Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[armored_sheep 56]

I think the advanced flight model would be easier for keyboard and mouse users if collective raise was linear instead of quadratic or whatever it is right now.

Collective pitch angle settings are different for each helicopter but in most of the XML configs they are linear.

I.e. Heli_light01 has set Th0m= collective * 12.3 + 7 (collective is the mapped controller input with values from 0 up to 1)

[dr. hladik 231]

So useable switches and buttons inside the cockpit like in TKOH are not part of the new flight model? :(

Hi,

as we need to keep some consistency with other vehicles in game and how they are controlled, we don't plan to have switches buttons or complex start up sequence.

[BinaryMan 1]

I realise my first post might not have been very clear, in this following post I hope to make my ideas more clear:

I think the advanced flight model would be easier for keyboard and mouse users if collective up and down changed collective at a constant speed instead of a non-linear one. Currently tapping collective up or down does almost nothing. Collective up and down go from doing almost nothing for the first quarter to half second to moving quickly in a short span of time, which is really hard to use. By changing collective up and down to a constant movement speed it is easier to slowly engage or disengage the rotor blades. Currently the non-linear speed in which collective up and down proceed at makes this very difficult. In fact, multiple long presses of these collective up/down keys cause a nasty "stair case" effect.

"stair case" effect explained in more detail:

A simple maneuver like flaring for speed reduction (at constant altitude) becomes hard with a keyboard and mouse with non-linear collective change. During a flare it is almost always necessary to reduce the collective over a period of time. Holding down the collective down key is almost always too much, while pressing the key multiple times does not elicit enough collective change. What ends up happening is the collective is moving to fast during certain parts of the flare and to slowly during other parts when the key is pressed multiple times over the entire flare. This too little, then too much, then too little, etc... collective change is the nasty "stair case" effect.

By changing collective up and down a linear movement speed it becomes possible to slowly or quickly disengage the rotor blades by either tapping the key at a slow rate, fast rate, or holding the key down for maximum traversal.

My proposed solution to the current problem of collective change is the following:

Make collective up and down keys change collective by a constant rate of change.

Add 2 more key binding: Collective quarter step up/quarter step down. This will immediately change the collective up or down by 25%

Reasoning behind the Collective quarter step up/quarter step down is that it is sometimes necessary to quickly change the collective by a large amount, these two bindings preserve that.

Default keybindings (US keyboard):

constant collective up: "Q"

constant collective down: "Z"

Quarter collective step up "Shift + Q"

Quarter collective step down "Shift + Z"

It will most likely be important to experiment with 1/3 collective step up/step down. or other such values as 1/5 maybe even 1/6 or 1/2. In addition to this quarter collective step up/down might need to happen over a period of short time to reduce the immediate load the step brings on the rotor.

It would also be nice if you could add keybindings for constant turn left/right for ground vehicles. Currently you can get some "stair case" effect causing under steering followed by over steering.

Edited August 5, 2014 by BinaryMan

[Gutsnav 13]

I think that the new flight model really capitalizes on the fact that we need better MFDs and instruments. Playing with no magic gauges is really hard because many of the instruments don't work or are missing.

Also the Blackfoot does the "Backwards Taxi".

[Guest]

It's really wired to fly with a joystick (I use the FLY5).

It is configured as follow : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/32/1407234004-cyborgfly5.jpg

note that there are two throttle, one for lower and one for raise.

When I use the collective raise it works like a trigger and not a curseur.

I mean, if I push the curseur to 50% the thrust will go to 100% and not stop at 50%

That's why I can't use RotorLib properly, the thrust is uncontrollable.

[.kju 3239]

as we need to keep some consistency with other vehicles in game and how they are controlled, we don't plan to have switches buttons or complex start up sequence.

Can you please merge over the technology at least please (engine, configs, scripting) to allow the community to take care of that and expand it?

[cthulhu616 3]

It's really wired to fly with a joystick (I use the FLY5).

It is configured as follow : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/32/1407234004-cyborgfly5.jpg

note that there are two throttle, one for lower and one for raise.

When I use the collective raise it works like a trigger and not a curseur.

I mean, if I push the curseur to 50% the thrust will go to 100% and not stop at 50%

That's why I can't use RotorLib properly, the thrust is uncontrollable.

use analoge variants (a little lower in the binding's list) and use the same lever for up and down

[Guest]

use analoge variants (a little lower in the binding's list) and use the same lever for up and down

Thanks, my problem is fixed :D

[alleycat 28]

if you use rudder on ah-99 at greater speed then maybe 100kph it "passes out" apparently, going out of controll. Even with just very small rudder adjustements. As you can only use 0 or 1 with keyboard its impossible to use rudder with keyboard on this chopper.

