Authentic Gameplay Modification

[R3vo 2654]

if (isClass (configFile >> "CfgPatches" >> "AGM_Core")) then {
 blah
} else {
 blub
}

Awesome, thanks!

[brightcandle 114]

A recent version of AGM has changed silencers again, specifically a reduction to 0.9 hit even when using normal ammo. This isn't a real world impact of a suppressor, its a gaming trope so I wanted to lay out the facts for you and hopefully convince you to change it back to 1.0 and pursue a different strategy for these accessories.

Suppressors don't decrease muzzle velocity of the rounds, if anything they can increase it slightly. They don't change the ballistics of the bullet in any way at all they are just a type of flash hider. They actually hide the flash really well. So this means any round fired from a gun will maintain all its energy just like it would as if the suppressor wasn't there. So reductions in muzzle velocity are wrong, reductions in damage are wrong these are not the reality of what balances suppressors. Games like COD and Battlefield and such use this trope but its not the way it should be balanced for Arma and the sort of people that use your mod.

Suppressors only really reduce the volume by about 10-20Dba. That is they take a 110 Dba gun shot and drop it down to 90 odd, which is sort of safe for the human ear verses very damaging and hence needing ear plugs. Admittedly that is up to 1/4 the volume of the previous sound but you can still hear that from quite a distance away.

Suppressors only really move into the silenced department when you also use SD rounds. The sub sonic rounds are a lot quieter and combined with the suppressor actually can significantly reduce the range of notice of the weapons but obviously its travelling a lot slower with a lot less powder energy behind it.

The real world downsides of suppressors are on three fronts:

1)They lengthen the gun and add a bit of weight. The extra length is an issue in close quarters, its hard to get around doorways and so you can't go around with the gun up indoors, I don't think Arma 3 can model this well right now, FPS games don't do depth perception well and knocking into doorways was a major gripe of Arma 2 and still is to an extent an issue in Arma 3. Its part of the whole clunky aspect of the game and I don't know if you have any power to do this in the current engine.

2) The second disadvantage is that they get hot. They absorb all the hot gases and as a result they heat up quite quickly. On full auto you can have them mechanically fail with about 45 bullets through them, they will heat up and warp and then a bullet will strike them and they blow to pieces turning them into shrapnel. The end result is they limit the fire rate and as they go through heating and cooling cycles they unscrew. Just when the silencer is near its point of failure its also so hot its all but impossible to get it off with your combat gloves providing no where near enough protection from the red hot metal. This is something I suspect you could model to an extent.

3) Recoil. The placement of a suppressor means all the gases are going to be captured by the end of the gun, instead of a usual M4/other flashhider where usually in military use a hybrid flash hider and recoil dampening hider is used. Thus the full recoil of the gun will be experienced rather than the somewhat reduced one of the usual flash hider or the massively reduced recoil of a very flash exposing but recoil reducing muzzle end.

So can I urge AGMs developers to think about the realities of suppressors and silencers when they are working with these values. I don't want the usual tropes implemented I want something as close to reality as possible. It would be nice for example to have the suppressors get hot and need to cool down but until that point allow us to choose how we deal with that. But tweaking the damage values down or velocity and other tropes isn't the way to go about balancing these items. Implementing as much of the true downsides of the suppressors as possible IMO is the way to move forward and help differentiate Arma from other games and teach people something about how this works in the real world.

[Jackal326 1181]

A recent version of AGM has changed silencers again, specifically a reduction to 0.9 hit even when using normal ammo. This isn't a real world impact of a suppressor, its a gaming trope so I wanted to lay out the facts for you and hopefully convince you to change it back to 1.0 and pursue a different strategy for these accessories.

Suppressors don't decrease muzzle velocity of the rounds, if anything they can increase it slightly. They don't change the ballistics of the bullet in any way at all they are just a type of flash hider. They actually hide the flash really well. So this means any round fired from a gun will maintain all its energy just like it would as if the suppressor wasn't there. So reductions in muzzle velocity are wrong, reductions in damage are wrong these are not the reality of what balances suppressors. Games like COD and Battlefield and such use this trope but its not the way it should be balanced for Arma and the sort of people that use your mod.

Suppressors only really reduce the volume by about 10-20Dba. That is they take a 110 Dba gun shot and drop it down to 90 odd, which is sort of safe for the human ear verses very damaging and hence needing ear plugs. Admittedly that is up to 1/4 the volume of the previous sound but you can still hear that from quite a distance away.

Suppressors only really move into the silenced department when you also use SD rounds. The sub sonic rounds are a lot quieter and combined with the suppressor actually can significantly reduce the range of notice of the weapons but obviously its travelling a lot slower with a lot less powder energy behind it.

