Beagle 684 Posted March 17, 2014 Actually it might return to bite Russia in the ass.Putin wet dream of a new URSS and his crimean adventures might get them in trouble already.http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-russia-economy-crisis-idUSBREA2G0RF20140317 Remember these aren't even the full sanctions that EU and US are preparing.If US will approve the natural gas exports for Europe a bit faster then Gazprom(basically Russia is Gazprom) will have it's economy in shambles.The superpower dream is all nice and fuzzy but not with an empty stomach. We're not really interested in US gas simplly because we have a all new direct line gas pipeline to Russia. Russian gas is so cheap the US would have to give us 30% discount including transport. TRhe EU is one speaking in one voice anmd no other EU counrty is so deeply involved with Russia like Germany is...and I guess we are simply not interested in a conflict with Russia...and wee have a Ex-Chancelor and government party member on the gazprom payroll...do not underestimate the power of the lobby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1302 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) How it can be? O_o They are from EU. Do not know, how about the rest, these two from Poland are criticized even by own party now. People are wondering, are they simply that stupid (nothing weird amongst Polish politicians), or really on Russia's payroll of some kind (and this also will make surprised only some), where both options fits well one to another. I thoght that people in EU is incorruptible Some, if naive enough, think that way. Others do not expect from Brussels much better, than from Moscow. If something is trustworthy in all this mess, it would be rather simple calculation. As said, Europe rather will not do much because of energy (oil/gas) provided by Russia, unless Putin will be crazy enough to screw calculations or do another and "go west", which may force EU to actually do something, while Russia, unless Putin will be crazy enough, will not push west, because some of their pipes extend through Ukraine. As we can see, main question is, is Putin crazy enough, or rather not more, than he showed already. Another - should we (Europe) parhaps seek for energy from another source? Curious, what reasons besides old habits, Putin may have to see threatening opposition in NATO. Threatening to what exactly? Edited March 17, 2014 by Rydygier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 17, 2014 is't up to eastern/south Ukraine to decide ? same as majorities did in Cremia ? Maybe they want to separate from west and join EU instead ? Who knows... The Sudeten Germans wanted to join Nazi Germany. The Gdansk Germans wanted to join Nazi Germany. Nice to see you using exactly the same arguments, in 2014. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted March 17, 2014 If it ask. Its population have to decide what does it want. Let's be honest. If they want what Russia wants it will be granted. If they don't, it will be forced. This is how things work when strong is asking weak for opinion. there's no straight opinion among population unlike in Crimea. Well, Crimean Russian had better reason to join Russia than just nationalist sentiment. As you probably know, natives of Crimea, Crimean Tatars were forcefully removed from Crimea, deep into Russia in late 40s. All their property was left there and either confiscated or given to Russian settlers. As result of glasnost descentants of those who survived started to return to "land of fathers". Their legas status wasn't regulated, under Soviet Union they weren't allowed to return, but there's no Union anymore. Should their status be straighten up by Ukraine, it could lead to them having legal claims to property left there (similary to Jews after WW2), and no one really knows, how many Russians it could affect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) So ok. Obama Announces New Sanctions Against Russia. Yeah. Long ago it was time to make it. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/17/fact-sheet-ukraine-related-sanctions http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/mogherini-eu-sanctions-against-russians-to-last-6-months/ The official list - here it: Entry into the USA will be forbidden persons involved in the list, their assets and property will be blocked. Assistant to the President of the Russian Federation Vladislav Surkov Chairman of the Federation Council Valentina Matviyenko Adviser to the President of the Russian Federation Sergey Glazyev Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin Head of the State Duma Committee on Family, Women and Children Affairs Elena Mizulina Head of the Russian State Duma Committee of affairs of the CIS Leonid Slutsky Head of the constitutional committee of the Federation Council Andrey Klishas Leader of social movement "The Ukrainian choice" Victor Medvedchuk Speaker of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Crimea Vladimir Konstantinov Prime minister of the Crimea Sergey Aksenov Declared earlier legitimate president of Ukraine Victor Yanukovych Sanctions from EU The names of politicians included in the sanctions list from the European Union, aren't called. The Foreign Minister of Germany