Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Nope, diffusing it on videos is a shame. Ukraine shouldn't behave as the so called separatists.

[beastcat 14]

Nope, diffusing it on videos is a shame. Ukraine shouldn't behave as the so called separatists.

If they can't show evidence, how are they supposed to prove something?

Edited August 26, 2014 by beastcat

[vilas 473]

Prisoners speech? This is a simple interrogation.

You can see it as proof, you can not see it as proof, but I don't see whats wrong with interrogations. The police does it, the military does it and these are certainly more humane than the ones from the other side.

]

ProfTournesol meant - that if Ukraine want to be EU-closer, it should behave different than Russia, not the same , European standards very differ from "rest of the world" standards (sometimes EU standards are not effective and rest of the world is right) but in this case i think it is about that "UA should not behave like DNR"

but of course in such situation as war and such wall of lies and propaganda, European standards fail,

example of such fails we have many times, especially when many criminals live very good and have no problems, cause they abuse EU system holes,

i know such example myself, someone is owing me big money, he had debts, this someone changes on and on and on adress and courts cannot reach him, he probably paid bribes too,

if it was non-EU standards, noone would care about his "rights" and case could be leaded even if he avoids picking up court-letters and moves from one city to another, a rich guy escaped now to other European country, he ows to my family 40 000-50 000 USD, we have blank sentence which is not effective due to EU standards, cause other countries legal system do not care about civil cases, only about criminal international wanted letter,

EU has many faults and holes, such hole is effective getting information during investigation,

moreover in our law defendant may lie and all is okay,you can sentence for lie only witness , nice isn't it ?

If they can't show evidence, how are they supposed to proof something?

welcome to EU vicious circle of human rights ;)

my friend had fight on street with robber who wanted to rob him, rober testified on police "i was walking when he suddenly beaten me"

so police had 1 voice against 1 voice and solution was "if you cancel accusation of robbery, he will cancel accusation of assault"

silly isn't it ?

guy who made burglary to my family also testified "i do not remember, i do not know" and all was dismissed, cause in EU such things happen,

yes, you right, but you are against EU standards and if UA want to EU, you must meet and fulfill even our stupid standards, not only good standards, but also bad standards you must fulfill

Edited August 26, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

ProfTournesol meant - that if Ukraine want to be EU-closer, it should behave different than Russia, not the same , European standards very differ from "rest of the world" standards (sometimes EU standards are not effective and rest of the world is right) but in this case i think it is about that "UA should not behave like DNR"

but of course in such situation as war and such wall of lies and propaganda, European standards fail,

example of such fails we have many times, especially when many criminals live very good and have no problems, cause they abuse EU system holes,

i know such example myself, someone is owing me big money, he had debts, this someone changes on and on and on adress and courts cannot reach him, he probably paid bribes too,

if it was non-EU standards, noone would care about his "rights" and case could be leaded even if he avoids picking up court-letters and moves from one city to another,

EU has many faults and holes, such hole is effective getting information during investigation,

moreover in our law defendant may lie and all is okay,you can sentence for lie only witness , nice isn't it ?

welcome to EU vicious circle of human rights ;)

my friend had fight on street with robber who wanted to rob him, rober testified on police "i was walking when he suddenly beaten me"

so police had 1 voice against 1 voice and solution was "if you cancel accusation of robbery, he will cancel accusation of assault"

silly isn't it ?

yes, you right, but you are against EU standards

Well, good thing Ukraine isn't part of the EU (yet), lol.

Someone once told me that if a robber breaks into your house in Germany, you are not allowed to do anything. If you attack the robber without him attacking you, he can sue you for attacking him and he will even be right by law, because he didn't use force against you. What you are supposed to do is call the police and let the robber pack all your belongings and leave, while you wait for the police to arrive.

Almost the same applies to someone attacking you, where you can only punch back when the attacker is already in the act of attacking. For example if a man runs to you with a knife in his hand, he will only have to stand for having a weapon in public and you will have to stand for attacking him.

Of course I don't know how much this really corresponds to reality, but that would also be a great example for that.

[vilas 473]

Well, good thing Ukraine isn't part of the EU (yet), lol.

Someone once told me that if a robber breaks into your house in Germany, you are not allowed to do anything. If you attack the robber without him attacking you, he can sue you for attacking him and he will even be right by law, because he didn't use force against you. What you are supposed to do is call the police and let the robber pack all your belongings and leave, while you wait for the police to arrive.

Almost the same applies to someone attacking you, where you can only punch back when the attacker is already in the act of attacking. For example if a man runs to you with a knife in his hand, he will only have to stand for having a weapon in public and you will have to stand for attacking him.

yes, it is true in many countries in EU,

yes, thats why i am euro-sceptical and all my family voted against EU in 2004

in Poland many people who sit in prison are... victims sitting for crossing self defence, they are sentenced for beating robber, for killing robber or someone who hurted their child,

in USA you are hero, in EU you are sentenced for many years for the same things

i know examples... aa wait, check European topic (not offtop Ukraine) check EU politics topic on this section of forum

i can just say that my family was burgled (burglary in 2005), i was robbed by knife on street in 90s twice , i hunt guy who own me big money after another cheat, my mother also had similar stories

i am against EU standards, i am for US standards much more

EU has some good sides when you are tourist who travel often (but you need to be rich to visit many countries first)

EU has good sides that people can travel for job if they not satisfied with local country etc.