Other helicopters are not as itchy. I#ve noticed on the wy55 that the heckrotor repeatedly keeps going into red when flying at max collective. (auto trimm off). Everytime it recovers you make a forced dive downwards. I'm not sure if this is realistic, but it makes it hard to fly at high collective. Maybe its supposed to be like that? Im no reallife pilot.

I fly with sidewinder 2 joystick, once you know what happens if you do this or that, its nice to controll. The only "helicopter flightsimulator" i playe before was arma2 vanilla :D So its definitely not too hard to get used to. Enabling Autotrim helps to learn, but even without i manage ok so far. You just have to avoid to give very sudden and strong reactions. Make changes slow and steady.

The forced dive you describe usually happens if you slow downto a near hover without sufficient upward lift. It is called Vortex Ring State. Basically you get sucked down into your own rotor wash. A very dangerous and realistic thing. And I dont think you can properly fly without a stick while having realistic helicopter physics. Also going 100% collective would cause problems too, in realistic sims you would get a high rotor RPM warning and the helicopter would get affected in a bad way

[dr. hladik 231]

;2746921']Can you please merge over the technology at least please (engine' date=' configs, scripting) to allow the community to take care of that and expand it?[/quote']

Not possible. It would take too much time.

[Rea3perPr0 10]

Hello there Bohemia Dev Team :)

As i am aware of the fact that this is just a test version inside the dev branch which i think (and hope)

is not yet to its final extend build and on the go, i must say you did what you promised as far as that by now.

Here is my personal feedback as a PPL owner and aviation maniac.

Implementation of TOH´s Flight Model and Manouverability:

Nicely done this far, controlls are very smooth in both flight and hover as i am used to it from TOH.

- I indeed adding minor tweaks to the connected Hardware: sensitivity Curve, Deadzone

(which is a usual thing to do for any experienced simulator pilot; you calibrate your hardware for the game not the other way around ...)

(reading posts like "OMG need to put my Stick nearly fully forward to hover" makes me think; well put away that chinaware and get some real Joystick/Experience in flying)

Panels and Gauges

- sure as you announced only the flight physic is curently in the dev-Branch but i really hope, as it would be not really worth a DLC just for the physics, for the implementation

of systems and related switches as in TOH. Including correct start-up and shut-down procedures, warm up and cool down phases.

- Visibility and monitoring WITHOUT Gauge overlay:

It felt sometimes hard to manage a clear view on my instruments in the MH-9. As well as a few not functioning Panels such as torque in the MH-9.

(I hope that this issue is going to be fixed in the final version by the new and reworked HD models of Helicopter Cockpits.

Rework? you may ask? Yes, f. e. the Mohawk is unstearable with Gauge overlay disabled, but thats how the Pro´s fly .. using in cockpit info ;))

Other

- Working wheels, ground taxi:

Oh my gosh fu** yeah!! (sorry for being so emotional) but i´ve been waiting for this since i first flew a Chopper in Arma 1 :D Thanks for the implementation of this feature :)

BUT as i give all the Pro´s a go! there are Con´s too.

Contra: Using the collective for forward movement on ground is somewhat wrong!

The collective only controls the rotor blades pitch and so the whole helicopters lift.

When you want to start a forward movement, you have to first increase a bit of pitch

(Taking away a bit of weight on the wheels due to lift, making it easier to start of)

and then tilt the rotorhead / swashplate into the desired direction, in this case forward.

Just for the phyics ;) if you could, would be nice to see this fixed ...

- as the DLC sets a big limitation to those unintroduced to advanced flight physics ;) "we" a A2/A3 Clan focused on military and tactical gameplay of a military SIMULATION

(Excuse the caps but Bohemia please do me the favour and rethink about this word when progressing your development)

Anyways, we as a tactical military SIMULATION clan (cant help me sorry :D) apreciate the limitations to Non-Pilots and would like to be able to force such Settings ;) onto servers and players via. a module or some other kind of script :)

- And @ the end but so import to me i even write it bold, even if its completely unrelated to the Helicopter DLC ;) PLEASE and i BEG YOU rethink the fixed wing flight physics, compared to A2 you´ve done a major backstep. Otherwise i have to think air in 2045 consists of 90% CO² changing its density to pudding!

