Ukraine General

[beastcat 14]

Sometimes you speak as if you don't know nothing about this world. I just posted a whole page on how Serbians don't wan't EU, but they are forcibly being guided towards it. Small countries are not free to do anything on their own.

The EU's mistake is that it thought it can treat Russia as if it was a small country like Serbia.

Then elect a government that doesn't want to join the EU. It's not like the EU went to Serbia and said "Hey, Serbia, join us!". I am sorry, but the EU doesn't give a crap about Serbia joining the EU as it's more trouble than it's worth, just like they don't care about Ukraine.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Then elect a government that doesn't want to join the EU. It's not like the EU went to Serbia and said "Hey, Serbia, join us!". I am sorry, but the EU doesn't give a crap about Serbia joining the EU as it's more trouble than it's worth, just like they don't care about Ukraine.

But Serbian nationalists don't recognize their own governement.

[beastcat 14]

But Serbian nationalists don't recognize their own governement.

If the majority is for the government they will have to learn to live with it and vote against it.

[aleksadragutin 9]

If the majority is for the government they will have to learn to live with it and vote against it.

Here's the deal. The elections were held and people chose the government that was in opposition. The party that was in government till then had started the Euro integration process. The people chose the opposition but the EU journey still continued. In Serbia there is 20+ political partys and every coalition ever formed since 2004 has rushed into EU without officially asking anyone.

About the club part. We are like the uncool kids and the EU (the cool guys) change the rules that apply to us every now and then so it would keep the illusion that we're getting somewhere when in fact they are just messing with us.

If there are rules, fine. But they keep telling us do this and you're in, and when we do it (no matter how embarrassing or away from our interests) they say "ok, that's good, just one more thing", and there will always b just one more thing.

Here are the polls http://www.tvojstav.com/results/0MWm...-o-eu-u-srbiji

Sorry it's in pretty bad Serbian writing.

Do you guys even read?

[beastcat 14]

Do you guys even read?

Serbian government's Office for EU Integration data

January 2012:

Join EU?

Yes - 51% No - 28% Undecided - 21%

Ipsos Strategic Marketing

July 2013

Join EU - 53%

Source - Wikipedia

You were saying?

[vilas 473]

But Serbian nationalists don't recognize their own governement.

i see this problem another way

before election polician say "we shall do A, we cannot do B", after election say "never A, but we start B"

this is the problem , in case of my country, majority of parties do the same,

last month court dismissed case, cause one angry voter , sued politician for not obeying before-voting promisses, court said that polician can lie and all is okay

this is the problem,

they say A, they do B, they are protected by thick walls, police, armored glass,

we do not have guns to shot them

when you will read pre-voting promisses in my country , you will see "lower taxes, harsh punishment for criminals"

after voting "we add new tax, we lower sentences cause human rights say ..."

so you know... majority want A, polician promise A, win election, than he do B - it happens in all mainstream parties,

those who keep promisses are... "fascists"

society can be conservative, but elites lie, they lie to voters, they do opposite to what they promise, some politicans change parties every 4 years, this politician was always changing parties, to be on top,

parties left, ch-d, etc. this is all actor play in tv, they have 1 option - take bribes

Edited August 25, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Democracy has its flaws, for sure. It particularly cannot be built as long as judiciary power isn't able to sue ruling politicians. Sure it needs time and education, it took a century for France to become a modern one (and still far from being perfect).

[vilas 473]

you know, friend of my worked as BOR agent (Bureau of Goverment Security) and friend of my mom worked in Polish Parliament

i know, that some politicians who VERY argue on TV screen , after camera is shot down, they take 1 bottle of vodka and they laugh from voters and taxpayers,

i know about 2 politicians , which very argue in TV, which appear to hate each other, but in real, they are friends and they drink together, friend of my mom seen them dancing together and hugging (woman and man),

when camera is off, leftiest-socialist become capitalist and not leftist, right-church becomes not right-church

thats why they do not want cameras in restaurant of parliament, cause journalists can see what they cannot see, but what can see security agent or person working in parliament, i have decade of experience too in public service

Edited August 25, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

People seem to forget that a democracy has it's own auto-regulation measures.

If people in Serbia don't want their Gov. to join the EU, they can make big demonstrations, collect signatures to change the gov, etc.

