Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

A video of more russian stuff:

Sure, Russian tankers are so dumb that they paint the same white stripes as on UA vehicles;)

Oh yeah and this thing:

Ukraine doesn't have these.

Are you sure there had been no weapon that was used by KGB troops and produced since late 80's? Especially if one of USSR Alfa detachment was left to Ukraine with the whole equipment.

Tonci, check previous page, i found VDV variants of MTLB

VDV does not use MTLB. At all. Naval and regular infantry does.

@All: Guys, I beg you to post at least high quality propaganda, please don't drag every stupid UA-made fake here. I'm already sick of that tons of dumbest UA BS spread across the whole Ru-net, please be so kind to provide me with good anti-Russian material.

[mistyronin 1181]

Sure, Russian tankers are so dumb that they paint the same white stripes as on UA vehicles;)

According to UK yes. Check the last UN SC meeting.

False flag operations are called, for example like in Crimea, when the Russian Army was supposed to be Crimean self-defense. And later Putin recognized that it was another of his lies.

[JdB 151]

@ Vilas: Katipo66 meant global protests, not in Russia. There were protests against the US invasion of Iraq all over the world. Now we know that all the US needed to do to prevent all of those protests was to send in their troops but tell them to remove the US flags from their uniforms first.

I wonder if the deaths of Russian conscripts are being felt by the Russian population at all. With the way the seperatists have been losing ground in the last few months the casualty lists must be horrific. People must be wondering why they've never heard from their son, husband etc since. You can hide thousands of deaths from everyone except the people that know them best. Do they know what's going on? Do they support the use of witless conscripts in a situation where their sacrifices are being denied and the Geneva Convention is void (fighting for a non-state actor operating without distinquishable national markings). Are they really that gullible?

It never ceases to amaze me how easily fooled Russians seem to be. Like Girkin saying that the passengers on MH-17 had been dead for a long time already and were strapped into their seats to serve as a false flag when loads of relatives and friends had waved at them when they left not 5 hours earlier. The whole world laughed at the statement, to Russians it made perfect sense. They're trapped in their own paranoia. And before Russians accuse the West of paranoia: Before Crimea we didn't even look East, never mind care about whatever happened in that backwater. That's how serious people here rate the threat (or in Russians' mind: prestige) of Russia. I'd much rather see us focus on Islamic terrorism as that posses a real threat to us rather than Russia that huffs, puffs and postures in order to draw some attention to itself.

Another funny thing is that I often notice that the strongest online advocates of Russia are Russians living in any place other than Russia enjoying better education, employment and living standards than back home but hating on everything. Nationalism must be that deeply instilled in the average Russian.

Edited August 28, 2014 by JdB

[oxmox 73]

Could you guys please post a detailed comparison of the camouflage for tanks and infantry used by the Ukrainian military and by the Russian. Maybe someone knows a good link or page where you can compare it, I have honestly sometimes difficulities since the gear looks so similar.

[spooky lynx 73]

According to UK yes. Check the last UN SC meeting.

False flag operations are called, for example like in Crimea, when the Russian Army was supposed to be Crimean self-defense. And later Putin recognized that it was another of his lies.

In Crimea our troops used the same gear as friendly side (or friendly side used the same camo as our troops:)). But what's the point of using the signs of enemy, especially in the area full of friendly but independent troops that are very potent in the terms of anti-armor warfare? The chance of being burned by separatists is very high, so why possible Russian tankers should use enemy camo in this case? That's too risky, I think. Especially when separatists have their own command and communications independent from Russian army.

---------- Post added at 02:25 ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 ----------

Could you guys please post a detailed comparison of the camouflage for tanks and infantry used by the Ukrainian military and by the Russian. Maybe someone knows a good link or page where you can compare it, I have honestly sometimes difficulities since the gear looks so similar.

There's no only standard paint scheme of the vehicles across all post-Soviet armies, but several standard and non-standard (some are even of USSR origin). Also they differ because of the various paints available in workshops (their colors may differ from each other much). So yes, Russian and Ukrainian vehicles look the same in many times. And you can not say that some paint scheme is Russian-only/Ukrainian-only.

