Ukraine General

[arttem 1]

Catherine Ashton condemns Right Sector’s actions next to Verkhovna Rada

“I strongly condemn the pressure by the Right Sector activists who have surrounded the Ukrainian Parliament. The intimidation of the Parliament contradicts democratic principles and rule of law,†Catherine Ashton claims in her statement announced on March 28.

(Ukraine source) http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?catherine_ashton_condemns_right_sectors_actions_next_to_verkhovna_rada&objectId=426816〈=en

Seems they worry that "Gin from a bottle" becomes not controllable. And i can't understand Baroness Ashton, she was distributed cookies to fighters on maidan. Now she changed her point of view? Niiiiiice.

Edited March 29, 2014 by ArtTem

[vilas 477]

And i can't understand Baroness Ashton

people on Maydan fought against corruption, they fought for more European-standards Ukraine (transparency of gov. and etc.), Maydan was not ONE party front, it was different organizations against corruption,

in many such situations in world of history every political powers were united against one enemy (in WW2 USA had aliance with Stalin, not enough example ?)

everyone hate corruption: liberals, nazis, patriots, socialists, euroenthusiasts and usual people who are fed up - so they they fighted together against Yanuk corrupted rule (and oligarchs system which now rules in Russia, Ukraine)

when in Poland we had anti-ACTA protests than all youth people were together no matter of music/orientation/economical points of view, priest together with atheists, metalheads together with disco listeners, socialists together with nationalists - all were for freedom and against ACTA (and big corporations)

Edited March 29, 2014 by vilas

[arttem 1]

people on Maydan fought against corruption, they fought for more European-standards Ukraine (transparency of gov. and etc.), Maydan was not ONE party front, it was different organizations against corruption,

in many such situations in world of history every political powers were united against one enemy (in WW2 USA had aliance with Stalin, not enough example ?)

everyone hate corruption: liberals, nazis, patriots, socialists, euroenthusiasts and usual people who are fed up - so they they fighted together against Yanuk corrupted rule (and oligarchs system which now rules in Russia, Ukraine)

when in Poland we had anti-ACTA protests than all youth people were together no matter of music/orientation/economical points of view, priest together with atheists, metalheads together with disco listeners, socialists together with nationalists - all were for freedom and against ACTA (and big corporations)

Vilas, i understand you. And i agree with you here. I understand people of Ukraine who was on maidan. I don't understand Baroness Ashton. ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

Catherine Ashton condemns Right Sector’s actions next to Verkhovna Rada.

Seems they worry that "Gin from a bottle" becomes not controllable. And i can't understand Baroness Ashton, she was distributed cookies to fighters on maidan. Now she changed her point of view? Niiiiiice.

As Vilas already said, in Maidan there were numerous people from different precedence, there were even Russians prodemocracy ( you just have to check the videos ). People wanted a change of government, because Yanukovich didn't respect his electoral program ( for what he was vote ). One of my favorite covers of that protest are the photos by Yuri Kozyrev ( who is my fav. photographer, which happens to be Russian ).

That's why even his own party mates vote against Yanukovich in the parliament.

Right Sector was part of the uprising, it's true, but only a minor one. It was a rise of the population against corruption.

And call the actual gov. fascist because Right Sector is a minority in it, doesn't make much sense. Unless you are a Russian high politician who wants a populist excuse to take strong actions.

Edited March 29, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Amra 10]

I suggest you get off your moral high horse, since your information about Ukraine obviously comes from the First channel. Sarcasm is good when it doesn't come from propaganda victim with double standards.

Name me one Ukranian "nazi" currently representing Ukraine in UN.

Besides, we have Milonov in Duma, who is also in fact a nationalist. Good casus belli, huh?

P.S.And for "forbidding parties" - you made me laugh... Russia is a totally democratic state, all right. No political repressions at all.

Actually there is one question worth answering in a pile of nonsense you wrote.

Yuri Sergeev here justifies Bandera and OUN UPA.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yuri Sergeev here justifies Bandera and OUN UPA.

Would you be kind to point in what min. does he justify the Bandera group?

In fact he says that they are a minority, and also comments precisely in Ukraine there are laws against pronazi / fascist acts. He even said that he is against that ideology and that he works against racism ( watch from 14:25 ).

Edited March 29, 2014 by MistyRonin

[comm_yuri 10]

The list who supported the referendum, updated.

- The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

- Kazakhstan;

- Venezuela;

- Armenia;

- The Korean People's Democratic Republic;

- Syria;

- Kyrgyzstan;

- Belarus;

- African Union;

- Abkhazia;

- South Ossetia;

- The Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic;

- Mongolia;

- Vietnam;

- Republic Of Nagorno Karabakh;

- Afghanistan;

- Nicaragua;

+ Cuba;

+ Bolivia.

