Arma 3 Helicopters DLC Discussion (dev branch)

[miketim 20]

I knew some guy who was/is a millitary pilot, he was supposed to pilot blackhawks and that type of stuff (not like attach helicopters)

and he also flew small planes for fun or somthing, and he played flight sims and arma all the time, I am pretty sure it didnt affect him.

Then again, maybe it affects some and not others.

Anyway, they can never make one true to life, so no one should ever expect being able to fly one in real life translating directly to a game, or vice versa :p, even if that would be ideal.

Gatordev I do see what you are saying about the whole sim nerds thing, I agree.

It is possible to make a realistic flight model without making like 94394324234-234320 key commands and some bs.

[FredAirland 14]

What he is saying, is that for him being an actual pilot, the practice of flying in a game, can be negative for a pilot in real life. Even when i went to an Airfield to take a pilot's test, my instructor told me not to play flight sims ever again, and it's for good reason.

I probably depends on the sim quality, HTR is being used extensively by pilots for training. I also had a canadian student who told me a story: This student had been practicing htr for fsx before his first lesson. The student was soo good at his first lesson his instructor drove 60 miles to his home to test HTR and really liked it a lot and encouraged him on practicing more....

[oksman 37]

I seriously hope they work a bit on the canons of the helicopters and possible maybe not INVERT the hud? It's soo confusing depending on your panels when they are indicating the opposite of what's really going on!

Flight mechanics is all good as a focus but without the weapons, flying is still going to be "Point towards enemy > Press R > Press fire > Repeat". ACE at least added laser guided hellfires etc, magnificent, hope we get stuff like that :)

And also, auto-rotation seems iffy to say the least in A3!

[gatordev 219]

What he is saying, is that for him being an actual pilot, the practice of flying in a game, can be negative for a pilot in real life. Even when i went to an Airfield to take a pilot's test, my instructor told me not to play flight sims ever again, and it's for good reason.

That's what I was getting at.

Look, I'm not knocking simulators, be it on your home computer or fancy commercial ones. I played innumerable hours of Jane's Longbow 2 before I went to flight school, and even though the flight model in that game was seriously jacked up for certain maneuvers, I definitely found understanding flying a real helicopter much easier as a result. Sims definitely have their place.

You have to practice everything in Arma, so this would not be an exception or something special. Also the current easy-flightmodel needs some little training. And btw, the TOH-flightmodel makes your helicopter more agile, so you also profit from using it. And since when is it less fun to get better at something?

I don't have the time to spend practicing everything in Arma, so spending the time practicing something that I find to be overdone (say like a flight model) isn't fun for me. It doesn't mean it's not fun for others, so that's where having the options selectable makes it work for everyone.

FWIW, I've messed around in ToH when it came out and then later when Franze was nice enough to let me beta test one of his creations, and I just found ToH to lack in fun (again, for me). I'm sure there's numerous reasons (controller fidelity, FOV), but again, I don't really want to spend the time screwing with all that (or having to pay money for a "better" controller) when I can just adjust things.

One last thought on sims. Even the really expensive ones aren't perfect (or anywhere near it). If I jump into a sim at work, the first few minutes have to spent on learning how to fly it because it's not the same as the real thing. Hovering is usually the hardest part for everyone, but there's plenty of other little glitches here and there that make it "different."

[quickvenge 10]

On the topic of controller fidelity. A request to the developers. Can you folks add a a slider that can tune the FCSRotationDamper on each axis? This is different from joystick sensitivity and linearity. From reading the wiki, this FCSRotationDamper configures the PID controller for stability augmentation, and can make the control inputs as whole more twitchy/harder to fly but more responsive or more stable easier to fly but less responsive.

[cochise 10]

Lots of good points, some I agree with and some I don't. I share most of Gatordev's opinions. In the real world I'm an airline pilot but in my past I was a flight instructor and dual rated fixed-wing / rotorwing pilot. I play TKOH or Arma for the immersion factor. The type of flying I do in my professional life is very different to that of what I like to do in my spare time. Having as many senses being stimulated as possible during the experience is what makes simulating something so amazing.