[oxmox 73]

Europe's approach to Russia's gas power (Deutsche Welle)

The Ukraine crisis has led to a rift between the West and Russia, with both sides imposing sanctions against each other. However, Russia's gas exports have so far remained untouched - for a number of reasons

Unlike the US, which is not reliant on gas imports, Europe is heavily dependent on Russian gas. A quarter of the gas consumed in Europe comes from Russia. While Russian gas accounts for 38 percent of the total gas consumption in Germany, that figure in some southern and eastern European countries rises to as high as 100 percent.

The concerns over gas supplies were aired once again by Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk on Wednesday. He claimed that he had knowledge of Russian plans to turn off gas supplies to the EU in winter. Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak immediately denied the claims.

Oswald said, it would not be possible to replace all Russian gas imports as prices are too high and there is not enough LNG on the world market: "In the next three to five years, therefore, Europe will remain relatively heavily dependent on Russia."

A far greater likelihood is the danger Russia will cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, Oswald said. Kyiv would then be forced to tap the gas destined for Europe, he said, adding that this would be similar to a gas stop for Europe as the amount of fuel flowing to other countries would then be significantly reduced.

"We need Ukraine as a transit country for gas deliveries to Western Europe - and Ukraine needs gas in winter," Oettinger said in an interview on Thursday.

http://www.dw.de/europes-approach-to-russias-gas-power/a-17887505

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------

There's no only standard paint scheme of the vehicles across all post-Soviet armies, but several standard and non-standard (some are even of USSR origin). Also they differ because of the various paints available in workshops (their colors may differ from each other much). So yes, Russian and Ukrainian vehicles look the same in many times. And you can not say that some paint scheme is Russian-only/Ukrainian-only.

Well, take for example the current fights in the eastern ukrainian. Are there any image comparisons how to identify the different types of "factions". I tried using google images search, but there is everything mixed together also normal military with special units and so on..quiete confusing.

By the way, since you are form russia. How are the opinions from people on the street, aquaintances and so on about the current situation in the Ukraine ? Do you feel anything about the sanctions ?

Edited August 28, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The chance of being burned by separatists is very high, so why possible Russian tankers should use enemy camo in this case? That's too risky, I think. Especially when separatists have their own command and communications independent from Russian army.

Unless you warn the Pro-Russians. It's the safest way to cross the Ukrainian side, and also to create chaos there. One of the most known the Operation Greif.

That would make sense in the Russian case, knowing that the Ukrainians almost finished the pro-Russians, it's a way to give them a window of time.

In the same way as the troops movements in the border, making part of the Ukrainian Army on stand by on a possible Russian invasion.

[oxmox 73]

In addition to the article about the current situation about european gas dependancy on russia, there is another very interesting article..little bit older but of course still relevant.

Ukraine crisis is about Great Power oil, gas pipeline rivalry (The Guardian)

Resource scarcity, competition to dominate Eurasian energy corridors, are behind Russian militarism and US interference

Less attention has been paid to the role of the United States in interfering in Ukrainian politics and civil society. Both powers are motivated by the desire to ensure that a geostrategically pivotal country with respect to control of critical energy pipeline routes remains in their own sphere of influence.

A more recent US State Department-sponsored report notes that "Ukraine's strategic location between the main energy producers (Russia and the Caspian Sea area) and consumers in the Eurasian region, its large transit network, and its available underground gas storage capacities", make the country "a potentially crucial player in European energy transit" - a position that will "grow as Western European demands for Russian and Caspian gas and oil continue to increase."

Ukraine's overwhelming dependence on Russian energy imports, however, has had "negative implications for US strategy in the region," in particular the strategy of:

"... supporting multiple pipeline routes on the East–West axis as a way of helping promote a more pluralistic system in the region as an alternative to continued Russian hegemony."

