vilas 473 Posted August 27, 2014 Germany made Russian army equipped in hightech, they should pay cause they made Russian Army strong with all new toys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miketim 20 Posted August 27, 2014 What? How did Germany equip Russia lol, I mean I bet they probably sold them some engines, red dot sights and some chassis for some crap and maybe some machinery, but Germany is not handing out g36 and leapoards to russia, russia is pretty damn militarily self sufficient (production wise, but partly resource as well). Germany IS equipping ukraine tho, particularly helms, vests and Flecktarn uniforms. Tho I don't doubt Germany would sell to both sides, it's not beneath them, they definitely don't totally equip russia, maybe the captured nazis in the 50s but not today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) New study about the Ukraine Crisis, it reminds me a bit on the the short discussion we had only some pages ago.... Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault Published by the Council of Foreign Relations Essay, Sept./Oct. 2014 The title sounds first irretating and someone will probably rub ones eyes, reading this study. The CFR is one of the four most important Think Tank organisations worldwide and connected with the Chatam House (Royal Institute of International Affairs). The CFR is considered to be the nation's "most influential foreign-policy think tank". Its membership has included senior politicians, more than a dozen Secretaries of State, CIA directors, bankers, lawyers, professors, and senior media figures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House How does this study fit into the actually situation of the Ukrainian Crisis ? Some may remember at the beginning of the demonstrations and riots in the Ukraine about reports the US did finance with billions $ in the Ukraine. These financial aids did play a part to drive the the Ukraine political and economical into the arms of the west. In this case the intercepted phone call is unforgotten between Geoffrey Pyatt, the US Embassador in the Ukraine and Victoria Nuland, Assistent Secretary of State - "F*** y** EU" was one famous statement in this conversation. --> The CFR report reads like a long critical debate about the approach of the West how they put the blame on russia in the escalating situation in the Ukraine. Governmental Authorities, the NATO and the media fabricate the impression that Russia would have annexed the Crimea and this would be only the opening of further achieving aims of Russia. And these goals are composed with additionally territorial expansions in the Ukraine and other Eastern European countries, in the interests of a revitalized Sovjetunion. The Council of Foreign Affairs see the things differently (only parts of it since its too long to post it, but read the full article): According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine. But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine -- beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 -- were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. The crisis there shows that realpolitik remains relevant -- and states that ignore it do so at their own peril. U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. As the Cold War came to a close, Soviet leaders preferred that U.S. forces remain in Europe and NATO stay intact, an arrangement they thought would keep a reunified Germany pacified. But they and their Russian successors did not want NATO to grow any larger and assumed that Western diplomats understood their concerns. The EU, too, has been marching eastward. In May 2008, it unveiled its Eastern Partnership initiative, a program to foster prosperity in such countries as Ukraine and integrate them into the EU economy. Not surprisingly, Russian leaders view the plan as hostile to their country’s interests. In the eyes of Russian leaders, EU expansion is a stalking horse for NATO expansion. The West’s final tool for peeling Kiev away from Moscow has been its efforts to spread Western values and promote democracy in Ukraine and other post-Soviet states, a plan that often entails funding pro-Western individuals and organizations. Victoria Nuland, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, estimated in December 2013 that the United States had invested more than $5 billion since 1991 to help Ukraine achieve “the future it deserves.†As part of that effort, the U.S. government has bankrolled the National Endowment for Democracy. The nonprofit foundation has funded more than 60 projects aimed at promoting civil society in Ukraine, and the NED’s president, Carl Gershman, has called that country “the biggest prize.†After Yanukovych won Ukraine’s presidential election in February 2010, the NED decided he was undermining its goals, and so it stepped up its efforts to support the opposition and strengthen the country’s democratic institutions. The West’s triple package of policies -- NATO enlargement, EU expansion, and democracy promotion -- added fuel to a fire waiting to ignite. Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that Washington backed the coup. Nuland and Republican Senator John McCain participated in antigovernment demonstrations, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, proclaimed after Yanukovych’s toppling that it was “a day for the history books.