Ukraine General

[papanowel 120]

Why do I have a feeling these guys don't belong there?

http://i.imgur.com/rER7u3M.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/r5OcfJh.jpg (102 kB)

Those are soldiers from the new Russian SSO (Russian SOCOM) I guess (if someone can correct me).

[kireta21 13]

Meanwhile: ( Yle ) Poll shows support for military union with Sweden

Poll shows support for military union with Sweden

Not suprising. It's pretty normal to look for allies, under current circumstances. Let's not forget not so long ago Russia exercised bombing campaign aganist Sweden.

@Smurf

It's already established, that claims about Russia not using army in Crimea was just ballant lie

That occurred in the Crimea is connected not with our any evil intentions, and with need to protect Russians who there live, and lived there throughout centuries."

Protect from what? Living in different state? We live in era of citizen states, where borders don't have to reflect population placement.

And how this "protecting" required attacking Ukrainian bases, and trapping and capturing Ukrainian fleet based there?

When argument of "joining nation with motherland" is brought up, it's usually just excuse to wage war of agression.

Edited March 25, 2014 by boota

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine far-right leader Muzychko dies 'in police raid'

He was a leader of Right Sector, a far-right group which was prominent in the recent anti-government protests.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's parliament has voted to accept the resignation of Defence Minister Ihor Tenyukh.

Mr Tenyukh had been accused of indecision in the face of Russia's military takeover of Crimea.

But why the Ukrainian gov is prosecuting far right extremist if Putin says that they are all far right extremists?

Edited March 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

( BBC ) Ukraine far-right leader Muzychko dies 'in police raid'

But why the Ukrainian gov is prosecuting far right extremist if Putin says that they are all far right extremists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Röhm

--------------------------------------------------------

http://vesti.ua/kiev/42691-jarema-anonsiroval-aresty-bojcov-samooborony-majdana-so-sledujuwej-nedeli

"People who gave us the new power/authorities and put it in such beautiful offices, they don't demand change of persons, they need change of a situation in Ukraine. They can be understood. But it develops into real threat to a public order. Someone who is included into these groups, has no relation to the Maidan and didn't participate in events on February 20"

"And then there will come "time of X" when from the Maidan and on television it will be declared that since such moment these formations are illegal, and their participants will be detained and made responsible. For this purpose people should be warned and have a chance to put down weapon that they have. They need to understand that from now on will be made responsible".

Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema

Edited March 25, 2014 by ArtTem

[Beagle 684]

( BBC ) Ukraine far-right leader Muzychko dies 'in police raid'

But why the Ukrainian gov is prosecuting far right extremist if Putin says that they are all far right extremists?

Like Röhm was prosecuted by Hitler after he was of no more use for him.

[mistyronin 1181]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Röhm

Funny point ( don't ask me why, but when I was writing my last message I had the feeling that someone would talk about the Night of the Long Knives ).

But as far as we know, this has been an isolated incident not a big organized operation; and among other things Ukraine's government hasn't tried to annex other territories nor copy any other of Hitler's policies ( unlike let's say... the Russian Federation ).

In fact they are quite powerless, and have enough problems just keeping the country under control until the next elections.

Like Röhm was prosecuted by Hitler after he was of no more use for him.

Well in fact the historians are quite agree that the Night of the Long Knives event was originated because of the fight of power/influence among the NSDAP families, in this case SA vs SS.

So mainly was a purge organized by Heydrich and Himmler to eliminate the opposition inside the NSDAP.

But again, at this moment there is no point that connects the events inside Ukraine with the events in the Third Reich. Meanwhile it's quite extended among the analysts the fact that Putin seems to be coping Hitler's playbook ( just browsing "Hitler Putin" in the Google, and you'll find dozens of articles; for example: Washington Post's Is Vladimir Putin truly a modern-day Hitler? )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

( The Moscow Times ) The Kremlin's War Propaganda by Vladimir Ryzhkov

Information warfare is well known throughout the world and is used by all leading countries. The U.S. government successfully used the same principles when it bombed Yugoslavia and invaded Grenada, Panama and Iraq. The difference, of course, is that the U.S. government does not own mainstream media outlets, so their ability to manipulate the truth is less effective.

Take, for example, the Iraqi invasion in 2003. Within a relatively short time period after the invasion was initiated, leading Western media went the complete other direction by criticizing the U.S. government for misleading the public on the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction that were never found. This self-correction process does not occur in Russia, where the main media outlets are state-controlled.

In authoritarian countries like Russia, independent information is losing out to mass propaganda, and whole populations have become victims of brainwashing. Politicians speak about the need for peace even while stirring up war hysteria. And that means the likelihood of war is far closer and more real than many might imagine.

