death.

Head on collision with something at very slow speed, no collision ...until "deep enough" ...then KABOOM.

Landing roughly may break things, but if tail ...or any part of the body touches anything, even slightly, total destruction.

A video. All at normal game speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouzadC1_sc4

[armored_sheep 56]

Today new FM hot-fix will be out with reduced yaw and side-slip rates during forward flight. But it will work only if auto-trim is enabled.

Basically what probably went wrong, and thanks to Dslyecxi was very well shown in video, is a combination of simplified tail rotor simulation (not a blade element theory like main rotor) and not well balanced forces defined on rotor, fuselage and tail stabilizers. We will proceed with tweaking of all the values to give better simulation also to "full fidelity" enthusiasts ;)

[worldsprayer 0]

The tower in the video is on Altis, Pyrgos 8-digit grid 16561261

Anyway, regarding:

(build 126616)

I've been playing around with the rotor collisions and these choppers still just straight up explode after having nothing but the rotors collide.

I did 6 tests. 3 with the AH-6 hummingbird and another 3 with the ghost hawk.

It seems like the littlebird just explodes upon rotor collision while the ghosthawk takes a bit of rotor collision and (what I'm assuming is) spill over damage from the rotor to get the oh-so-hated kaboom.

There was one instance with the ghosthawk in this video that did not have it explode which is what I like to see as the only thing that collided was the rotor. Unfortunately, there was also an extremely weird instance of the ghosthawk exploding mid air after rotor collision.(seen at 5:20)

EDIT: Forgot to mention. I'm running no mods in the video.

I'm curious, what is it you WANT to happen when the aircraft main rotor blades with INCREDIBLE stored kinetic energy impacts an immovable surface?

That is very very rarely a survivable experience, so taking the damage modifier to the max makes sense. Anything less than complete destruction of the aircraft doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Here is an old clip of a pair of 101st blackhawks with the very tips of their rotor blades contact each other.

Note the immediate disintegration of the right-hand aircraft. I think 7 died altogether?

You have to understand when those hit something, the force that transmits into the transmission and then into the frame and skin of the aircraft is phenomenal. I wouldn't believe the game if a helo survived such an event. At the most, you and any passengers would have to walk away seriously injured from an accident at very low and slow speeds (like the above link).

[james2464 177]

Thank you armored sheep

[CaptainObvious 95]

I'm curious, what is it you WANT to happen when the aircraft main rotor blades with INCREDIBLE stored kinetic energy impacts an immovable surface?

That is very very rarely a survivable experience, so taking the damage modifier to the max makes sense. Anything less than complete destruction of the aircraft doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Here is an old clip of a pair of 101st blackhawks with the very tips of their rotor blades contact each other.

Note the immediate disintegration of the right-hand aircraft. I think 7 died altogether?

You have to understand when those hit something, the force that transmits into the transmission and then into the frame and skin of the aircraft is phenomenal. I wouldn't believe the game if a helo survived such an event. At the most, you and any passengers would have to walk away seriously injured from an accident at very low and slow speeds (like the above link).

Rotor blades hitting a building and immediately exploding the whole helo with such force the building(s) next to it collapses is hardly the case that should happen.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Hi,

as we need to keep some consistency with other vehicles in game and how they are controlled, we don't plan to have switches buttons or complex start up sequence.

Honestly this to me is a failed approach just read the feedback in this tread. It's paid dlc. You want it to he successful. Give the people that are buying it what they want? And personally I think start ups are apart of what people want for the heli dlc.

I know as someone who is fully prepared to buy the heli dlc and has put his money where his mouth is when it comes to arma(owning all the series and dlc) it is what I want. It does not have to be a hugely complex start up. Don't worry about consistency of other vehicles focus on this dlc and make it all it can be. If (and I think you will) you see start ups being very welcomed. You know you made the right call.

Releasing the heli dlc without features people actually want and are asking for so to ( fit in with the other vehicles) is imo a bad move. Make it top qualty and let the word spread that arma 3 "DLC" is worth the money. And brings the game to another level.

[pettka 694]

Honestly this to me is a failed approach just read the feedback in this tread. It's paid dlc. You want it to he successful. Give the people that are buying it what they want? And personally I think start ups are apart of what people want for the heli dlc.