Referendum turned out to be about "remaining autonomous republic of Ukraine" or "seperate and become part of Russia" only.

NO seperate and become independent. That's what listed countries ACTUALY supported with the referendum. Independence of Crimea. But as it turned out, it was about "re"-incorporating souvereign territory of one nation into another nation without any democratic instance.

So that list is total farce and can't be realy considered as anything meaningful .... also a number of listed are seperate/contested regions themselves ( Nagorno Karabakh, "South-Ossetia", Abkhazia ). In fact, focusing on those, it becomes clear what they rather support. Independence and not annexion.

Actually there is one question worth answering in a pile of nonsense you wrote.

Yuri Sergeev here justifies Bandera and OUN UPA.

..... No he does not. He clearly does not. I mean, you show a video in which said man says the absolute opposite of what you just wrote. .... I don't understand you people. How can you write something like that and put corresponding video that says something absolutly different. You hope noone will watch it .... ? seriously, I don't understand. Explain me what you are thinking when doing something like this.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[scrim 1]

Can any of the local Russians shed some light on exactly why this Bandera character is so incredibly bad? I mean, he cooperated with the Nazis and was a very despicable man, sure. But he did so less, and never came even close to doing as much as Russia did prior to the war, and during it, and I have this weird feeling that the people who so persistently say that everyone who doesn't want Ukraine to become a Russian province is a "Bandera lover", don't themselves see many faults in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, any other part of the extremely extensive Nazi-Russian collaboration, or the crimes committed by Russia during the war.

[Amra 10]

Wow!

"Look at the Nurenberg process documents. Soviet side at that time tried to press western allies to recognize what you're calling bandera's and others that they were killers. Why Nurenberg process didn't recognize that. Why? Because it was falsified. Because ...aaa...bee... the position of that time was not fair"

Now read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army and this http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BC_%D0%9E%D0%A3%D0%9D-%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%90.

Btw, western allies didn't recognize this guys as killers too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731. Most of them continued to live and work in USA for example.

[arttem 1]

Can any of the local Russians shed some light on exactly why this Bandera character is so incredibly bad? I mean, he cooperated with the Nazis and was a very despicable man, sure. But he did so less, and never came even close to doing as much as Russia did prior to the war, and during it, and I have this weird feeling that the people who so persistently say that everyone who doesn't want Ukraine to become a Russian province is a "Bandera lover", don't themselves see many faults in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, any other part of the extremely extensive Nazi-Russian collaboration, or the crimes committed by Russia during the war.

Look on passengers in buses.

And one historical remark. Bandera is only a symbol. He wasn't fight on the Nazi side. Nazi put him into jail in 1941 because of his "Act of revival of the Ukrainian state". But. His camrades was fighting with Nazis on one side, together. Using his "Act of revival of the Ukrainian state" as a symbol and his family name. There was two legions "Nakhtigal" and "Roland". In Nazi documents they was Banderabewegung. Mmmm. In few words. Nazi wasn't have any plans to give Ukraine to theirs people. So they put leader in to jail. And continue using "banderas" with the words of freedom. But ofcourse they have in plans kill them all later.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 29, 2014. TV Zvezda. Russia, Republic of Crimea. Removal of the Ukrainian military equipment from the Crimea.

http://youtu.be/-ShAMkMeOAo

Around 350 transport and armoured vehicles that belonged to the Ukrainian army are parked in a military base near Bakhchisarai on Friday. Russian President Vladimir Putin announced earlier on Friday that all Ukrainian army vehicles located in Crimea will be relocated to Ukraine. All military equipment, including ships and aircraft will be transferred.

Edited March 29, 2014 by ArtTem

[vilas 477]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/29/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA2S09320140329

[scrim 1]

Wow!

"Look at the Nurenberg process documents. Soviet side at that time tried to press western allies to recognize what you're calling bandera's and others that they were killers. Why Nurenberg process didn't recognize that. Why? Because it was falsified. Because ...aaa...bee... the position of that time was not fair"

Now read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army and this http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BC_%D0%9E%D0%A3%D0%9D-%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%90.

Btw, western allies didn't recognize this guys as killers too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731. Most of them continued to live and work in USA for example.

Okay, now we've got the irrelevant answer. How about you read what I wrote this time, and then you reply based on what I wrote?

Am I justifying what anyone did? No, that I do not. Am I pointing out the hypocrisy of shouting "this guy is bad, and everyone I don't agree with support him" whilst supporting the crimes that caused people like him to act the way they did, and gain supporters? Yes.

Artem: I have heard of many ways of debating, but never have I heard of the "let's reply with some YT films that say absolutely nothing about the topic at hand" method. You could just as well have posted some films of kittens.