I have a love hate relationship with the TKOH flight model. It is challenging, and I have found it more difficult than the real thing. The last real world helicopter I flew was a Bell 212 so I figured I'd be an ace at flying the Medium Helo. Boy was I wrong! It handled more like a Robinson 22 on cocaine.

The use of sims while highly useful does have it's downfalls. Before I jump in the sim Every 6 months for my recurrent I use MS2004 to get myself used to the airport's taxi routes engine out departures and approaches for the route of flight that I have been given. Once I get into the sim I try to get into the mindset of "fly the computer game". You see some pretty ugly flying in the sim from some pretty good pilots. Once again this comes down to what gatordev was saying about learning to fly a whole different beast. Only so much can be modeled and I even switch back and forth between TKOH and Arma3 depending on how hard I want to work.

Touching on what fred64 has said, when I was a fixed-wing flight instructor the most natural student I had ever come across was an 11 year old boy who came out to the airport one day for a discovery flight. The only time I ever touched the controls for the flight were to taxi to the runway and add a little corrective rudder on the takeoff and the landing. He did every other control manipulation by himself and this was definitely because he had already developed the basic skills of flying from what he had learned at home.

The first time I watched Dslyecxi's helo videos I was amazed at how much control he had over the helicopter and was totally shocked when I read that he used a mouse. In the end it all comes down to the player and that's why personally I would like to see a wide variety of dynamics modeled but, with the option of being able to turn them on or off.

Just my 2 cents :)

[eliott 10]

I don't know what are you all talking about, I just can't wait to touch those new chopers !!! Hope there will be more than 2 ^^

[Snottus 1]

I would just like to add, that after having flown a real R22 Beta II, I am amazed at how well Dreamfoil has adapted the R22 into X-plane 10. I would recommend it to anyone interested in trying the R22 (the flight model is just incredibly well done).

Prior to my flight in the R22, I've had many many hours of flying the Huey, BS and Hippo in DCS. Now, as I haven't tried any of these choppers for real, I can't claim how realistic they are, but one thing's for sure, they teach you how to read and operate instruments and several dangerous flying conditions, such as VRS and engine shut-down for example. This comes in very handy when flying a real chopper.

I also have quite a few hours in TKOH, which is fun, but the choppers feel weightless and the flight model is somewhat off. Just my opinion mind you. Great fun tho.

The Arma series' flight models are arcadey imo. They're a Lot of fun to fly, but quite unrealistic. I've been waiting for a more advanced fm for the series since A2 was released, so here's to hoping this DLC will breathe new life into A3!

EDIT: Oh, and fred64, hurry up and finish already! ^^

[Brisse 78]

The Arma series' flight models are arcadey imo.

That's not an opinion, it's a fact :D

New flight models with the DLC is going to be a big step. Really glad they are doing this.

[kilroy the nerd 14]

I seriously hope that planes get upgraded with the flight model at some point, or at least are affected by winds.

Question though, does anyone know if this means we get all those buttons TKOH had? Although, I sadly doubt we're going to get the radio button back.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Same, heck I'd be overjoyed if they essentially brought TKOH to Arma 3 even if it wound up being an expansion full out at $30 or something, to have all of the systems that worked in TKOH would be suuuuch a huge step up...

The % of collective control vs a 0-100, your own real laser designator, actual functioning and cushioned landing struts with wheels behaving like wheels, just these few basic things would solve so many problems that many modders out there are trying to work around.

Oh man, real wheels? You cray-cray.

I'm glad I'm not the only guy who wants landing gear in general to be improved. It's pretty freakin' lacking as it is.

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

One thing I would request would be better track IR support for pilots. There are some really, really annoying restrictions on the view. It's not as bad as TOH (which made startup impossible using the in-cockpit switches with TrackIR) but there are times I find myself bumping up against the edges when I don't feel I should. But the biggest issue is the AWFUL way that the game handles the view for gunners using TrackIR. It should let TrackIR users have a fixed perspective as they pan the gun/camera. It's so disorienting and makes awareness pretty hard to maintain.