I know as someone who is fully prepared to buy the heli dlc and has put his money where his mouth is when it comes to arma(owning all the series and dlc) it is what I want. It does not have to be a hugely complex start up. Don't worry about consistency of other vehicles focus on this dlc and make it all it can be. If (and I think you will) you see start ups being very welcomed. You know you made the right call.

Releasing the heli dlc without features people actually want and are asking for so to ( fit in with the other vehicles) is imo a bad move. Make it top qualty and let the word spread that arma 3 "DLC" is worth the money. And brings the game to another level.

I would dare say that reading our blog about DLC strategy could make our intents a bit clearer :icon_twisted:

[enex 11]

I would like to see start up procedures but they haven't specify they would implement that.

"RotorLib Flight Dynamics Model (FDM), plus several new game mechanics"

If they would make start up procedures for all vehicles it would make sense but looks like big

undertaking, considering New helicopters in pipeline, RopeX, Firing from vehicles, making new map,

and further down the road Marksmen DLC.

Hopefully one day however they decide to implement it, but right now they are more important

things to deal with. (like archaic vehicle damage hitpoint system)

[Brisse 78]

Today new FM hot-fix will be out with reduced yaw and side-slip rates during forward flight. But it will work only if auto-trim is enabled.

Basically what probably went wrong, and thanks to Dslyecxi was very well shown in video, is a combination of simplified tail rotor simulation (not a blade element theory like main rotor) and not well balanced forces defined on rotor, fuselage and tail stabilizers. We will proceed with tweaking of all the values to give better simulation also to "full fidelity" enthusiasts ;)

Hey thats good news!

I hope you will keep working on this.

Just tried the WY-55 Hellcat (green) and if I hit full rudder at 250km/h I can get the thing to yaw 90 degrees and fly sideways at 250km/h. I don't think that's how it is supposed to handle :D

Not using auto trim by the way.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

I would dare say that reading our blog about DLC strategy could make our intents a bit clearer :icon_twisted:

I read the blog. Don't get what you mean by make it clearer in regards to why start ups are being left out. from what the doc said I gathered start ups were not being implemented because then you would have start ups for helis and not for other vhicles. Which I didn't see as a problem. But maybe there is more to it.

I do appreciate there are are big features being added like shooting from helis vehicles, and the flight dynamics. And a lot more pressing matters with reguards to the heli fm noted in the tread. I was just curious as to the reason behind start ups not being looked at. Guess can hope the start upscome about down the road in the arma expansion.

Anyway Cheers for taking timeout to reply.

[Brisse 78]

What does startup's add to the game? Why is it so important? Do you really think a majority of players will use it? I think those people are already busy playing DCS (I am one of those by the way). I don't think it will add anything besides an annoyance in the armaverse. When I want to do realistic startup sequences, I fire up a proper flight sim. I don't think it belongs in Arma to be honest, but I very much welcome the advanced flight model and look forward to the other features they announced.

[leshrack 50]

I read the blog. Don't get what you mean by make it clearer in regards to why start ups are being left out. from what the doc said I gathered start ups were not being implemented because then you would have start ups for helis and not for other vhicles. Which I didn't see as a problem. But maybe there is more to it.

I do appreciate there are are big features being added like shooting from helis vehicles, and the flight dynamics. And a lot more pressing matters with reguards to the heli fm noted in the tread. I was just curious as to the reason behind start ups not being looked at. Guess can hope the start upscome about down the road in the arma expansion.

Anyway Cheers for taking timeout to reply.

I think he is referring to the fact that the AFM is not part of the DLC and as such not something you would have to buy. The dlc will consist of content not features. Any features (shooting from vehicles, afm) will be included in the game via patch for everyone to enjoy where as the new choppers being included will only be pilotable by people having bought the dlc. At least that is how i have undersootd it. Personally though I think a startup procedure is a waste of time that doesn't add any value to the gameplay and if it were included that it would be alongisde a difficulty option to turn that off.