EU is not 100% bad, but in criminal cases it is , for sure bandit has more rights than victim

in PL when you defend someone robbed on the street and beat criminal who attacked - you better run too , cause he can accuse you, so you beat him hard, than you escape with victim before police come, otherwise you will be in prison along with robber , victim who was robbed will say "thank you for your help" but prosecutor will charge you with assault and crossing defense etc.

i was witness of such things few times in my life and i always help victims ;)

i wish we had US rights, if see man robbing someone , i just shot him and all is okay, but unfortunately it is not in EU

EU takes care if bandit has good conditions in hotel called prison, if fitness is okay, if food is okay - all from our high taxes, i would not suggest UA to want to go to EU ;)

i know person who helped beaten woman on the street , he broke arm of robber, he get sentence too

Poland specific is that we are one of most disarmed countries in the world, number of guns per 10000 people in PL is 20-30 times lower than France, Germany, UK

Edited August 26, 2014 by vilas

[aleksadragutin 9]

yes, it is true in many countries in EU,

yes, thats why i am euro-sceptical and all my family voted against EU in 2004

in Poland many people who sit in prison are... victims sitting for crossing self defence, they are sentenced for beating robber, for killing robber or someone who hurted their child,

in USA you are hero, in EU you are sentenced for many years for the same things

i know examples... aa wait, check European topic (not offtop Ukraine) check EU politics topic on this section of forum

i can just say that my family was burgled (burglary in 2005), i was robbed by knife on street in 90s twice , i hunt guy who own me big money after another cheat, my mother also had similar stories

i am against EU standards, i am for US standards much more

EU has some good sides when you are tourist who travel often (but you need to be rich to visit many countries first)

EU has good sides that people can travel for job if they not satisfied with local country etc.

EU is not 100% bad, but in criminal cases it is , for sure bandit has more rights than victim

in PL when you defend someone robbed on the street and beat criminal who attacked - you better run too , cause he can accuse you, so you beat him hard, than you escape with victim before police come, otherwise you will be in prison along with robber , victim who was robbed will say "thank you for your help" but prosecutor will charge you with assault and crossing defense etc.

i was witness of such things few times in my life and i always help victims ;)

i wish we had US rights, if see man robbing someone , i just shot him and all is okay, but unfortunately it is not in EU

EU takes care if bandit has good conditions in hotel called prison, if fitness is okay, if food is okay - all from our high taxes, i would not suggest UA to want to go to EU ;)

You also need solid evidence in US, or the charges get dismissed.

[beastcat 14]

i wish we had US rights, if see man robbing someone , i just shot him and all is okay, but unfortunately it is not in EU

EU takes care if bandit has good conditions in hotel called prison, if fitness is okay, if food is okay - all from our high taxes,

I'm actually a really big supporter of that as well. I'm sure free gun laws would work in the EU, because there are examples that it works. Just look over at Switzerland for example. As for Ukraine I'm afraid it won't work, because the people are just not ready for that yet and we will get a US-situation at best, however I think this whole conflict could have been prevented if the people had the right to bear arms.

(You can carry non-lethal firearms with a license, if I recall correctly. Getting lethal weapons is much more complicated however and you can not use it for defense)

[mistyronin 1181]

Someone once told me that if a robber breaks into your house in Germany, you are not allowed to do anything. If you attack the robber without him attacking you, he can sue you for attacking him and he will even be right by law, because he didn't use force against you. What you are supposed to do is call the police and let the robber pack all your belongings and leave, while you wait for the police to arrive.

Almost the same applies to someone attacking you, where you can only punch back when the attacker is already in the act of attacking. For example if a man runs to you with a knife in his hand, he will only have to stand for having a weapon in public and you will have to stand for attacking him.

Of course I don't know how much this really corresponds to reality, but that would also be a great example for that.

It's correct. It's called proportionality. And is one of the main principles of the law in the West.

Technically the use of violence is restricted to Police only, so by default it's illegal to use any kind of violence.

If someone attacks you, you have the right of self defense. Which means that if some one punches you, you can punch them back, if some one use a knife, you can use a knife but not a gun. Etc. Knowing martial arts or having served in the army it's like using a weapon. So for instance if someone punches me in the street, I can't hit him back ( legally ), as my punches are considered "a weapon".

For example if someone tries to shoot me, I could shoot him back. I'd be charged for manslaughter but I wouldn't have to go to jail as it was self-defense.

If someone tries to steal something from my home or from me, without me noticing or using any force, then I can't hit him or shoot him; what I should do is to call the Police and try to stop the man.