The real world downsides of suppressors are on three fronts:

1)They lengthen the gun and add a bit of weight. The extra length is an issue in close quarters, its hard to get around doorways and so you can't go around with the gun up indoors, I don't think Arma 3 can model this well right now, FPS games don't do depth perception well and knocking into doorways was a major gripe of Arma 2 and still is to an extent an issue in Arma 3. Its part of the whole clunky aspect of the game and I don't know if you have any power to do this in the current engine.

2) The second disadvantage is that they get hot. They absorb all the hot gases and as a result they heat up quite quickly. On full auto you can have them mechanically fail with about 45 bullets through them, they will heat up and warp and then a bullet will strike them and they blow to pieces turning them into shrapnel. The end result is they limit the fire rate and as they go through heating and cooling cycles they unscrew. Just when the silencer is near its point of failure its also so hot its all but impossible to get it off with your combat gloves providing no where near enough protection from the red hot metal. This is something I suspect you could model to an extent.

3) Recoil. The placement of a suppressor means all the gases are going to be captured by the end of the gun, instead of a usual M4/other flashhider where usually in military use a hybrid flash hider and recoil dampening hider is used. Thus the full recoil of the gun will be experienced rather than the somewhat reduced one of the usual flash hider or the massively reduced recoil of a very flash exposing but recoil reducing muzzle end.

So can I urge AGMs developers to think about the realities of suppressors and silencers when they are working with these values. I don't want the usual tropes implemented I want something as close to reality as possible. It would be nice for example to have the suppressors get hot and need to cool down but until that point allow us to choose how we deal with that. But tweaking the damage values down or velocity and other tropes isn't the way to go about balancing these items. Implementing as much of the true downsides of the suppressors as possible IMO is the way to move forward and help differentiate Arma from other games and teach people something about how this works in the real world.

As for realistic implementation, you can increase the inertia/sway due to the slight increase in weight, and give them geometry (if they don't already have them) to prevent clipping on doorways (and introduce the feel of the rifle being more cumbersome). The third point is a simple config entry that doesn't alter the recoil.

[MrSanchez 243]

So can I urge AGMs developers to think about the realities of suppressors and silencers when they are working with these values. I don't want the usual tropes implemented I want something as close to reality as possible. It would be nice for example to have the suppressors get hot and need to cool down but until that point allow us to choose how we deal with that. But tweaking the damage values down or velocity and other tropes isn't the way to go about balancing these items. Implementing as much of the true downsides of the suppressors as possible IMO is the way to move forward and help differentiate Arma from other games and teach people something about how this works in the real world.

If anything like overheating suppressor is even considered, I vouch for it to be absolutely optional (module wise or so).

I play ArmA because its a fun military sandbox game and not because of all em realism - AGM so far has balanced realism and gameplay quite well and that's why me and my community use it.

I don't know the real reason why suppressors decrease hit value, but afaik there aren't any SD mags in ArmA 3 by default, are there? Only modded weapons have some SD variants.

So probably the lack of subsonic magazines was compensated by decreasing the initial hit value of the weapon. Although I remember that AGM added AP mags for Katiba and MX, makes me wonder why they didn't go forth and create SD mags as well?

Kind regards,

Sanchez

[esteldunedain 10]

A recent version of AGM has changed silencers again, specifically a reduction to 0.9 hit even when using normal ammo. This isn't a real world impact of a suppressor, its a gaming trope so I wanted to lay out the facts for you and hopefully convince you to change it back to 1.0 and pursue a different strategy for these accessories.

Thanks @BrightCandle. That's a very good explanation about how this things should work. However, AFAIK that 0.9 coefficient was introduced by BIS and not AGM. We could eventually try to revert it in AGM overriding the vanilla value though.

The real world downsides of suppressors are on three fronts:

1)They lengthen the gun and add a bit of weight. The extra length is an issue in close quarters, its hard to get around doorways and so you can't go around with the gun up indoors, I don't think Arma 3 can model this well right now, FPS games don't do depth perception well and knocking into doorways was a major gripe of Arma 2 and still is to an extent an issue in Arma 3. Its part of the whole clunky aspect of the game and I don't know if you have any power to do this in the current engine.

Well, at least now they contribute to weapon inertia, so this is modeled in A3 to some point.

2) The second disadvantage is that they get hot. They absorb all the hot gases and as a result they heat up quite quickly. On full auto you can have them mechanically fail with about 45 bullets through them, they will heat up and warp and then a bullet will strike them and they blow to pieces turning them into shrapnel. The end result is they limit the fire rate and as they go through heating and cooling cycles they unscrew. Just when the silencer is near its point of failure its also so hot its all but impossible to get it off with your combat gloves providing no where near enough protection from the red hot metal. This is something I suspect you could model to an extent.