Edited March 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

A li'l bit offtopic: the whole "independent information" term is rather diffused. Independent from what or from who? If the meaning is "independent from officials" - why does it automatically mean such information has more truth in it? Every more or less large media outlet has its own owners. These owners belong to large business groups and often have their own views in politics and other fields. So shouldn't we say "officials' information" and "business groups information" instead?

Meanwhile Ukrainian court ordered to quit broadcasting of four Russian TV channels.

[kireta21 13]

A li'l bit offtopic: the whole "independent information" term is rather diffused. Independent from what or from who? If the meaning is "independent from officials" - why does it automatically mean such information has more truth in it? Every more or less large media outlet has its own owners. These owners belong to large business groups and often have their own views in politics and other fields. So shouldn't we say "officials' information" and "business groups information" instead?

So that's how Russians reason goverment control over media, huh? "There's no guarrancy free media aren't biased, so why need for free media anyway?". Makes sense.

Meanwhile Ukrainian court ordered to quit broadcasting of four Russian TV channels.

I'm guessing payback for doing same with Ukrainian media in Crimea even before official annexation of region. Did they stop all TV channels, or just some? My Russian isn't what it used to be, sadly.

Edited March 25, 2014 by boota

[ProfTournesol 956]

Everybody with a brain is able to see what press is trying to keep an objective point of view over events and what press isn't. That's not rocket science.

Saying "everybody is under influence so no press should be believed anyway" or "every science is questionable so why not creating a belief that there's a superior/inferior race" or "the USA invaded Irak so why Putin shouldn't invade Ukraine" or "there are radical islamists in Syrian opposition so let Assad slaughter all opponents" are extremely dangerous and shortsighted shortcuts.

[arttem 1]

Everybody with a brain is able to see what press is trying to keep an objective point of view over events and what press isn't. That's not rocket science.

Yes. Absolutly right.

[mistyronin 1181]

Interesting set of words that the POTUS used in his last speech. I have quoted a few parts that I think are the most important ( doesn't mean that I agree nor disagree )

( The Guardian ) Barack Obama: Russia is a regional power showing weakness over Ukraine

"Russia is a regional power that is threatening some of its immediate neighbours, not out of strength but out of weakness," the president said. The US also has influence over its neighbours, he added, but: "We generally don't need to invade them in order to have a strong cooperative relationship with them.

"The fact that Russia felt it had to go in militarily and lay bare these violations of international law indicates less influence, not more," Obama said.

He said that the US was committed to the defence of its Nato allies but that for non-member states along Russia's borders, Washington and the rest of the international community would use non-military pressure to counter Russian encroachment.

"There has been no evidence that Russian speakers have been in any way threatened," Obama said. "When I hear analogies to Kosovo, where you had thousands of people who were being slaughtered by their government, it's a comparison that makes absolutely no sense."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

( The Moscow Times ) Kosovo? Hong Kong? Abkhazia? Few Precedents for Russia's Crimea Takeover

Another argument frequently used by Russia in justifying its seizing of Crimea is that the region had been part of Russia before 1954, and that its transfer to Ukraine was a pure formality since both Russia and Ukraine were parts of the Soviet Union at the time.

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein used a similar justification when he invaded Kuwait in 1990, saying it had been part of Iraq during the Ottoman period. After the invasion, a formally independent republic was established in Kuwait and subsequently it was joined to Iraq. The annexation was never recognized by the international community.

Israel has appealed to history in its territorial occupations, saying that Palestine and parts of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan were parts of the Jewish lands described in the Bible. Though most of the territories occupied by Israel have not been formally integrated into the Jewish state, the country brought some of them under its jurisdiction, including Palestine's East Jerusalem in 1967 and Syria's Golan Heights in 1981.

Edited March 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

But again, at this moment there is no point that connects the events inside Ukraine with the events in the Third Reich.

--------------------------------------------------

The crowd chants - Heroes never die! Heroes never die!

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Reminder.

Edited March 26, 2014 by ArtTem

[ProfTournesol 956]

Those neo nazis are objective Putin's allies.

[arttem 1]

Those neo nazis are objective Putin's allies.

Wow! New trend?

