Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Uhm, well right now although IMO Russia is a pseudodemocracy ( some essential rights are restricted ), I don't really think that he needs to rig any elections.

Putin is trying to build a Great Russia ( like the old Empires, like the Third Reich ), expanding it's influence and territory. For what I could see Russian people seem to like that; after all is a great boost to the injured self esteem after the Cold War.

In fact Putin has badly failed on the economic area, basing his power on oligarchy and corruption. Russia hardly exports only raw materials, and mainly energy. The Russian industry is widely outdated, small business is very scarce. A great part of the resources who could be used for economic development is diverted by corruption : Putin and his clique are stealing their own country wealth.

So what's the only way to stay in power ? Modifying the constitution as he did, and follow the Kim Jong Un way to control a country : paranoia (fascists at the gate) and nationalist feeling, mixed with USSR "rose tinted glasses" nostalgia.

I'd say i'm sad to see such a great country, with such a great history, great artists and scientists, etc. being absolutely unable to evolve and progress.

Edited March 23, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[kireta21 13]

Seems that more than the Duma, was Zhirinovsky motu proprio who sended the letter.

We will see it now. Sending proposition this outrageous in name of Duma can damage Russia's international image even more. Reaction is given.

If he's put in his place by his superiors (chairman, president or prime minister) it's likely just him messing around.

[arttem 1]

In 2013 Putin said to Zhirinovsky:

"I have to you a big request. I think that there is no need to heat one of the part of your electorate to strengthen it to the detriment of fundamental interests of our country". My translation in few words. And as i remeber it was the second warning to him from president.

http://ria.ru/politics/20131106/975122762.html

It seems that our clown will be punished again.

He always sending crazy letters.

He was sending stupid letters to Bush, Obama, Kadirov and many others. Ofcourse he is crazy. But welcome to democracy. He have a right to speak and show his point of view.

P.S. He don't have any real support of masses im my country.

Edited March 24, 2014 by ArtTem

[Amra 10]

It never stops me from amusement how some our western friends can think in two separate threads. "Elections in Russia are rigged" - "Zhirinovsky has 11%", "There is no freedom of speech in Russia, you can't criticize Putin" - "Illarionov said this and that..." etc, "Kosovo, West and East Germany" - "what we see in Crimea is annexation", "Ukrainian representative in UN justify nazi-past of UPA" - "there are no nazis in Ukraine - it's Putin propaganda" and so on. You guys wander in darkness -)

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/441180/Ukrainski-oficer-Nie-wiemy-co-robic-Kijow-Jestescie-bohaterami/

- All base in the Crimea are already Russian - speaking for TVN24 Wladyslaw Kajczenko, one of the officers in Evpatoria antiaircraft units in the Crimea. It is one of the few who did not join the Russian military forces, but admits that "does not know what to do with myself." Kiev does not provide clear instructions.

Many, very many soldiers have joined the Russians. Only about 20 percent were faithful Kyiv. The rest of it is with the Russians - Kajczenko said.

We call to Kiev, but nothing is known - he said.

Kiev, in turn, argues that "all heroes", that Ukrainian soldiers in the Crimea, have clear orders "defense and hold positions."

Ukrainian troops are put before dramatic choices - either stick with Ukraine and return to the country, or go over to the Russians side and be able to stay in the Crimea, where many of them have their own families.

[vilas 473]

we not wander in darkness:

- there are nazis in Ukraine but when compare to Zhyrinovsky, some commies dreaming about occupation of other countries like in USSR era + Putin nationalists percent - there are more such extremists in Russia than in Ukraine, nazis in whole Ukraine are at the same % number as in Russia Zyrinovsky is , number of nazis will increase in Ukraine when Ukraine will be pushed by Russia - it is natural that foreign intervention bear nationalism in every country,

- West and East Germany unification is totally different situation, those countries were divided by after WW2 politics and once again Stalin politics (he made problems in Europe after WW2 like for example moving groups of people from 1 nation to territory of 2nd nation),