This is my personal one and only hard critic point in the current A3 game .. as stated above i beg you to fix this OR how about a fixed wing DLC? :D :D :D squinting towards DCS A-10C ;)

I the rest of my post i hope the feedback helped you out on eyeballing the current state and what to do, fix, rework or in a positive way keep it at the current level of simulation you provided to our community.

best regards, Reaper.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Rea3perPr0

[samb 15]

After a lil more flight hours I agree:

1. Flight Experience:

• Translating tendency: It is reversed on a bunch of helicopters. Counter clockwise should require more left cyclic. Clockwise should require more right cyclic.
  
• Transitional lift: It needs to be stronger. When going from IGE hover to Transitional Lift with forward speed and same collective settings I hardly see any increase in climb rate.
  
• Ground Effect: I'm not sure if it is just own perception or not. It needs to be stronger. In ground effect hover, and out ground effect hover, don't seem to require that different of a collective setting.
  
• Darn no settling with power, or vortex ring state modeled.
  

I agree with rest of points as well, but tese 4 are top priority in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

;2746921']Can you please merge over the technology at least please (engine' date=' configs, scripting) to allow the community to take care of that and expand it?[/quote']

+100000

[byku 13]

Damn! Mi-48 is beautiful to fly! Although low fuel/ammo start is messed up ;) - you fly all over the altis

[worldsprayer 0]

Ok I'm a real world AH64 pilot so I will be posting my responses here too. I completely went nuts today when I saw this was up. My hope is actually to create RL training scenarios here. So I instantly came home and set it up. First, my setup is a logitech g940 HOTAS with saitek pedals (not the best for helos i know) setup to mimic apache controls to best of ability.

First thoughts:

Wildcat has no momentum. I accelerated to 200kph, level flight, torque and RPM in green (grey?). Initiated a pitchback maneuver to trade airspeed for altitude. Instantly aircraft is slowed to roughly 100kph and begins turn to the right from torque, with 35 degree change ntil aircraft resume level flight at end of maneuver. if pitch back (a very slight one) is held too long (more than 1 to 1.5 secs...very short) aircraft goes into uncontrolled right spin. Assumed fix: Wildcat requires more "mass".

Edit: Orca has same issue. 2 quick pitchbacks result in loss of aircraft control due to loss of airspeed. In real life this would result in minor bumps in altitude and losses of airspeed.

Edit: Orca is too easily capable of using yaw at highspeeds. 200kph should not allow even with full pedal input a lateral swing great enough to crash the aircraft (game currently does).

Edit: Initiated sudden dive in Orca: Airspeed initially bleeds to almost zero, aircraft flips and rolls and proveds to inverted spin. Second attempt, began increasing dive, at roughly 55 degrees nose dive aircraft rolled.

At the moment CMF (combat maneuvering flight) in an orca (assumed others will test later...its late here) is not possible. Aircraft too rapidly exchanged airspeeds. I have never seen an aircraft SLOW when entering a dive, yet this does. I have never seen an aircraft accell/decell 100kph in less than a second that wasn't a fighter jet (can they???). Current assumption is the aircraft either have no, or have an incorrect mass. Inertia would keep a fast helo fast, and a slow one slow. Windosocking is also not happening as it should. Once a helicopter passes through roughly 40knots, it effectively acts like an airplane. Once at 100 knots (160kph...ish) it IS an airplane. large yawing movements should not be possible.

Other note: FPV (flight path vector) should not be able to be in the sky yet still be decending. The dot represents the path in space your aircraft will travel at current power/airspeed. I can maintain a 10 fps decent yet have the FPV 3 fpv widths above the horizon.

Current conclusion: Aircraft is rapidly exceeding its capabilities, as the roll is occuring from Vne being exceeded, but the aircraft during the dive is not naturally compensating by pulling up (all systems seek balance). The result is a stable motion until redline and BAM the aircraft rolls out of no where istead of progressive states of roll and required forward cyclic. EDIT EDIT!!! BIG BIG BIG I just tested every helicopter. Each is capable at 200+ kph to yaw to a 90 degree yaw (at which point they obviously roll due to excessevice sidewards flight). This should in no way be possible, and is a key issue preventing realistive helicopter flight. Each aircraft at the speed should windsock into the wind preventing yawing motion. FURTHERMORE also related, as airspeed increases, the need for left pedal DECREASES in real life. Again this is from windsocking doing the work of keeping the aircraft level. A take off should require maximum left pedal at inital takeoff, and ass soon as aircraft passes through ETL (16-24 KTAS) the need for left pedal steadily decreases. Some aircraft in fact have such efficient tailrotors that they require RIGHT pedal at high speeds to counter their own thrust.