But the polls show that the majority favor that Serbia join the EU.

The other thing, is if the EU countries are gonna allow Serbia to join ( as you know, all countries must vote "yes" ), or it's gonna stay in the "EU-limbo" like Turkey.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Serbian government's Office for EU Integration data

January 2012:

Join EU?

Yes - 51% No - 28% Undecided - 21%

Ipsos Strategic Marketing

July 2013

Join EU - 53%

Source - Wikipedia

You were saying?

Khm khm... bullshit khm...

[mistyronin 1181]

Khm khm... bullshit khm...

Would you mind providing us some data that support your words?

[beastcat 14]

Die Welt (DE) - The Kremlin is starting a propaganda offensive in Germany

Note how the pro-russian comments have around 900 upvotes. Usually legitimate comments on non-russia articles have around 80 upvotes with 100+ being a rarity.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Khm khm... bullshit khm...

Hahahahahaha

[vilas 473]

collect signatures to change the gov, etc.

hahahaha , first you must have law that allow such thing and respect such things,

in PL we collected in few cases over 2 milions of signatures to make referendum about something - parliament do not have to take such option according to our law,

even if whole country sign - they do not have to , i like that Switzerland has referendums - this is REAL democracy

[mistyronin 1181]

hahahaha , first you must have law that allow such thing and respect such things,

in PL we collected in few cases over 2 milions of signatures to make referendum about something - parliament do not have to take such option according to our law,

even if whole country sign - they do not have to , i like that Switzerland has referendums - this is REAL democracy

Well, I was talking about a true democracy, not a semi-democracy.

[vilas 473]

Switzerland is true democracy, USA too , they even vote for sherif or judge, we do not vote, they are from gov.

[mistyronin 1181]

Switzerland is true democracy, USA too , they even vote for sherif or judge, we do not vote, they are from gov.

Agreed. There are lot of things that may be wrong about the USA, but their democracy system it's one of the best. People can even throw the president. Also the judicial system is quite fast usually there.

[vilas 473]

fault is also in this what i wrote about restaurant in time you were typing, so you not read this restaurant post , this is also important factor,

[Tonci87 163]

Khm khm... bullshit khm...

Wow, funny how everything that doesn´t fit your view of the world is bullshit...

But you do have a point, kind of.

In Croatia the majority was in favour of joining the EU, but the population was massively influenced. The large TV stations are state owned and so it wasn´t really surprising to see lots and lots and lots of pro EU advertisements and commentarys before the referendum. There was a big focus on all the money Croatia would get from the EU upon joining (of course not mentioning that much of that would be simply loans that have to be repaid etc.) Quite frankly the population was lied to. The positives were repeated again and again while no world was lost on the negatives. I imagine it is the same in Serbia now.

Watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mWX4uAOU24

Farage isn´t a person everyone can easily agree with, but here he just presents facts without ideological BS so it is worth a watch.

The people who really want into the EU are politicians bureucrats and opportunists. The EU is a heaven for them.

[oxmox 73]

There was a 10 years study about democracy in the USA and released in 2014 from one of the most prestigious Universities in the world, Princeton & Northwestern University.

The study confirms what most did already guess: Democracy in the USA is not a realization of the popular opinion but, but the opinon of small elites and influential lobby organizations. The study found that even when 80% of the population favored a particular public policy change, it was only instituted 43% of the time. The study also found: “When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose.â€

The USA is therefore not a democracy but oligarchy.

--> But, if this does look different in other industrial nation is questionable.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

I think this is quiete interesting to read and may contribute to the short discussion here about democracy in general.

Edited August 25, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

There was a study about democracy in the USA in 2014 from one of the most prestigious Universities in the world, Princeton & Northwestern University.

The study confirms what most did already guess: Democracy in the USA is not a realization of the popular opinion but, but the opinon of small elites and influential lobby organizations.

The USA is therefore not a democracy but oligarchy.

--> But, if this does look different in other industrial nation is questionable.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

I think this is quiete interesting to read and may contribute to the short discussion here about democracy in general.