- Kosovo/Serbia issue is similar in theory to Crimea but in facts there were war crimes in Serbia and Kosovo, cannot compare zone in which there were crimes with zone when only beaten were so far Ukrainians , those 2 situation look similar only in theory, in practis they look different, cause there was no Ukrainian attacking and murdering Russians in Crimea (than whole war and military intervention would be justified, if Ukrainians would for example kill several Russians in Crimea I would be supporting Putin intervention, but so far Ukrainians did not make one thing that can be compared to situation in Kosovo and Serbia in 90s)

- giving Crimea independence is not anexation, if Crimea would vote for independence than we would not blame Putin , but adding Crimea to Russia is anexation of other country administrative territory to other country using force (plus taking property of Ukrainian army, navy, Ukrainian state, not only land)

and can you tell me how it is possible that in region where Russians are 58% they have 96% of support (while Tatars and Ukrainians claim to vote against , how it is possible that support is much bigger than number of people that could support)

there was voting 83% officially and 96% supported

0.83*0.96=0.8

so, 80% of "population" vote for

Russians are 58%, Tatars are 12.5 %, Ukrainians are 24.5%, Ukrainians and Tatars are against , 24.5+12.5=38

80+38=118%

really nice result of voting , even basic math operation show that probably voting was falsified , result that i would believe would be ca.58% for ca.42% against, but not 80% for and 38% against cause it gives 118%, such referendum should be under UN observation, casue for me and for many people it was falsified

if Tatars who were deported by Stalin in 1944 to another country would return or not be deported , Ukrainians + Tatars > Russians in this area, cause when you say about history right of Russia to Crimea you should remember that half or more than half of Tatar population who lived there was deported post WW2 from there and Russians were brought there by USSR politics

Edited March 24, 2014 by vilas

[Amra 10]

96.77% of those who voted which is 83.01%. What's the problem?

[vilas 473]

Ukrainians are 24-25%, Tatars are 12-13%, they were against as they say , their sume is nearly 40% of people who would be against

80% (83%*96%) + 40% = 120%

[Amra 10]

Ukrainians are 24-25%, Tatars are 12-13%, they were against as they say , their sume is nearly 40% of people who would be against

80% (83%*96%) + 40% = 120%

Where did they say that?

[Rydygier 1302]

Putin has to lose

Since the outbreak of the crisis , Putin still played the exacerbation of the crisis. After the fall of Yanukovych could try to come to terms with the new Ukrainian government, and chose the attack on the Crimea. Then he could stop the referendum in the Crimea, and accelerated it. He could restrain from immediate annexation of the peninsula, and he did the anexation. So I'm afraid that once again will choose a radical solutio , for example, on Transnistria or eastern regions of Ukraine. Then the EU will have no choice : it must impose severe restrictions .

The question is whether they will be effective?

Europeans underestimate the possibilities at their disposal to hit the Russian economy. Russia is only the regional power, it has the national income in size of the Netherlands. It is extremely dependent on exports of oil, gas and other raw materials. West has so much more leverage on Russia than once had on Soviet Union. It is already clear after how the Moscow stock market collapsed, the ruble . True, Putin at the moment pays no attention , he has Soviet mentality and is surrounded by people who think like him. But when the sanctions will lead to a deep crisis in Russia will have to go back, because Russian society supports his regime not only because he restores the empire, but also because provides a wealth of the middle class.

The Kremlin announced in that case, revenge. How much West will suffer?

A trade war with Russia would be much less costly than an operation to rescue Greece. The latter set the Union in front of the problem of even existential survival of the Community. In the case of Russia, there is a significant, but still only point costs for Western countries, such as smaller investment for the City of London, less export of Polish food producers or broken contracts for French shipyards in Saint- Nazaire.