[worldsprayer 0]

Ok I tested the trim out, and it has been significantly improved. I took each helicopter up to 200kps (my standard test speed) and hit full left and right pedal. You only get about 35-45 degree deflection now. Except for the Mi-48. I take it you changed a tail rotor system...which the 48 doesn't have, and as such I can push it to red line, hit a pedal, and instantly flip around to 0kph and began a plummet to my death.

Further, I've had most of the issues being addressed here listed in the bug tracker at http://feedback.arma3.com/view_all_bug_page.php yet it seems things are being dealt with here instead, so i'll post findings to each place. The interesting bug to add on is that the Hellcat does not have yaw forces properly set. If you pick it up to a stable hover (any altitude) to hover and release all trim and auto hover and center controls, it will just sit there. If you decend, it'll turn left. If you climb it'll turn right. It's like the forces are balanced for the power needed to hover instead of at 0 rotor rpm.

But yay for the yaw fix, it makes flying easier as it's harder to flip the helos while turning now.

Edit: I'm assuming the odd yaw force settings is also what causes the hell cat, when in forward flight with no pedal inputs, at any speed, to constantly fly to the right. If you go to auto hover and release, it stops, but as soon as you fly forward it starts flying rightward until you give an autohover command.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Worldsprayer

[metralla 19]

The pilot's hand is not well synchronized with the lever and the movement of these lever and pedal controls are very sharp. If you turn off the engine in the air you can not restart the engine.

[worldsprayer 0]

If Orca's engine is shutoff in flight, the helicopter rolls over to the left when collective is dropped to 0. Also, Orca like hellcat seems to have no yaw forces while at stationary hover.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

The pilot's hand is not well synchronized with the lever and the movement of these lever and pedal controls are very sharp. If you turn off the engine in the air you can not restart the engine.

Actually you can, I did it by pushing the collective to 0 and then pulling up again. This actually sucked because I was practicing autorotations to see how they worked, and the engine kicked on and messed up my maneuver. I just tested it again, and yes the engine comes back online.

Edit: Ok it's not constant, I had 2 times it worked, 2 it didn't. Odd. Also I just realized that the helicopter shouldn't start up again. In real life if you ahd just cut your engines in flight, the air starter that wouldnt normally start ONE of your engines wouldn't be able to exert the force neccesary to start an engine AND turn the blades against moving air. Not being able to restart mid-air makes perfect sense.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Worldsprayer

[armored_sheep 56]

Auto rotation (fuel cut off) is now not possible, because engine start-up was removed and engine can be started using collective input (consistency with other vehicles). We are working on some solution.

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

weightRTD - returns [fuselage weight, crew weight, fuel weight, custom weight, weapons weight]

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Fixed in 126613

So there's actually another weight/mass system besides the one used by the setmass/getmass command?

[nodunit 397]

I'm curious, what is it you WANT to happen when the aircraft main rotor blades with INCREDIBLE stored kinetic energy impacts an immovable surface?

That is very very rarely a survivable experience, so taking the damage modifier to the max makes sense. Anything less than complete destruction of the aircraft doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The issue is less with the dieing and more about how you die, in that video you posted and videos anywhere on the net wherein a main rotor collides with a hard enough object the blades are sheared and the aircraft tumbles down, it doesn't just ignite and go boom. A lot of helicopter crashes occur at low level and its not uncommon to see them flip onto their side and obliterate their rotors, but at the same token the pilots still have a good chance to survive as opposed to here where one contact with the rotor or rolling onto the side means instant death. It's actually astonishing to see how many crashes people manage to walk away with in compilation videos (don't forget the seats are usually designed for impact)

Imagine this scenario in Arma 3

as soon as the cable or rotor blade hit the tower it would be an instant explosion, but you can clearly see the pilot moving and even get out and walk at 1:13. It also adds a gameplay element in terms of support.

For example, a transport helo is approaching a landing zone, a gust of wind comes out of nowhere and the rotors shear into a tree or other hard obstruction, the rotor blades are destroyed and the aircraft tumbles, leaving the crew and passengers stranded. Suddenly CSAR becomes meaningful, or they have to devise a plan to get away from their location, or other scenario's could occur that would make the game really stand out from the rest.

As it is right now however the scenario goes- approaching LZ, gust of wind, rotor or body taps tree, BOOM, all dead.

Edited August 8, 2014 by NodUnit