And a way for pilots to use TrackIR/Freelook to command fire or something for AI gunners would be awesome. If I recall that doesn't really work in the current system.

[doveman 7]

One thing I would request would be better track IR support for pilots. There are some really, really annoying restrictions on the view. It's not as bad as TOH (which made startup impossible using the in-cockpit switches with TrackIR) but there are times I find myself bumping up against the edges when I don't feel I should. But the biggest issue is the AWFUL way that the game handles the view for gunners using TrackIR. It should let TrackIR users have a fixed perspective as they pan the gun/camera. It's so disorienting and makes awareness pretty hard to maintain.

And a way for pilots to use TrackIR/Freelook to command fire or something for AI gunners would be awesome. If I recall that doesn't really work in the current system.

You could try the HeadRangePlus mod, that might help with the restrictions on view somewhat.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Any updates since they stated that they added some parameters for switching between the regular FDM and the new one?

[rasdenfasden 12]

I've always liked the way DCS deals with the first person camera, the way your head doesn't perfectly follow your vehicle's movement, for example when you apply a bit of roll and your head remains pretty upright. It gives you a much better sense of motion, which I find especially useful when flying the Huey.

I hope BIS will take a page out of their book, I think it has a surprisingly big impact on precise maneuvering, especially in the hover and landing department.

[Harudath 15]

I'm really glad BI is adding advanced features for the helicopters in ARMA 3; I spend most of my time flying helicopters in multiplayer, or trying to find an excuse to fly them :p I don't know about others, but I have spent many, many hours flying practice missions for that moment when your friends call for an emergency evac and you're the one on hand to do it. Definitely some of the most rewarding gaming experiences I've had so far, swooping in, landing between buildings, everybody piling in then making a hurried GT*O under fire.

Am also glad to hear there's an improved role for battlefield logistics, too. With any luck we'll see the Chinook make an appearance :p It's a shame there was not much use for the C-130 in Arma 2, though I digress.

Will there be a limit to the types of weapons that can be fired from the helicopters? I'm having nightmares of a Ghost Hawk flying past, two RPGs, or even Javelins, being aimed out both sides + miniguns blazing.

Finally, have there been any hints as to the helicopters we're going to see, and when we'll see them?

[nullrick 10]

Would the Helicopter DLC also fix the psition selction of where you'd want to sit in the helicopter? Like in either with the dreaded action menu or the pseudo-context keys (space/mid. mouse btn.)? Because I still bite my thumb at looking at a skid on the hummingbird but just be seating in either the copilot one of the back seats.

[chortles 263]

Am also glad to hear there's an improved role for battlefield logistics, too. With any luck we'll see the Chinook make an appearance :p It's a shame there was not much use for the C-130 in Arma 2, though I digress.

Ehhh, to be honest nothing about what BI has described as coming as part of (content-wise) or alongside (features-wise) the Helicopters DLC would be applicable to the C-130 other than maybe sling-loading, I dare say that helicopter sling-loading will definitely enhance certain missions or even enable new mission concepts.

Will there be a limit to the types of weapons that can be fired from the helicopters? I'm having nightmares of a Ghost Hawk flying past, two RPGs, or even Javelins, being aimed out both sides + miniguns blazing.

In the case of the Ghosthawk and Kajman, thankfully those anecdotes shouldn't come to fruition unless the devs have by then also also set up manual operation of the doors to open or closed positions...

Finally, have there been any hints as to the helicopters we're going to see, and when we'll see them?

BI has only mentioned that there'd be two heavy transport types, so until any more are revealed BLUFOR still relies on the Blackfoot for the (heavier) attack role to complement the Pawnee's light attack, while CSAT continues to rely on the Orca and the Kajman and AAF is for now still without an armed rotor-wing... EDIT: I forgot about the WY-55 Hellcat, my mistake.