Frank-Walter Steinmeier reported only that it is a question of eight Crimean politicians, 10 parliamentarians, and also about three high-ranking Russian soldiers, one of which — the commander of the Black Sea fleet of the Russian Federation Alexander Vitko. In total in the list 21 persons. Sanctions will work within six months. Assistant to the President of the Russian Federation Vladislav Surkov twitter: Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin twitter: Prime minister of the Crimea Sergey Aksenov twitter: http://i.imgur.com/e7YUCwX.png (259 kB) Edited March 17, 2014 by ArtTem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 17, 2014 is't up to eastern/south Ukraine to decide ? same as majorities did in Cremia ? Maybe they want to separate from west and join EU instead ? Who knows... You mean after they have been manipulated by stupid Russian propaganda and "political tourists" from russia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted March 17, 2014 Let's be honest. If they want what Russia wants it will be granted. If they don't, it will be forced.This is how things work when strong is asking weak for opinion. Transnistrians already voted for joining Russia. The same was in Abhasia after the war. That's Russia wanted. But still nothing happens. Russia didn't want anybody to recognize Kosovo. Had much of countries cared? Nope. Well, Crimean Russian had better reason to join Russia than just nationalist sentiment. As you probably know, natives of Crimea, Crimean Tatars were forcefully removed from Crimea, deep into Russia in late 40s. All their property was left there and either confiscated or given to Russian settlers. As result of glasnost descentants of those who survived started to return to "land of fathers". Their legas status wasn't regulated, under Soviet Union they weren't allowed to return, but there's no Union anymore. Should their status be straighten up by Ukraine, it could lead to them having legal claims to property left there (similary to Jews after WW2), and no one really knows, how many Russians it could affect. I highly regret about that deportation, much better option would be simple prosecution of all the defection and collaboration cases according to martial law. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 17, 2014 And on exactly what moral grounds could the USSR, that had collaborated more with Nazi Germany than any other country on Earth, prosecute any of its citizens for collaborating with the Nazis? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted March 17, 2014 Too fat trolling, pan Scrim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) So ok. Obama Announces New Sanctions Against Russia. Yeah. Long ago it was time to make it.Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin twitter: http://i.imgur.com/EsAeQ7J.png Yeah, and what about if that people have secret accounts in fiscal paradises. To me that sanctions are only a show, so the US and the EU can say that have done something. Same thing when Hitler annexed Sudetenland or Austria. This was the voting ballot so Hitler could annex Austria: Edited March 17, 2014 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 17, 2014 Too fat trolling, pan Scrim. Oh please, explain to me exactly what is incorrect about what I wrote. That the USSR collaborated extensively with the Third Reich up until the very start of operation Barbarossa? Or the obvious hypocrisy of a state prosecuting its citizens for doing something that the very same state had done less than half a decade earlier on a hundred thousandfold larger extent? Ronin: You know, the funny thing is that that ballot actually allows the voter to vote for a status quo, something that the Crimean poll did not. That really says something about just how far Putin has gone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akm74 1 Posted March 17, 2014 You mean after they have been manipulated by stupid Russian propaganda and "political tourists" from russia How "political tourists" from Russia different from ""political tourists/snipers" from maidan ??? Don't even try "two wrongs don't make a right"... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 17, 2014 Oh please, explain to me exactly what is incorrect about what I wrote. That the USSR collaborated extensively with the Third Reich up until the very start of operation Barbarossa? Or the obvious hypocrisy of a state prosecuting its citizens for doing something that the very same state had done less than half a decade earlier on a hundred thousandfold larger extent? Also the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, where both countries decided the fate of different countries ( Poland, Baltics and Finland ), besides no aggression, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 17, 2014 Yes, not to mention this gem. And standby for "the usual suspects" to jump in and deny it ever being even slightly true in 3, 2, 1... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 17, 2014 How "political tourists" from Russia different from ""political tourists/snipers" from maidan ??? Don't even try "two wrongs don't make a right"... Dude I still didn´t see any evidence suggesting that there were maidan protester snipers. Only when the police started to use firearms people appeared with BB guns and small caliber hunting rifles. On top of that I have no evidence suggesting that foreigners played any significant role on the maidan. Please stop repeating everything what you hear on RT and similiar news. They are all full of BS. (Western media is too, but we have more media with different opinions) On the Krim it was very evident that the problems started when russian soldiers moved out of their bases and Russian media started to throw around "the fashists in Kiew will kill you all" BS. After that there were suddenly many "political tourists". Bikers from russia, cossaks from russia, hell even those god damn tshetniks from serbia. I agree that the sanctions are just for show. Nothing that harms Russia in any way. I just hope that Putin doesn´t turn out to be the new Hitler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrim 1 Posted March 17, 2014 Shall I relink the picture of "disarmed" Berkut police with shotguns throwing Molotov cocktails (yes, police throwing Molotov cocktails. "Berkut, putting the "riot" in "riot police") at demonstrators as early as January-early February, just to make the point more clear about the deadly force employed by police from very early on? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kireta21 13 Posted March 17, 2014 Transnistrians already voted for joining Russia. The same was in Abhasia after the war. That's Russia wanted. But still nothing happens. "Want" as "Has buisness with, worth trouble". Politics is buisness, and if anyone thinks it has anything to do with justice or what people wants, is dead wrong. Ukraine is easy target, since it has no allies. Question is, if gains would be worth going to war with it. Russia didn't want anybody to recognize Kosovo. Had much of countries cared? Nope. Kosovo is screwup in its own leage. KFOR presence was more than enough to prevent violence, but no. EU had to show how incompetent and short-sighted socialist democracies can be, and it seem like they'll make same stunt with Palestinians in future. Because who cares about consequences, when you can be re-elected by acting holier than thou. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akm74 1 Posted March 17, 2014 Dude I still didn´t see any evidence suggesting that there were maidan protester snipers. BB gun realy ? Dude :) just watch this video. You can jump right to 0.18.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NSIpEluqvI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 17, 2014 BB gun realy ? Dude :) just watch this video. You can jump right to 0.18.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NSIpEluqvI To me it looks like a M4, but... there are also BB guns that are M4 replicas ( for instance ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) BB gun realy ? Dude :) just watch this video. You can jump right to 0.18.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NSIpEluqvI No, no, no. It's a Russian propaganda (Tonci87 - "Please stop repeating everything what you hear on RT and similiar news. They are all full of BS."). Can you give the same video on CNN or BBC channel? Please. Edited March 17, 2014 by ArtTem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted March 17, 2014 To me it looks like a M4, but... there are also BB guns that are M4 replicas ( for instance ). That somehow doesn´t look like a M4. You can bet your ass that if there really was a dude using an M4 every journalist in range would have been on his ass 24/7. So nope, still didn´t see any evidence of protesters using firearms except for small caliber and BB guns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akm74 1 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) That somehow doesn´t look like a M4. You can bet your ass that if there really was a dude using an M4 every journalist in range would have been on his ass 24/7. So nope, still didn´t see any evidence of protesters using firearms except for small caliber and BB guns. LOL man. Is't the very idea to NOT be caught on camera when you shooting your own peoples in the back ? And he is not "same dude..." he is head of presidential administration in current government. Pushinski. Edited March 17, 2014 by AKM74 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_centipede 31 Posted March 17, 2014 I remembered japan was pushed against the wall with oil embargo and got so desperate that they invaded oil rich south east asia. Just saying sanctions and embargoes are nice and all, but better be prepared for war. Putin doesn't seems really afraid to use its military. Sorry for my pessismistic view Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beagle 684 Posted March 17, 2014 And here is an excelent example how well the so called "sanctions" work. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303287804579443362727354326?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303287804579443362727354326.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arttem 1 Posted March 18, 2014 Russia recognized the resolution of the Crimean parliament adopted today "About independence of the Crimea" in which the peninsula is proclaimed the sovereign state. http://www.interfax.ru/365307 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