Just one month before Nuland's speech at the National Press Club, Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas deal with US energy giant Chevron "that the ex-Soviet nation hopes could end its energy dependence on Russia by 2020." The agreement would allow "Chevron to explore the Olesky deposit in western Ukraine that Kiev estimates can hold 2.98 trillion cubic meters of gas." Similar deals had been struck already with Shell and ExxonMobil.

The move coincided with Ukraine's efforts to "cement closer relations with the European Union at Russia's expense", through a prospective trade deal that would be a step closer to Ukraine's ambitions to achieve EU integration. But Yanukovych's decision to abandon the EU agreement in favour of Putin's sudden offer of a 30% cheaper gas bill and a $15 billion aid package provoked the protests.

But while Russia's imperial aggression is clearly a central factor, the US effort to rollback Russia's sphere of influence in Ukraine by other means in pursuit of its own geopolitical and strategic interests raises awkward questions.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

Edited August 28, 2014 by oxmox

[Dwarden 1125]

Europe shall regret to getting rid of Kaddafi and not building South pipelines (especially those to Libya, Turkey, Georgia)

[mistyronin 1181]

( Al Jazeera ) Russia accused of lies over troops in Ukraine

---------- Post added at 04:59 ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 ----------

( BBC ) T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

[beastcat 14]

Sure, Russian tankers are so dumb that they paint the same white stripes as on UA vehicles;)

If you reply to an ancient post at least link the video. But if its the video that I think it is, than those are not white stripes like the russians try to say, but simple light. If light gets onto a surface it appears brighter, ever heard of that concept?

Are you sure there had been no weapon that was used by KGB troops and produced since late 80's? Especially if one of USSR Alfa detachment was left to Ukraine with the whole equipment.

Yeah, sure. They teleported into the SBU headquarters in Kiev, got into the high security weapons arsenal without anyone noticing, took the weapons without anyone noticing, teleported back to the border, came back into the border and got shelled by artillery. Sounds very plausible, considering its a russian FSB/Airborne Forces weapon, that was made in small numbers and Ukraine most likely doesn't even have a single one of. Also if they are so good at teleporting, why didn't they just teleport away when they started getting shelled?

[astral4eg 10]

Well, i guess i'll stay away from medias whose name begins by a country name and ends by "today".

Sometimes it is useful to know the opposite point of view, at least for common mental development

[ProfTournesol 956]

Sometimes it is useful to know the opposite point of view, at least for common mental development

Nope. That's not an "opposite point of view" (Spooky here has an opposite point of view, for example), but RT is pure and exagerated propaganda. Such as Fox News. So i don't need it for my "mental developpement", as i have an IQ above the one of an Oyster.

Edited August 29, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[vilas 477]

@ Vilas:

I wonder if the deaths of Russian conscripts are being felt by the Russian population at all. With the way the seperatists have been losing ground in the last few months the casualty lists must be horrific. People must be wondering why they've never heard from their son, husband etc since. "(...) Are they really that gullible?

you do not know eastern type of mentality enough good, i live in this eastern mentality and i understand it :

- in western mentality interest of individual is put over interest of group, in eastern opposite, we see that sacrifise someone for higher good is just, in case of nationalistic people like Russian nowadays, they do not feel lost of son/husband, they keep mouth shout thinking about them like heroes, not like guys who make imperialistic interest of corrupted leaders,

thats why communism in our countries could last so long, while west defended against it,

in your mentality , you would not sacrifise others for "idea", in our yes, we would, (the same you are against death penalty, we are for), Slavic nations are closer to East mentality than to West, Russians are far more east than Poles/Czech,

it is one case

another case is probably those families get big compensations , in USSR era those families were disappearing too (in Siberian soil) and there was no compensation but people were disappearing also from documents so "such person was never born, there is no proof he was ever born, no papers in hospital, no papers in school", they were told your son is hero, there is big compensation, and family is treated by neighbors as heroic and everyone say "good moring madame" and knees down kissing hand, you may not understand it as you were born and have in DNA other mentality, but i understand, it is like explaining to someone what is taste or smell, hard