Would the Helicopter DLC also fix the psition selction of where you'd want to sit in the helicopter? Like in either with the dreaded action menu or the pseudo-context keys (space/mid. mouse btn.)? Because I still bite my thumb at looking at a skid on the hummingbird but just be seating in either the copilot one of the back seats.

Sadly VBS2 has had Arma beat for years in this respect with their vehicle interaction menu... even though this may be a scripted workaround used by default in VBS2. Thankfully, someone made an Arma 3 equivalent mod back in the alpha days. Edited July 27, 2014 by Chortles

[nodunit 397]

Just got out of playing TKOH some more, for the love of whatever diety we need those wheels and hydraulics.

[nullrick 10]

It's just a shame that the action menu hasn't been killed off by now. I guess it'd make more work in making an actual context key more accurate.

But with the helicopters, I just want a chinook and an awesome futuristic osprey! Because... Futuristic! Yeah!

---------- Post added at 05:50 ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 ----------

a Ghost Hawk flying past, two RPGs, or even Javelins, being aimed out both sides + miniguns blazing.

2spooky4me

[littleturn 1]

...and AAF is for now still without an armed rotor-wing...

They do have an armed version of the Wildcat. It's the same as the Pawnee but at least the co-pilot has the optics in the nose.

Still, it is kind of lacking.

I do hope they add a similar DLC for fixed-wing aircraft as well. If they want to they could even do one for cars (opening doors, attaching cargo etc.) But I digress...

[blackpixxel 53]

I am just wondering why they didn't add the Wildcat-Loadout from Arma 2. The Hellcat is just a copy & paste littlebird, the Wildcat had a HE-Gau canon and 7 Laser guided missiles that where controlled by the copilot.

But there is copy paste everywhere, most mods have more options than the vanilla content..

[chortles 263]

I do hope they add a similar DLC for fixed-wing aircraft as well.

Probably not happening, considering how BI treated fixed-wing with even more blatant lip service than they did rotor-wing...

It's just a shame that the action menu hasn't been killed off by now. I guess it'd make more work in making an actual context key more accurate.

The funny-sad thing about this is, even VBS2's infamous "vehicle interaction screen"... is an action menu option ("Interact with <this vehicle>" in VBS3. FPDR Which means that for Arma 3 purposes there's a mod for that. (Although least the VBS3 implementation has a hotkey (U) for that option.)

[odie0351 67]

I am just wondering why they didn't add the Wildcat-Loadout from Arma 2. The Hellcat is just a copy & paste littlebird, the Wildcat had a HE-Gau canon and 7 Laser guided missiles that where controlled by the copilot.

I've been wondering the same thing. Instead of more copy and paste crap we'd have an aircraft with its own unique loadout.

I'm half ass surprised they didn't do copy/paste armaments for the fixed wing aircraft :(

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

I am just wondering why they didn't add the Wildcat-Loadout from Arma 2. The Hellcat is just a copy & paste littlebird, the Wildcat had a HE-Gau canon and 7 Laser guided missiles that where controlled by the copilot.

But there is copy paste everywhere, most mods have more options than the vanilla content..

I dare say because it just didn't fit in with the feeling for the Altis Armed Forces. Having said that a version with a twin-shot Titan pod would have been nice to see.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I dare say because it just didn't fit in with the feeling for the Altis Armed Forces. Having said that a version with a twin-shot Titan pod would have been nice to see.

Not even just that, the AAF have gun pods on their Buzzard, the same Gun Pod capable (and they do this in real life) of being mounted on the Helicopter where the mini guns are. It would have made much more sense, and it would make up for the lack of main attack helicopter at the moment. Something like an Armed EC-155, and un armed version for the civilians would have been more ideal than a copy pasted Wildcat from Arma 2 though. The model just simply doesn't look as good as other Arma 3 content.

Edit: Rotor-Lib inbound for beginning of next month to DEV branch.