This is a very interesting idea that could be addressed in AGM_Overheating. IDK if we could go all the way to destroying the silencers, but we can at least significantly increase the rate at wich your gun heats up.

3) Recoil. The placement of a suppressor means all the gases are going to be captured by the end of the gun, instead of a usual M4/other flashhider where usually in military use a hybrid flash hider and recoil dampening hider is used. Thus the full recoil of the gun will be experienced rather than the somewhat reduced one of the usual flash hider or the massively reduced recoil of a very flash exposing but recoil reducing muzzle end.

Modelling this may be possible too.

[serjames 357]

Our community would be fully supportive to anything that helped to model the "dis-advantages" of running with Suppressors.

I see too many idiots running around with them bolted onto the end of their gun... because they can and it's Tacticool.... with none of the disadvantages, realities of the circumstances of using them

Good post BrightCandle

[domokun 515]

Our community would be fully supportive to anything that helped to model the "dis-advantages" of running with Suppressors.

I see too many idiots running around with them bolted onto the end of their gun... because they can and it's Tacticool.... with none of the disadvantages, realities of the circumstances of using them

Good post BrightCandle

Well said mate.

Regarding the "optional" nature of this feature, IIRC, all of AGM's features are optional, i.e. if you don't like a particular feature then you remove the .pbo from @AGM's Addons folder

[-PzGrenBrig37-commy2 10]

Although I remember that AGM added AP mags for Katiba and MX, makes me wonder why they didn't go forth and create SD mags as well?

There are SD mags for 5.56 and 6.5. Check the VA.

Issue is that they won't work anymore after the Marksman-DLC, because the muzzle velocity will be overwritten by the weapons initSpeed with the next update of Arma.

[heinzmcdurgen 10]

Already in - interact with someone and you can copy their map

Any word on this? When I've used it nothing from their map is copied to mine - markers, lines, nothing. Has anyone gotten this to work or know what is supposed to be copied?

[korea115 19]

Any possible future for an update to select your own explosives code or already existing code so that you can have multiple demo blocks to daisy chain on command? and have the explosives menu similar to the medical menu where you dont need to reopen AGM menu to set off each explosive?

[jonpas 293]

@korea115

Already requested and I believe in progress.

[soulis6 24]

Idk, maybe it's just me, but couldn't we reasonably assume that anyone who would equip a silencer would also switch out magazines for SD ammo? Otherwise what's the point of having the silencer on there, some minimal sound reduction? It would seem to me the standard shooter convention of just silencers firing standard bullets at a slower velocity is a useful shorthand for firing SD ammo without having to have more stuff to clutter up inventories and have to have players hunt to find and equip.

I'm torn on the idea of overheating silencers, I don't think i'd like it unless it was implemented really well, with some sort of easy way of checking or telling how hot it's getting (maybe heat haze coming off the barrel?), but it's an interesting idea to make players consider the drawbacks of using silencers more. And I admit it would be fun to watch someone scramble out of firefight not being able to shoot or take their silencer off because they were firing too quickly for too long.

Extra recoil and inertial sway seem like good ideas to me as well, that would be easier to implement I'd think.

[-TMN-Stump 10]

I remember reading some where about setting up an area/trigger that allows the use of epi pens. So if your out side the area the epi pens can not be used in effect creating the need for CASEVAC. I can not find it (starting to think i dreamt it) i searched both this thread and google to no avail. Found a several posts on CASEVAC but nothing that pertained to a designated area for a medical function. Any help with either code for a trigger or a link to the info would be helpful. If in fact i did dream it up sorry to waist your time.

I appreciate all the hard work and time you guys have put into AGM!!

[lecks 26]

Not sure if its been reported, but there seems to be a bug with AGM where I sometimes can't see the grenades I'm cycling between

We're also having this problem.. but it's very intermittent. Haven't been able to work out what causes it to stop working. Can anyone point me to the file where this custom grenade switching is handled so we can try to fix or remove it?

[dayglow 2]

Idk, maybe it's just me, but couldn't we reasonably assume that anyone who would equip a silencer would also switch out magazines for SD ammo? Otherwise what's the point of having the silencer on there, some minimal sound reduction? It would seem to me the standard shooter convention of just silencers firing standard bullets at a slower velocity is a useful shorthand for firing SD ammo without having to have more stuff to clutter up inventories and have to have players hunt to find and equip.

I'm torn on the idea of overheating silencers, I don't think i'd like it unless it was implemented really well, with some sort of easy way of checking or telling how hot it's getting (maybe heat haze coming off the barrel?), but it's an interesting idea to make players consider the drawbacks of using silencers more. And I admit it would be fun to watch someone scramble out of firefight not being able to shoot or take their silencer off because they were firing too quickly for too long.