Putin thinks in terms of zero-one: if someone gains, someone has to lose. He is unable to think in other categories. He does not understand that the strengthening of cooperation between Ukraine and the EU may also be beneficial for Russia and help in its modernization. Therefore, immediately recognized, that great geopolitical game being played and subordinated his strategy in Ukraine to that.

What I said earier. Putin sees enemies and threats, where potential partners and opportunities are. Obsolete, imperial mentality blinds him.

Who is winning in this game?

After what he did in the Crimea, Putin has in the long run lose. Now has only two options. Will continue to act radically, leading Russia to a growing isolation from the rest of the world or withhold pressure on Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia, which will mean the collapse of his great project for the reconstruction of the Russian empire, because after what had happened, these countries have become extremely anti-Russian. It is true that Putin is playing much better than the West, but he has far worse cards. If the Union does not commit the cardinal error - must win.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rydygier

[Beagle 684]

The whole issue is not really about Ukraine and I really don't think anyone gives a rats ass about the Ukraien at all.

Regarding sanctions, it is not necessarily about Russia but about the euro as a reserve currency.

Russia and China shift their foreign exchange reserves to the benefit of Euro and Russia take some gas operations in euro.

This brings America pressurized by a gigantic trade deficit, a huge national debt and barely competitive products on the world market.

This can only be compensated by printing new dollar bills, but if it does it is no more takers and by Russia and China even flow of dollars into the world economy, there is in America, the risk of hyperinflation and therefore to the euro and the European economy as a whole be weakened.

I think the U.S. stands with his back to the wall and is now taking advantage of a decade of provocations now finally having a usable effect.

[vilas 473]

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/tatar-leader-says-crimean-tatars-boycotted-phony-referendum/

about Tatars/Muslims there

but Ukrainians after 20 years of having their own state would vote aginst this state ? i doubt

such result as Russia claims could be only possible if all of Ukrainians would support to join to Russia , Russians are 58%, to gain 83% voters you need 25% more than Russians (83-58=25)

even if 100% of Russians would vote, it would give 58% , if voted all Ukrainans than it make 83% but i doubt that 100% Ukrainians want to be in Russia and not Ukraine

Russians there are 58%, it is impossible to have 96% of support in 83% referendum when Ukrainians want their country (and language) and Tatar/Muslims do not want to be in Russia (in case of Muslims also Chechen case)

[Amra 10]

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/tatar-leader-says-crimean-tatars-boycotted-phony-referendum/

about Tatars/Muslims there

but Ukrainians after 20 years of having their own state would vote aginst this state ? i doubt

such result as Russia claims could be only possible if all of Ukrainians would support to join to Russia , Russians are 58%, to gain 83% voters you need 25% more than Russians (83-58=25)

even if 100% of Russians would vote, it would give 58% , if voted all Ukrainans than it make 83% but i doubt that 100% Ukrainians want to be in Russia and not Ukraine

Russians there are 58%, it is impossible to have 96% of support in 83% referendum when Ukrainians want their country (and language) and Tatar/Muslims do not want to be in Russia (in case of Muslims also Chechen case)

Ah I see. So it's just your doubts. Thanks God, I was not sure for a second -)

[vilas 473]

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/over-123-of-sevastopol-residents-vote-to-join-russia/

123% registered voted

in Sevastopol on 385 000 registered people - voted 474 000 people, nice,

do you believe that in region where Russians are 58% they have 80% support to join Russia and 96% support in poll (they are 58% not 98%)

it is data from one region, would be good to get data from other regions ,

p.s.

Katherine Serhatskova - journalist claims that she get voting paper although she was not inhabitanta of Crimea but she said to comission she is Russian and she get voting card , noone asked and checked where she lives

Edited March 24, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine orders Crimea withdrawal

On the subject of the votes; even if the vote was not rigged, which there are enough proof to think it was, it didn't meet any basic democratic requirement ( it was conducted under Russian Army occupation ), ergo IMO no much point to discuss; besides most of the world have not recognized it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[Tonci87 163]

Dispatch eighteen

[arttem 1]

Like it was with EU officials. Some time ago. Let's wait for any response from Timoshenko and Shufrich. Or EU reaction.