I wouldn´t want the US system in my country. Too much in favour of Lobbyism aka old fashioned bribery. Lobbyism is nothing else but sanctioned corruption. The US and the EU are very fertile breeding grounds for Lobby groups.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) President calls snap vote amid fighting

Petro Poroshenko said many current MPs were backers of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych and that the majority of Ukrainians wanted a new parliament.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Would you mind providing us some data that support your words?

Those are polls that aim a certain group of people. General opinion in Serbia is anti EU. I should know, I live there.

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Wow, funny how everything that doesn´t fit your view of the world is bullshit...

But you do have a point, kind of.

In Croatia the majority was in favour of joining the EU, but the population was massively influenced. The large TV stations are state owned and so it wasn´t really surprising to see lots and lots and lots of pro EU advertisements and commentarys before the referendum. There was a big focus on all the money Croatia would get from the EU upon joining (of course not mentioning that much of that would be simply loans that have to be repaid etc.) Quite frankly the population was lied to. The positives were repeated again and again while no world was lost on the negatives. I imagine it is the same in Serbia now.

Watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mWX4uAOU24

Farage isn´t a person everyone can easily agree with, but here he just presents facts without ideological BS so it is worth a watch.

The people who really want into the EU are politicians bureucrats and opportunists. The EU is a heaven for them.

Those people who voted in favor, are heavily influenced by "milk and honey" promises the government makes. And you also have to have in mind that average people are much more pro Russian and anti EU than I am.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

There was a 10 years study about democracy in the USA and released in 2014 from one of the most prestigious Universities in the world, Princeton & Northwestern University.

The study confirms what most did already guess: Democracy in the USA is not a realization of the popular opinion but, but the opinon of small elites and influential lobby organizations. The study found that even when 80% of the population favored a particular public policy change, it was only instituted 43% of the time. The study also found: “When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose.â€

The USA is therefore not a democracy but oligarchy.

--> But, if this does look different in other industrial nation is questionable.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

I think this is quiete interesting to read and may contribute to the short discussion here about democracy in general.

That is completely true. Why is every president the same? Because the people that call shots are the same and those are the most influential businessmen.

[mistyronin 1181]

Those are polls that aim a certain group of people. General opinion in Serbia is anti EU. I should know, I live there.

That's curious. They are all made by known companies, that have proved faithful and neutral. And all seem to point in a same way.

And with all my respects, even if you live in Serbia, you may know / have relation with 500 people, 2000 at max. But Serbia's population is 7 million. So it's practically impossible that you know everyone's opinion just because you live there.

My home country has a similar population, and I'd never guess what they all though even if I tried to study it.

Anyway if it's as you say, and a majority don't want to join the EU, then don't worry, demonstrations will millions of people can easily throw the Gov ( check Ukraine, or what happened with Milosevic ).

[aleksadragutin 9]

That's curious. They are all made by known companies, that have proved faithful and neutral. And all seem to point in a same way.

And with all my respects, even if you live in Serbia, you may know / have relation with 500 people, 2000 at max. But Serbia's population is 7 million. So it's practically impossible that you know everyone's opinion just because you live there.

My home country has a similar population, and I'd never guess what they all though even if I tried to study it.

Anyway if it's as you say, and a majority don't want to join the EU, then don't worry, demonstrations will millions of people can easily throw the Gov ( check Ukraine, or what happened with Milosevic ).

There is mentality. Don't know how civilized folk do it, but Serbians tend to generally think the same, except if you are a politician, then you just watch your own ass. So ok i know 500-2000 people that think like I'do, but don't you think that concentration like that is a bit strange? I know my people. It's easy for someone to read a wikipedia article and think they know the whole truth, but the thing is that anyone can write what ever they feel like.

Thought people would know by now that there are no neutrals when it comes to politics.

[beastcat 14]

There is mentality. Don't know how civilized folk do it, but Serbians tend to generally think the same, except if you are a politician, then you just watch your own ass. So ok i know 500-2000 people that think like I'do, but don't you think that concentration like that is a bit strange? I know my people. It's easy for someone to read a wikipedia article and think they know the whole truth, but the thing is that anyone can write what ever they feel like.

Thought people would know by now that there are no neutrals when it comes to politics.

Fine, I guess we will have to believe some random guy on the internet, rather than well known organisations which have done serious, well documented studies. After all, everyone can make a study and the opinion of one guy is much more reliable.