†A WAY OUT The United States and its European allies now face a choice on Ukraine. They can continue their current policy, which will exacerbate hostilities with Russia and devastate Ukraine in the process -- a scenario in which everyone would come out a loser. Or they can switch gears and work to create a prosperous but neutral Ukraine, one that does not threaten Russia and allows the West to repair its relations with Moscow. With that approach, all sides would win. Full Article with the option for mp3 Audio: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault Edited August 27, 2014 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted August 27, 2014 ye, but that study somehow forgot like 1/2 of these countries whose want out of Russia influence were occupied once or multiple times by Soviet Union ... it's just Russia's own fault that as largest, more mineral richest country, which could be leader for mankind in science, life-quality and even space expansion ... is still unable to match smaller, less coherent (politically wise) and resource barren European Union Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted August 28, 2014 ( BBC ) Russia pressed over fresh fighting German Chancellor Angela Merkel has demanded an explanation from Russia's President Vladimir Putin amid reports that Russian troops have launched an incursion into south-east Ukraine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted August 28, 2014 The torture guy made me really uncomfortable... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted August 28, 2014 The torture guy made me really uncomfortable... When you see how some regular soldiers can behave (look how some US troops behaved in Irak), you can imagine what irregulars can do... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) What?How did Germany equip Russia lol, I mean I bet they probably sold them some engines, red dot sights and some chassis for some crap and maybe some machinery, but Germany is not handing out g36 and leapoards to russia, russia is pretty damn militarily self sufficient (production wise, but partly resource as well). Germany IS equipping ukraine tho, particularly helms, vests and Flecktarn uniforms. Tho I don't doubt Germany would sell to both sides, it's not beneath them, they definitely don't totally equip russia, maybe the captured nazis in the 50s but not today. whole positioning and conection devices, not reddots but telecomunication and help in their gps and tank sights , thermovision and etc. look at company Rheinmetal offer , not at tank hull also look at German state in NATO - Germany shouts against Poland/ LIthuania/Latvia to have ABM , like Germany was thinking that all what was occupied by Soviet Union or Tsar - belongs to Putin look at Schroeder and gas pipe stuff etc. look at 2008 , Georgia - small and weak country kicked ass or Russia , why ? they had western electronic after 2008 Germany made Russian Army modern who trained 100 000 Russian soliders in modern simulations centers, who equipped ships in positioning systems, conections system, encode systems, sight systems? who made simulators and simulations centers in Russiia ? Rheinmetal --------------- there are news about more and more Russian troops on Ukraine, also about captured Russian soldiers who testified they had such orders to enter Ukraine and play fool Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted August 28, 2014 Once again... www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) according to press - latest news from NATO - Germany voted AGAINST NATO base in Poland, after all those 2 countries (Germany, Russia) were historically main Polish enemies and main occupant and main agressor (acting together in 1939 and in 1780s-1914 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland ) Ukrainian Prime Minister call for UN meeting and aks for freezing all Russian account in foreign banks Lithuania officially founds this as Russian aggression on Ukraine Germany do all to make Russia pleased and weaken ex-Soviet ex-commie countries Ukraine is helpless (except Poland sending food and sleeping bags and selling as cheap as possible vests & helmets (i do not know who pay for it, maybe oligarchs maybe usual Ukrainian people) to Ukrainian soldiers) sunds like Ukraine, Lithuania can rely only on my country, cause Germany would torepedo all efforts , just to please Putin and bosses of Rheinmetal GmbH right wing press adds that Ukrainians from Crimea report deportations to faaaaaaaaar east near Mongolia/China mainstream journalist who was in group of people checking convoi, reported today that trucks that he seen on his eyes, were almost empty when they entered Ukraine, but trucks LEAVING Ukraine were not checked all, only few of them were checked and majority not (and days after we have reports about secret burials of VDV soldiers that "died during training in accident") Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) (BBC) T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial But now experts at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London have told the BBC that they have identified a Russian tank in a separatist column in eastern Ukraine that they say could only have come from across the border in Russia. (The Washington Post) Russia’s new tactics of war shouldn’t fool anyone Mr. Putin’s blithe denials that Russia is supporting separatists in Ukraine are already stale. When he says “this is not our business,†as he did in Minsk, he is lying. But the bald untruths and military thrusts into eastern Ukraine provide a revealing glimpse of Russia’s new approach to throwing its weight around. (Bellingcat) Russia’s Version of the Navy SEALs May Be Fighting in Ukraine The Instagram account of a Russian special forces operative reveals that members of the elite Alpha Group took part in military operations in Ukraine. Ilya Gorelyh, who has been highly decorated for his service in special operations, has suggested that he and his colleagues took part in the fighting against Ukrainian forces. Edited August 28, 2014 by surpher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted August 28, 2014 Bad relations between Germany and USSR are bad for business, very bad. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/russia-putin-german-right-hand-man-matthias-warnig Read a story on how men like ex-stasi agents cement Russo-German friendship and create billion dollar ties between these two. That is why Germany can't afford more serious steps against Russian aggression in Ukraine and support relocation of Nato troops towards eastern bases in Poland and Baltic countries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