Translation:
Shufrych. Indistinctly... Concerning Crimea, I tell you, I'm shocked! I'm shocked! Just today I've had a talk with our common friend, he almost weeps... And I asked him, how we were going to...
Tymoshenko. You see, I myself am ready to take the machine gun now and shoot that scumbag in the head.
Shufrych. I said yesterday that should, God forbid it, there be a military conflict... indistinctly... should, God forbid it, there be a military conflict, I'm a reserved officer and my elder son is a reserved officer, both of us would take up arms and defend our country.
Tymoshenko. Indistinctly... Look, it goes beyond all boundaries. F*ck it... we should take up arms and kill the f*cking katsaps (Russians) along with their leader.
Shufrych. I tell you...
Tymoshenko. I wish I had been there and leaded all the actions, they would have eaten sh*t instead of getting Crimea.
Shufrych. By the way, you know I thought about it too. If you had been here at your place, it might have been...indistinctly...though we had no force capacity...indistinctly and you know what is most hurtful...
Tymoshenko. I would have found a way to kill the morons.
Shufrych. And you know...
Tymoshenko. And I hope that as soon as I can do it I will raise all my connections and alert the whole world so as to turn Russia into a burned field.
Shufrych. I tell you that I'm your ally here, and even more than that. I want to tell you... well we've had a talk today, this morning there's been a conference of party leaders and then I talked to Viktor. Vitya asked what we should do to the rest 8 million Russians still living in Ukraine? They are the outlaws!
Tymoshenko. Damn, we should fire nukes at them!
Shufrych. I wouldn't argue with you here, because what's happened is a dreadful thing. But there's a following alternative showing up, because today there are actions which are undoubtedly illegal. These illegal actions should be considered in some international court...
Tymoshenko. Well we are going to the Hague to the International Court of Justice...
Shufrych. And... Edited March 24, 2014 by ArtTem

[Amra 10]

Lol, Artem, you were first.

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/441241/Ukraina-oficjalnie-wycofuje-sie-z-Krymu/

Acting President Oleksandr Turczynow declared that the Ukrainian authorities had decided to withdraw its armed forces from the Crimea - gives BBC News.

[arttem 1]

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/441241/Ukraina-oficjalnie-wycofuje-sie-z-Krymu/

In my humble opinion.

It will be more safe for them and at first for theirs familys, to stay in Crimea.

But let's look what will be.

[spooky lynx 73]

For those from South-East and Crimea - yes. For those from Western region - no.

[Dwarden 1124]

>Tymoshenko. Damn, we should fire nukes at them!

ironically this proves the whole chat is just fake, cause she is educated enough to know Ukraine has zero nukes ...

[mistyronin 1181]

>

ironically this proves the whole chat is just fake, cause she is educated enough to know Ukraine has zero nukes ...

"You know nothing John Dwarden, Tymoshenko is a nazi-superspy trained by the West, that has a huge amount of nukes under her skirt... It is known! It is known!

Thank God Super-Putin, the care-taker, is here to save the day and expel such nazi evil from Europe. It's just his first step to clean the continent from that zionist scum."

These my last lines would make an awesome Putin's PR plot, it may be even be shown as a classic in Russian Today!

[arttem 1]

Wow. Calm down guys. I've said let's wait some response. There is no any reaction from Kremlin. And nobody panic in Russia. Lol. Everybody know that Ukraine don't have nuke weapons. Thanks to US for that.

As for me, it's just expression of intention in a figurative look from her. And i can say more, i'm sure that they threw out this record by her request, I think Yulya will go on elections.

[Tonci87 163]

I honestly doubt that this phone call is authentic.

As somebody already mentioned they are well aware that the Ukraine has no nukes.

This isn´t the kind of conversation they would have via phone.

It´s dead easy to fake this.