[arttem 1]

Artem: I have heard of many ways of debating, but never have I heard of the "let's reply with some YT films that say absolutely nothing about the topic at hand" method. You could just as well have posted some films of kittens.

From the previous post:

And one historical remark. Bandera is only a symbol. He wasn't fight on the Nazi side. Nazi put him into jail in 1941 because of his "Act of revival of the Ukrainian state". But. His camrades was fighting with Nazis on one side, together. Using his "Act of revival of the Ukrainian state" as a symbol and his family name. There was two legions "Nakhtigal" and "Roland". In Nazi documents they was Banderabewegung. Mmmm. In few words. Nazi wasn't have any plans to give Ukraine to theirs people. So they put leader in to jail. And continue using "banderas" with the words of freedom. But ofcourse they have in plans kill them all later.

P.S. On the video veterans of WW2 and from other side banderas. It's not so hard to switch on google translate to see a description.

It's very important to remeber that "Right Sector" is not the only one power. Power wich was making a maidan. Power wich have weapons.

The Tyagnybok, Parubiy and Avakov still there. And Avakov now is the Minister of internal affairs.

Edited March 29, 2014 by ArtTem

[Amra 10]

Okay, now we've got the irrelevant answer. How about you read what I wrote this time, and then you reply based on what I wrote?

Am I justifying what anyone did? No, that I do not. Am I pointing out the hypocrisy of shouting "this guy is bad, and everyone I don't agree with support him" whilst supporting the crimes that caused people like him to act the way they did, and gain supporters? Yes.

Artem: I have heard of many ways of debating, but never have I heard of the "let's reply with some YT films that say absolutely nothing about the topic at hand" method. You could just as well have posted some films of kittens.

I was not answering to you. It was a reply to those who began to shout "he didn't justify bandera's". Actually he did. And I quoted his words.

[mistyronin 1181]

"Look at the Nurenberg process documents. Soviet side at that time tried to press western allies to recognize what you're calling bandera's and others that they were killers. Why Nurenberg process didn't recognize that. Why? Because it was falsified. Because ...aaa...bee... the position of that time was not fair"

Again what do you understand by justify?

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought all the invaders of their lands ( Polish, Soviets, Germans-Nazi, etc. ). Does that make them nazis? ( in fact it was an antinazi movement ) Or wanting to invade Russia?

They wanted to be independent ( what Putin says everyone has right to... was the excuse for the invasion of Georgia and Ukraine ).

Read your own link:

Outside of Western Ukraine, support was not significant, and the majority of the Soviet (Eastern) Ukrainian population influenced by Stalinist propaganda considered, and at times still view, the OUN/UPA to have been primarily collaborators with the Germans

[Amra 10]

Again what do you understand by justify?

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought all the invaders of their lands ( Polish, Soviets, Germans-Nazi, etc. ). Does that make them nazis? ( in fact it was an antinazi movement ) Or wanting to invade Russia?

They wanted to be independent ( what Putin says everyone has right to... was the excuse for the invasion of Georgia and Ukraine ).

Read your own link:

I feel that conversation will go far. Here you can read how they fought with polish children and unarmed civilians who invaded their land:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Now what single sentence you would pull out to prove me that OUN/UPA were honest freedom fighters for everything good against everything bad?

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) Kerry to meet Russia's Lavrov for Ukraine talks in Paris on Sunday

On Saturday, Russia said it had "no intention" of invading eastern Ukraine, responding to western warnings over a military buildup on the border following Moscow's annexation of the Crimean peninsula. Lavrov, speaking on Russian television, reinforced a message from Putin that Russia would settle – at least for now – for control over Crimea despite massing thousands of troops near Ukraine's eastern border. "We have absolutely no intention of – or interest in – crossing Ukraine's borders," Lavrov said.

He added, however, that Russia was ready to protect the rights of Russian speakers, referring to what Moscow sees as threats to the lives of compatriots in eastern Ukraine since Moscow-backed Viktor Yanukovich was deposed as president in February.

Summarizing: "We have absolutely no interest in cross the Ukrainian border unless we estimate opportune..." Same they said about Crimea a month ago.

Now what single sentence you would pull out to prove me that OUN/UPA were honest freedom fighters for everything good against everything bad?

No one has said that they were "honest freedom fighters" but not worst that German, Polish or Russian invaders; with the slightly difference that ones were protecting their lands and families and the others were invading to take advantage of their resources.

Edited March 29, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

"He added, however, that Russia was ready to protect the rights of Russian speakers, referring to what Moscow sees as threats to the lives of compatriots in eastern Ukraine since Moscow-backed Viktor Yanukovich was deposed as president in February."

*remark

Here is full video. He didn't say such words.