[vilas 477]

they have few percent according to late stats, unlike Zhyrinovsky or commies who praise criminal Stalin,

according to one article from today, on Ukraine there was pre-voting poll made (they plan elections on 25th May) and ultra-right wing has only few percent , so those photos are like Putin propaganda, showing "if Crimea will not be Russian there will be swastikas and genocide" bla bla bla

geting few hundreds people on funeral of politician is not hard in nearly 50 milion people country rotten with corruption , poverty and attacked by other country (which brings tensions)

what about 123% of Sevastopol people voting ? on 380 000 people registered, 474 000 votes, this is scary, when 123% votes

[Amra 10]

The problem of Ukraine is Yushenko rule. It was his regime, which made these bandera-lovers an legitimate political movement. It was he who distributed medals to those of them who managed to run away or hide in 1940-x and 50-x. It was his regime who was renaming streets to "honor" bandera, shuhevitch, and even johar dudaev. Using worst kind of antirussian rhetoric and raising zoological russophobia. Now these nazis are legitimate force, armed among other weapons even with AA-launchers. With warm and kindly support of our Western friends (we saw this kind support even in this thread). At least Crimea's people are safe now.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Wow! New trend?

Nope. How could he justify his intervention in Crimea (and maybe in Eastern Ukraine) if he couldn't get on his white horse and go on his "anti fascist" crusade ?

Edited March 26, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[vilas 477]

real nationalists are those who support such things:

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/over-123-of-sevastopol-residents-vote-to-join-russia/

and according to stats 80% Russians support Putin politics,

and they dare to say about few percent nazis in Ukraine, while 11-12% votes on Zhyrinovsky, 20% votes on Commies who praise Stalin, and others support guy, for whom 123% votes is nothing strange while west-democratic style party Yabloko has in Russia 1%,

Russians start to remind North Koreans (those think their leader is god-like, born on magic mountain and brought by angel-birds) i wonder how they can not react on fact that 123% voted

[Amra 10]

real nationalists are those who support such things:

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/over-123-of-sevastopol-residents-vote-to-join-russia/

and according to stats 80% Russians support Putin politics,

and they dare to say about few percent nazis in Ukraine, while 11-12% votes on Zhyrinovsky, 20% votes on Commies who praise Stalin, and others support guy, for whom 123% votes is nothing strange while west-democratic style party Yabloko has in Russia 1%,

Vilas, numbers you shake in every post you make mean absolutely nothing. And of course they won't stop us from speaking about nazis of Ukraine, which are (I'll remind you) are now legitimate and supported by West political power of modern Ukraine.

[arttem 1]

and maybe in Eastern Ukraine

Russia now will stand apart and look on that show. Now it's a problem of US and EU, they maded a new "friend", so deal with the problem. :)

Crimea now in safe.

US started to help, they give 1 billion dollars and 150 million now as a fast help. And thats all. Wow. But Ukraine have a 33 billions of debt. And they need 64 billions minimum per year for state expenses. And theirs treasury absolutly empty. Everybody knows it. Just raw facts. And your politics/officials knows that it's not a country, it's a dead body of country, the phantom, but they do everything to get em in EU. Why you don't wanna to help for example Zimbabve? Or Mogadishu? I think they wanna go to EU.

How much can give a France? For guys who was jumping on Maydan for 20 years and doing nothing, sells all weapons that USSR give em, shooting down Russian civil airplanes with passengers, destructing their own Army. And don't forget, they are waiting when you open a borders. It's your new brothers. :) And i can say more, if EU give em much money you will pay for that by your taxes. EU can't make moneys from air and give em to smbd. So they take your money, nice. And it's not an evil EU. You need to say thank you for all that show to US.

P.S. Self defence forces returning home. Crimea under protection of theirs police, like it was always before.

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

real nationalists are those who support such things:

that 123% voted

:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014

Edited March 26, 2014 by ArtTem

[vilas 477]

so Euromaidan website is lie ?

[arttem 1]

so Euromaidan website is lie ?

Vilas. I can say only one thing - let's wait. We have a saying: "It will be visible at spring who and where crapped".

[mistyronin 1181]

(photos)

The crowd chants - Heroes never die! Heroes never die!

I'm gonna repeat again, still I see not connection with this images with the Third Reich; BTW you should check the funeral of the Cossack that died the other day...

Meanwhile, Putin's playbook in Crimea has been a copycat of Hitler's Anschluss.

[Dwarden 1125]

the question is who made the Ukraine reserves empty, as far i know the last gov before Maidan events were just Russia's puppets

... and they were able ruin Ukraine faster than 3 previous governments together ...

so IMHO it seems like well orchestrated state mess allowing any actions from outside power

[vilas 477]

the question is who made the Ukraine reserves empty

imo so called "oligarchs" + Yanuk + Timoshenko (like Russia in 90s in Yeltsin era had serious financial problems while small groups had been swiming in gold and jewelery or similar to Poland where also small group is very rich (not like oligars in Ukr or Russia but they can afford Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley) while industry was sold for "few dollars")

the main root of all evil in those post soviet countries is corruption that is not stopped by mainstream politicians (cause all mainstream politicians are corrupted and they suck profits from current situation)

reminds me yesterday VICE that i watched on Youtube about favellas in Rio De Janeiro:

- drug trafickers produce tonnes heroine and sell it like it was bread on street, but all policeman around are corrupted and take bribes, those who not take bribes were/would be killed, so you have either corrupted policeman or drug dealer, and people prefere drug dealers cause they keep order and kill any thief or robber or rapist, so people live in "peace" thanx to mafia, which murders any "bandit" that would try to rob someone,

and mafia is there police, but heroine goes to poison people in other parts of the world (the same works with Shiria law or nazis, when nazis rule, you have no robberies on street or burlgary to home) so people are in one crap or other crap, they can choose crap or crap,

Ukrainian money were stolen by those who is called "elite" (their rich businesmen, their polical mainstream from both left and right wing) and everything is kept under controll of "justice" system which in fact do nothing except keeping security "elite", similar to Favelas in Rio, police care if rich guy are not robbed by poor people, but when drug dealer shoot 50 men in favela where you have 50 000 murders every year (Brasil), noone care, but if poor man would hit rich man than whole SWAT would react in 1 second, if sons of drug-lords will ever legalize money, you would hear about "young succesfull man from Brasil who bought famous mark/company for 200 000 000 dollars year ago and lead this company... bla bla bla"

in Russia and Ukraine oligarch are even using blue police strobe lights on their cars, so they do not have to keep trafic law, so they can go in opposite trafic direction, they can cross red light, they can go 200 km/h in urban area and noone care cause they are rich, where from is their money ? they are for example sons of retired intel officers of commie services who had US dollars in 1980s while rest was forbidden to keep US dollars under communism and they set business before anyone could set and they get first contracts when all was in state hands, in 1-2 years they became more rich than people in West who worked for generations building their companies from scratch and build their company since year 1920, 1880, 1910, ...etc. plus their competition was either imprisoned by corrupted "daddy friends" or "died in accidents"

in Poland one famous politician said in early 1989 "first milion you have to steal" (i do not say his name to not bring him shame cause "whole world respect him";) )

in case of my country such people who stolen first milion, later had many milions and now their children live abroad and in 2 decades noone will say they are from Poland cause they will be "succesfull Swiss businesman, succesfull British businesman, succesfull Cyprus businesman"

those people have money cause they stolen all under intel/police/secret police/courts (corrupted) support and their business is build from citizens' taxes

it works the same in Russia, Ukraine and on much smaller scale in Poland or maybe more post-soviet states, if you would do investigation you would find that all those rich guys daddies were not civilian before 1989 (and daddies of those daddies also were not and they came from NKVD for example) but mostly intel officers

in the west rich people build companies mostly in few generations and as whole hard working family since 100 years

in our countries rich people became rich suddenly in 1990 when their daddy intel officer gave them 100 000 dollars (while rest of people were earning 20 dollars) and any competitor had problems like for example "tax police inspection visit every week and accounts frozen by tax police", some competitiors were attacked by bandits and "police couldnt find them" (thats why in our countries we do not respect rich people cause our rich in 90% are plain ex mafia)

those people made Ukraine empty , those people can afford to buy helicopter every month to their kid or they have 100 000 000 dollars on every account in 20 banks abroad

sorry to use non Ukrainian example but my country

before 1989 all was state, right? so banks too and you had money saving in banks on state account,

suddenly in 1988-1991 there was huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge inflation after fall of communism , people lost their life savings (my mother get after 20 years of saving money for which she could buy... half pizza)

but the same time suddenly appeared guys who had money to start their busines such as TV station, football stadion, suddenly just like that guy "from nowhere" has TV station and 20 year later non-mainstream press writes "he was intel agent before 1989" i know guy who was mayor in army, this guy in 90s retired from army and was put as director in one state-owned company in 90s (before it gone private later), this guy one day lost wallet on street, he said "aa nevermind, there was only 4000 dollars, no problem, let someone buy himself good car", his official salary on this state position was much lower than those money that for him meant nothing,

he was commie party memeber, officer in army, his daughter today is left wing party politician and is someone important,

in early1990s some honest idealistic politicians or policeman wanted to investigate dirty business of most rich people , all died in "accidents",

r.i.p. guy from NIK "najwyzsa izba kontroli" , chief of state control office died in car accident which noone believed, trafic policemen who were first on crime scene also soon had fatal accidents themselves, over 20 people died in accidents like journalists, policemen, clerks in early 90s around those cases of ex commie intel money etc.

later noone was investigating cause who would be standing against top rich businesmen from list of top rich guys in country ? in 10 years those guys will die as old and their sons will be "businesman" leading company after father

Edited March 26, 2014 by vilas