Oh...and please give us a trim ball...the only method right now to tell if you are flying in trim is to place the FPV over your reticle...thats annoying to chase around just to fly straight.

Further more...you have a velocity ball under the VSI instrument. It would be best if it changed with aircraft velocity. At hovering speeds (10 KTAS and less) the entire box represented 10 knots in either direction while above 10 ktas, the box represents say 60 or 80 ktas.

Again these are features from real aircraft and exist for a reason. Its been a fun night ive been up too long. Have a good one!

Edited August 5, 2014 by Worldsprayer

[mjolnir66 48]

Would it be possible to get destructible rotor blades? So that they smash off one they hit the ground.

[Bushmanni 10]

New FDM is definite improvement over the previous one, especially when using HOTAS. There's still some issues though that make the chopper unnecessarily hard to fly. Controls feel like they are heavily dampened but oversensitive. Chopper reacts very slowly to control inputs but you only need small input to get big response. While this is generally true for choppers, it seems like this characteristic is overdone. At high speed rolling doesn't like to stop itself but you need to stop it with opposite roll input. It's also very hard to make break turns at high speed as choppers with new FDM have overly pronounced tendency to dig in ie. if you turn too hard the chopper starts pulling more g's on its own. You need to be very careful with the tightness of the turn and it's very hard to keep constant g during the turn. I can't tell if all of this is due to some kind of dampening of flight control inputs or if there's some kind of imbalance of inertia and aerodynamic forces. Lack of windsocking is probably one factor with high speed turning problems.

[houldendub 10]

Love it love it love it. Flying feels so awesome with this model, never played ToH but this seems fantastic.

I think one of the only gripes I have is with how sensitive the collective raising and lower is (as in, not that sensitive). Not sure if people would agree, but due to the more arcadey feel of Arma, would it be worth (at least for keyboard + mouse users) making the collective raising and lowering instant? As in, when you press Q (or whatever you use for raise collective), it notches it up a point instantly, instead of having to hold it down for a second or so for it to raise it. Would make landings much more precise and stop the landing bouncing (raise collective to counteract dropping altitude, but due to having to wait for the collective to START lowering, by the time I hit the ground it simply bounces off and goes a couple meters in the air).

Also, is it worth having gauges for air speed and height AGL? These are already present in Arma's UI, I mean would it be possible to allow the user to select which gauges they want and where?

But yes, apart from those, very very impressed.

[csthor 10]

I have not yet put much time into the FM but there's already one thing I'd love to see changed: the wheelbrakes. The current on/off switch is IMO unnecessarily stringent and makes fine-dosed braking maneuvers very difficult. I have rudder pedals with toebrakes so I'd love to use them as such (as with the fixed-wing aircraft in the game).

[dr. hladik 231]

Keyboard collective not reacting linearly

This was introduced in TKOH, so you can make very small changes. It was really needed when you wanted to keep your helicopter stable.

It can be changed.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Awesome, it's good to have it in Arma 3. Though, we are looking forward to the tweaks. I've had better control of my helicopter on Extreme difficulty in TOH, than i do now on easy in Arma 3. If we can get the flight model to the fidelity we had in TOH, it'd be perfect.

EDIT: Loving the wheel brake, and taxing. <3

Edited August 5, 2014 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[Bouben 3]

This is exactly that kind of thread where I have nothing to say :D sorry for off topic

[KeyCat 131]

Great fun flying insertions/extractions with the MH-9 in bad weather and fully loaded with a squad and fuel she have to work hard. That being said helicopter weight would be another variable to show in the overlay but I'm sure you already thought about that with the upcoming slingload fature.

For judging the windspeed I found this neat addon by Ruthberg to be usefull.

/KC

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

A thought, to have an On Board GUI as well. I like it i can see what my heli is doing. But i think it'd be cool if i could disable the overlay, but see the same thing in the cockpit. Example, a throttle to see how much power i'm putting, and a few gauges for signs of failures, lights inside the cockpit. This would be a major improvement, and boost immersion ten fold. Also, i just really don't like the massive circles on my screen, so yeah, this would be SO much more helpful.

[Guest]

It's not about feedback but on the 3rd gauge there is a white point moving around a cross. What does it represent ?

[mistyronin 1181]

I like it i can see what my heli is doing. But i think it'd be cool if i could disable the overlay, but see the same thing in the cockpit. Example, a throttle to see how much power i'm putting, and a few gauges for signs of failures, lights inside the cockpit. This would be a major improvement, and boost immersion ten fold.

+1 I couldn't express myself better.