He is saying - "Putin was speaking with Ukraine and West heads. And asked to solve the problem with Rus speakers in Ukraine, to prevent any problems to that Rus community. We will be protect the rights of Russian speakers, to solve the situation by diplomatic, politic and international law dialog."

[mistyronin 1181]

*remark

Here is full video. He didn't say such words.

The quote was from the The Guardian article I linked. Which said that was said by Lavrov but does not specify where ( maybe it was not from the video but another press conference or was maked up , don't know ).

I'll try to look for it in other media.

[arttem 1]

The quote was from the The Guardian article I linked. Which said that was said by Lavrov but does not specify where ( maybe it was not from the video but another press conference or was maked up , don't know ).

I'll try to look for it in other media.

It was just a remark. I'm not a truth fighter or MFA worker. :) It's not so important for me what another countries think about us. :)

[mistyronin 1181]

It was just a remark. I'm not a truth fighter or MFA worker. :) It's not so important for me what another countries think about us. :)

I have the mania to always check the press information from different sources, even sometimes I've been and checked the main source or place myself ( that has took me to some interesting situations hahaha ). I guess it comes from the times that I worked as photojournalist :)

[Tonci87 163]

New dispatch from Kiew

It seems as if the right extremist sector is gaining more influence by the day wich was to be expected after they lost a part of their country.

[arttem 1]

New dispatch from Kiew

It seems as if the right extremist sector is gaining more influence by the day wich was to be expected after they lost a part of their country.

And here comes the main trick. Tyagnybok, Parubiy, Klitschko,Turchynov, Sashko Beliy (Alexandr Muzichko), not sure about Yarosh, have an illegal business in Crimea. :) It was a feeding trough for radikal power. 5 billions from US was given to Yatsenyuk, not for them. Yes at the begining Yatsenyuk was very kind and give them moneys to make a revolution. Now Yatsenyuk with Timoshenko play the game, with the name - we don't know who they are. Radikals very angy and need moneys. But can't do anything, they are cut off from Crimea. :) They can dance on maidan as long as they want. But without moneys.... :)

No moneys - no revolution. The checkmate.

Do not exclude, that salvation from economic and, consequently coming after him humanitarian chaos, Tymoshenko will search help from Putin. What are the Western «partners» in terms of assistance, she does not harbor illusions, unlike the idiots who believe that their will be called in the EU to live in Provence, where Black Jack and whores is enabled by default.

Here is oficial from United States Department of State Victoria Nuland. Words that we need comes from 7:26.

And another nice words from her. We was help Ukraine to build democracy from 1991. OMG! Now we see a result of that help. No guys, you know, we don't need your help. We see how it looks on final.

That leaflets was given to people in Ukraine.

http://i.imgur.com/7ZpZ2zi.png (499 kB)

Ofcourse when you see such leaflet, you wanna to EU. But hey! Dear Ukrainian friends! You must be a full .... to believe, that you can go to EU through the revolution.

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 ----------

And now about epic forces from evil empire near the border of Ukraine. It seems that people from every side (Russia too), never been in army, never read official documents. And never check info.

Okay.

One of the popular shots.

Where US intelligence saw assault helicopter here i don't know. 25 transport Mi-8 to invade another country???? Lol. For such tasks we have now 70 Mi-28N and 63 Ka-52. I'm not talking about 197 Mi-24 and 23 Mi-35M. And they are all on bases (expect few Mi35 in Crimea). It's planned tactical exercises for VDV and others. By theirs study plan they making it each year in Belgorod.

In 2012 they was making the same training in Belgorod region and nobody give a care about that.

http://okp.mil.ru/separated_commandant_regiment/news/more.htm?id=11003829@egNews

In 2013 they was making the same training in Belgorod region and nobody give a care about that.

And here is the info about that year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/russia/2014/03/140313_russia_military_exercise.shtml

Three of the four areas where exercises are carried out - Rostov, Belgorod and Kursk - border Ukraine.

"We are in parallel conducted in the Arctic exercises - nobody says that we are preparing to take over the Norwegian shelf," added Korotchenko.

Edited March 30, 2014 by ArtTem

[scrim 1]

Yeah, because Mi28s and KA-52s are totally troop carriers, just like the Mi-8/Mi-17...

[arttem 1]

Yeah, because Mi28s and KA-52s are totally troop carriers, just like the Mi-8/Mi-17...

I can't understand what you mean. If the existing air defence is working (and it's working), Mi-8/Mi-17/Mi-26 never go in the first attack echelon. And 25 Mi-8 is not enough to invade Ukraine or one of the province. 25 Mi-8 can carry 350 soldiers. It's not enough. We are speaking about Ukraine, not Mogadishu or Afghanistan. Where you can do anything you like on BlackHawk.

Edited March 30, 2014 by ArtTem