Extra recoil and inertial sway seem like good ideas to me as well, that would be easier to implement I'd think.

if fired at a decent distance the opfor would only hear the bullet crack as it passed by vs hearing the report of the weapon being fired and knowing the direction the shot came from. They would know they are under fire, but not from where.

[nomisum 129]

Stump;2873857']I remember reading some where about setting up an area/trigger that allows the use of epi pens. So if your out side the area the epi pens can not be used in effect creating the need for CASEVAC. I can not find it (starting to think i dreamt it) i searched both this thread and google to no avail. Found a several posts on CASEVAC but nothing that pertained to a designated area for a medical function. Any help with either code for a trigger or a link to the info would be helpful. If in fact i did dream it up sorry to waist your time.

I appreciate all the hard work and time you guys have put into AGM!!

Its a setting in the medical module. Simply put it on YES, then sync module with trigger area. Works wonderfully.

[The Hebrew Hammer 10]

Is there something else about AGM_AI that enhances the spotting ability of AI?

I ask because I lowered the spotting value to ~.65 from .9 in the config.bin and repacked the .pbo, similar results in AI shooting through trees and brush. Does _config.txt need to be present in the .pbo, when I packed it using Arma 3 Tools it removed that and only kept config.bin (which I modified as well to the same values mentioned previously).

[koffeinflummi 96]

Any word on this? When I've used it nothing from their map is copied to mine - markers, lines, nothing. Has anyone gotten this to work or know what is supposed to be copied?

I just did that in a play session a few days ago. Worked fine. Keep in mind that markers behave just like they do in vanilla. It's just lines that are local and need to be copied.

Is there something else about AGM_AI that enhances the spotting ability of AI?

I ask because I lowered the spotting value to ~.65 from .9 in the config.bin and repacked the .pbo, similar results in AI shooting through trees and brush. Does _config.txt need to be present in the .pbo, when I packed it using Arma 3 Tools it removed that and only kept config.bin (which I modified as well to the same values mentioned previously).

I don't think there's anything in AGM_AI that would increase the spotting ability of the AI. However, when editing something about AGM I would recommend directly using the source code and not debinarizing it:

https://github.com/KoffeinFlummi/AGM/tree/master/AGM_AI

[domokun 515]

if fired at a decent distance the opfor would only hear the bullet crack as it passed by vs hearing the report of the weapon being fired and knowing the direction the shot came from. They would know they are under fire, but not from where.

This is why certain troops are issued with SD ammo. The ammunition has a different charge that lowers its muzzle velocity to less than the speed of sound, i.e. sub-sonic. The reason is that when subsonic there is no CRACK that could alert enemy troops and help them locate the shooter. Also subsonic ammo tends to have less muzzle flash. So when combined with a suppressor, very often the loudest sound is from the weapon itself, that is mechanically cycling. The British produced one of the quietest rifles ever based on this principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine

"Tests of this showed the weapon had adequate accuracy, produced no visible muzzle flash and was inaudible at a distance of 50 yards (46 m). Subsequent official firing tests recorded the De Lisle produced 85.5 dB of noise when fired. As a comparison, modern testing on a selection of handguns has shown that they produce 156 to 168 dB when firing without a suppressor, and 117 to 140 dB when firing with one fitted."

So yes it would be fantastic if the ammunition and/or suppressor influenced the AI's ability to detect the sound and muzzle flash of the shooter.

Can someone confirm that this already the case in A3 and/or with AGM?

[TECAK 73]

Make automatic shooting traps for aviation

[Brisse 78]

Hello! I'm an addon maker, and I'm wondering what AGM_BulletMass is used for. Anything important? Wind? Terminal ballistics?

[jonpas 293]

Hello! I'm an addon maker, and I'm wondering what AGM_BulletMass is used for. Anything important? Wind? Terminal ballistics?

AGM_BulletMass gives bullets some mass in short. It's used in calculations for overheating, enables it basically.

Here is an example: https://github.com/KoffeinFlummi/AGM/wiki/For-Addon-Makers#weapon-jamming-and-overheating-simulation

[R3vo 2654]

Is is just me whose game freezes when looking through scopes/rangefinder when using agm ?

[malcom86 33]

Is is just me whose game freezes when looking through scopes/rangefinder when using agm ?

I would say yes as I do a large use of them and never had any problem, neither I heard of someone having any...

[R3vo 2654]

I would say yes as I do a large use of them and never had any problem, neither I heard of someone having any...

That's strange, I've just tested it again, without AGM but with all other mods. And it works again now.