astral4eg 10 Posted August 28, 2014 meanwhile pro-Russian rebels launch offensive in south-eastern Ukraine Over 60 Ukrainian troops cross into Russia seeking refuge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 ex commie agents are also very important in business leaders in our countries, they jeopardize any effort to make our countries be more self-efficient and economically-stronger was not Merkel STASI agent herself ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted August 28, 2014 (BBC Live feed) Oleg Boldyrev, BBC News, Moscow The general attitude towards Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine remains positive, according to many polls. But the same polls suggest that the majority of Russians do not agree with sending Russian soldiers into Ukraine. (BBC Live feed) A member of Russian President Vladimir Putin's advisory council on human rights, Ella Polyakova, says she believes Russia is carrying out an invasion of Ukraine."When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks and troop carriers, and with the use of heavy weapons, [are] on the territory of another country and cross the border, I consider this an invasion," Ms Polyakova told Reuters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) small note - Polish journalist on East Ukraine was told that pro-Russian bandits claim that Polish Airforce bombs along with Ukrainian Airforce, locals who were asked by Polish journalist said that they were told that it is Polish army who fight there, previously they were showing Ukrainian BTR-4 claiming those are Polish howitzers, those guys out there have really big anti-Polish sentiment (probably they are grandsons of those NKVD officers who murdered Poles there) o my god, such bullshits like this are spread on this Eastern Part, by those who call others "fascists" and are fascists themselves http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/wojciech-bojanowski-ten-kto-zaplanowal-bialy-konwoj-przegral/46zn1 and another news: http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/nowoazowsk-pod-kontrola-rosjan-wladze-ukrainy-potwierdzaja/1x7h8 Russian troops in Novoazovsk in Ukraine manwhile: Bulgaria's "scandal" about publishing to public , report that Bulgaria afriads of Russian imperialism and ambitions to rebuild ex-commie empire Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 video doesn't show any tanks , just some burining grass Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted August 28, 2014 video doesn't show any tanks , just some burining grass Unless there are people who are filming the border non stop you won't be seing any tanks. It's basically the same concept as with police. Police can only respond, but they can't be everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted August 28, 2014 The Separatists are now openly admitting that there are Russian Soldiers in the Ukraine, but they are all volunteers who are merely spending their free time there. http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-574.html Wow I didn´t know that as a Russian soldier on leave you can take all your equipment, including live ammo, with you and ride home in a tank. That is pretty bad ass /irony off Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted August 28, 2014 Well, i guess i'll stay away from medias whose name begins by a country name and ends by "today". ---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ---------- The Separatists are now openly admitting that there are Russian Soldiers in the Ukraine, but they are all volunteers who are merely spending their free time there.http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-574.html Wow I didn´t know that as a Russian soldier on leave you can take all your equipment, including live ammo, with you and ride home in a tank. That is pretty bad ass /irony off Yeah, armoured vehicles and tanks can be used as company cars :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted August 28, 2014 Well, i guess i'll stay away from medias whose name begins by a country name and ends by "today". You are free to ignore it then. :) Heres a very low quality video by the way: http://youtu.be/NI2fVnQ-Eks Supposedly taken in Novoazovsk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vilas 473 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) meanwhile humanitarian society: http://www.pah.org.pl/nasze-dzialania/12/5324/pah_apeluje_o_wsparcie_dla_cywilow_na_ukrainie collects money for help to Ukraine, so far they bought and given : - food to city Zolotoye, - child food, pampers for small kids which go next transport, - medical things, bandages etc. for hospital in Debalcevo, so far any other western country supported Ukraine ? cause i know about 3 Polish actions (food, sleeping bags from Ministry of Defence, some helmets and vests from demobil of our Army, this PAH action for hospitals) ? Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Photo from AP of Ukrainian Vehicles moving to Mariupol. And some more photos from Novoazovsk (The town at the border to Russia next to Mariupol): ---------- Post added at 12:23 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ---------- meanwhile humanitarian society:http://www.pah.org.pl/nasze-dzialania/12/5324/pah_apeluje_o_wsparcie_dla_cywilow_na_ukrainie collects money for help to Ukraine, so far they bought and given : - food to city Zolotoye, - child food, pampers for small kids which go next transport, - medical things, bandages etc. for hospital in Debalcevo, so far any other western country supported Ukraine ? cause i know about 3 Polish actions (food, sleeping bags from Ministry of Defence, some helmets and vests from demobil of our Army, this PAH action for hospitals) ? Canada helped with vests and helmets. And does anyone know what tank it is in my last post? Edited August 28, 2014 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