It never ceases to amaze me how easily fooled Russians seem to be. Like Girkin saying that the passengers on MH-17 had been dead for a long time already and were strapped into their seats to serve as a false flag when loads of relatives and friends had waved at them when they left not 5 hours earlier. The whole world laughed at the statement, to Russians it made perfect sense. They're trapped in their own paranoia. And before Russians accuse the West of paranoia:

decades of propaganda change people ,

paranoia, yes, like paranoia with Poland, they were all paranoic about small country having anti-balitistic missile system, saying that country smaller 54 times with 20 times lower army is dangerous when it has protection system is showing that paranoia very good, i do not care what Slovakia or Lithuania have as Lithuania is 1/10 of Poland , Russians go mad from paranoia when Slovakia or Lithuania would buy new helmets "it's agression" ;)

Another funny thing is that I often notice that the strongest online advocates of Russia are Russians living in any place other than Russia enjoying better education, employment and living standards than back home but hating on everything. Nationalism must be that deeply instilled in the average Russian.

i can only use non politically correct comparision to Islamists

people escape from Middle East (from Sharia countries with terror breaking human rights) to countries which have no Sharia and which have human rights and ... protest there demanding Sharia and want to break our human rights and start violence over Sharia-issues, than why they escape if they not feel comfortable in new place and they demand turning new place into old place (which from they escaped),

do you see any sense in such behavior ? guy escape from Syria or Libiya and protest on Brussels, London, Paris street "behead those who insult Allah" "sharia yes, democracy no" , why the f* he came here ?

i have Russian person in family who watch all the time Russian tv in cable, you know what... this person goes mad with paranoia , conspiracy against Russia and such stuff, she lives in Poland for decades, she watches only Russian tv and claim that everyone around lies, she doesn't see facts, she almost pray to Putin saying all the time how good is he and how stupid are Poles (than why the f** she not return to Minsk but live here for decades), she acts like hypnotized like there was subliminal stuff in television , i do not know, i do not have TV in my flat, but she watches TV all day long, since she has cable tv, i can not recognize this person,

Edited August 29, 2014 by vilas

[John Kozak 14]

Well if any Russian watched the meeting and believe him, then they must think that all the world hate Russia and there is a world wide conspiracy against Russians.

Sadly, that is indeed a common view here. A century of communist propaganda does not wear off lightly.

Not everyone shares those views, but the majority certainly does. And in a pretty dogmatic manner.

[Rydygier 1309]

in western mentality interest of individual is put over interest of group, in eastern opposite, we see that sacrifise someone for higher good is just

thats why communism in our countries could last so long, while west defended against it,

Questionable theses. Highly. Sadly, discussing/explaining this further here would be completely offtopic, so I forced myself to delete rest of my commentary, still at least my votum separatum need to be stated.

[astral4eg 10]

but RT is pure and exagerated propaganda.

it's bad that the point of view which is different from the blue (West) call "pure and exagerated propaganda"...

Maybe you know another major "red" (East) media which gave their point of view?

Such as Fox News.

CNN-BBC-Al Jazeera and other major media not far away from Fox news, they all present exclusively "Western policy".

Edited August 29, 2014 by astral4eg

[hellfire257 3]

True, but unlike RT, they're not a comedy show.

[vilas 477]

Questionable theses. Highly. Sadly, discussing/explaining this further here would be completely offtopic, so I forced myself to delete rest of my commentary, still at least my votum separatum need to be stated.

compare it with Pavka Morozov ;) comapre it with "de-culak process" compare it with "volunteer work brigades" and etc.

compare eastern thinking about "me, myself and I" with "nation, working class, reconnaissance by battle" , compare conscript philosophy with professional army,

compare compensations with "you get medal" etc.

not even saying about sacrifice-attitude in far east, not saying about job-company attitude in Japan, Korea, China

it is visible even in construction of tank's turret - western turrets have armor compartment for ammo , in case if ammo blows up, crew is protected, tank is 50% heavier than all eastern tanks,

who cares in east if ammo blow ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

it's bad that the point of view which is different from the blue (West) call "pure and exagerated propaganda"...

Maybe you know another major "red" (East) media which gave their point of view?

RT is basically a propaganda channel for foreigners. Ergo trash.

You should check it's mother channel, RIA Novosti, for the proper Russian point of view news ( both channels are owned by the Kremlin ).

Another good Russian source is ITAR-TASS ( also owned by the Kremlin ).

It's funny because the RT trash reach to the point to contradict it's mother serious channel RIA.

Edited August 29, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Dude RT is such an unpopular obvious joke of a propaganda channel that even its own moderators hate it....

That is pretty telling.

[vilas 477]

theres report that : Putin asked separatists to create corridor to allow Ukrainians leave area, some Ukrainians used corridor and ... it was trap, they get under fire from each sides of corridor

[Rydygier 1309]

compare it with Pavka Morozov comapre it with "de-culak process" compare it with "volunteer work brigades" and etc.

compare eastern thinking about "me, myself and I" with "nation, working class, reconnaissance by battle" , compare conscript philosophy with professional army,

compare compensations with "you get medal" etc.

not even saying about sacrifice-attitude in far east, not saying about job-company attitude in Japan, Korea, China

it is visible even in construction of tank's turret - western turrets have armor compartment for ammo , in case if ammo blows up, crew is protected, tank is 50% heavier than all eastern tanks,

who cares in east if ammo blow

I do not dispute that. Only exactly, what I qouted (as for first quote - mostly because you're saying "we", like you're trying to put Poles to the same "Eastern mentality" bag as eg Russians. Here I can't agree totally, judging by history and present state seems quite opposite to me; second quote is yet another matter). Rest, including above is/may be IMO roughly true.

BTW, a propos "Western mentality", it may be not quite, as you present it. Not always and not anywhere. See Hegelian philosophy of the state (relation between individual and the nation) or (post-)Prussian "ordnung" mentality, maybe some German users could say, if there are some influences of such menatlity even today, don't know. We could argue, if such ideas make "Western mentality" not so uniform, or perhaps rather these by their nature aren't "Western", but... But again, it's pure offtopic. If you want go deeper into this - start new topic or let's go PM.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Rydygier

[negah 26]

I do not dispute that. Only exactly, what I qouted (as for first quote - mostly because you're saying "we", like you're trying to put Poles to the same "Eastern mentality" bag as eg Russians. Here I can't agree totally, judging by history and present state seems quite opposite to me; second quote is yet another matter). Rest, including above is/may be IMO roughly true.

BTW, a propos "Western mentality", it may be not quite, as you present it. Not always and not anywhere. See Hegelian philosophy of the state (relation between individual and the nation) or (post-)Prussian "ordnung" mentality, maybe some German users could say, if there are some influences of such menatlity even today, don't know. We could argue, if such ideas make "Western mentality" not so uniform, or perhaps rather these by their nature aren't "Western", but... But again, it's pure offtopic. If you want go deeper into this - start new topic or let's go PM.

There are indeed differences between german and for example french or italian mentality.

For example we cannot understand how Italy may work as a state where the government is one of the less trusted institutions of this state. Where rules and laws are constantly broken and mafia takes over many responsibilities of the government to "protect" people from it.

When the recent economical crisis has broken out, Germany has somewhat taken over the leadership in Europe. For it we were and still are compared with Nazi Germany all over again. Best example would be Greece, which was helped by our government (as well as some other european governments) so that it wont get bankrupt, in return they should tighten their laws and improve its utterly corrupt system. Now we are the most hated nation in Greece and many people are afraid to travel there for vacation.

As one british journalist put it, we germans do not understand that our principles of life cannot be applied to Italy or Greece.

[beastcat 14]

Destroyed Kamaz trucks from Russia.

Citizens of Mariupol helping to build defensive trenches:

Hromadske - Ukraine receives 100$ million from Japan

Ria - Russia ready to send in "peacekeepers"

24TV - 300 russian units of military tech entered Lugansk

Edited August 29, 2014 by beastcat