Or something more "funny" that happened to my brother. He was working abroad for a few days, when he went home back someone had changed the lock and settled down at his house, obviously the police can't do anything if there is no immediate danger or without a judge order, that can take weeks ( so he managed to enter climbing the balcony and discovered his house full of drugs, then the Police could intervene ).

As far as I know it works like that in all the Western European countries and Nordics ( France, Spain, Italy, UK, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, etc. ).

[Brisse 78]

Here in Sweden you have the right to use force to remove someone from your property if the person refuse to leave voluntarily. The principle of proportionality gives you the right to use as much violence that you need to get the job done, but not more. Use of excessive force makes it a crime.

You also have the right to defend yourself ofcourse. You also have the right to use force to solve a situation if someone else in in danger. If you see someone commit a crime which carries a penalty of 2 years prison or more, then you have the right to seize the criminal and hand him/her over to the police.

Otherwise the police have a "monopoly on violence" as they say here. The only exceptions are the above situations.

Firearms are very restricted for civillian use. You either need to have a hunters license or being member in a shooting club to be able to own firearms.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Brisse

[mistyronin 1181]

Otherwise the police have a "monopoly on violence" as they say here. The only exceptions are the above situations.

It's called the same in other Western countries ( at least France, Spain and UK ). Also everyone is under the "Empire of the law" ( which means that the law is above everyone, and all must respect them ).

Firearms are very restricted for civillian use. You either need to have a hunters license or being member in a shooting club to be able to own firearms.

Same in Finland, Spain and France.

Usually there are different weapon categories ( guns, rifles, shotguns, big knives and swords, airsoft, war weapons ) and you must apply a different permit for them ( collectionist, hunting, sportive shooting, private security, police, army officers ).

I know that some permits are issued temporarily for self-defense ( I remember a Jewelry shop owner that was attacked a few times, so he was allowed to bear a gun temporarily ).

In Spain even to buy a baseball bat you must be a member of the Baseball Federation.

A curious fact is that in Finland it's completely legal to use sound suppressors! ( which is really crazy )

Obviously if you own a gun, you must leave it in some club or have a safe lock at home ( with certain security requirements ). If you transport it, always dismounted and in a safe place ( locked suitcase or so ).

Edited August 26, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography and grammar

[Brisse 78]

A curious fact is that in Finland it's completely legal to use sound suppressors! ( which is really crazy )

Hey, it's the same here in Sweden. You just need a special permit for it, but it seems to be easy to get. You see supressors on hunting rifles all the time.

Edit: If I recall correctly, it is still possible to own full auto rifles as a civillian too but that also requires a special permit but unlike supressors, it is very hard to get. Actually I have never ever seen a civillian full auto, but technically, it's not banned yet.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Brisse

[surpher 1]

(Reuters) In Ukraine, an armored column appears out of nowhere

"It all started at 8:00 this morning, tanks appeared, no fewer than seven of them," the woman, who gave her name only as Lyudmila, told Reuters by telephone. "Right now I can hear rumbling, explosions ... the residents are hiding."

[vilas 473]

Switzerland is not in retarded EU beastcat, they are closer to normality of which i dream ;) http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?39263-European-Politics-Thread/page210 but it rather belongs to this topic beastcat,

for sure we Slavic people are different than Western Europeans, for me criminals who hurt others are not the same human as honest people , those who hurt children as pedophiles do not even deserve air,

EU is disarming people, because EU goes to kind of feudalism (but corporations play role of kings plus bureaucrats play this role), USA was build by those who do not wanted to live under feudalism, i wish i was born in Switzerland to live like i want,

Hitler said that the best way to conquer others, is first disarm them , helpless people are passive and obey, than you can cut them democracy, they would have nothing in hand to fight for democracy and few policmen will do the job in minutes, EU politicians follow will of Hitler to control societies

Edited August 26, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

Switzerland is not in retarded EU beastcat, they are closer to normality of which i dream ;)

Well, yeah, thats why I took it as an example.

[carlostex 38]

( Yle ) Finland asks Russia to explain air space incursions

They've been doing that since Putin grasped power in Russia. TU-95 provocation is as common as civilian air traffic.

[vilas 473]

Russian right wing wants border from 1900 , when Finland not existedm, imperialism thats why

[cozza 24]

we had lax gun laws route down here.

A few public shootings and a very brutal shooting spree and that was the end of guns in Australia.

Too bad criminals and anyone can still get guns.I got offered to a 9mm pistol once.

My friend has a bloody hand grenade. I don't know how he got it but he brought it to my place one day when we got drunk............................Great combo. Explosives and alcohol. :rolleyes:

[Pyronick 21]

for sure we Slavic people are different than Western Europeans, for me criminals who hurt others are not the same human as honest people , those who hurt children as pedophiles do not even deserve air,

It is the same here in the Netherlands. The population here feels the pain as a community in these cases. But our laws have changed since the end of WW2 because the population started to manhunt everybody they thought could be connected with the Nazi's. Most of those that were slaughtered weren't. So, that is when our legal system was radically changed. Unfortunately that didn't stop the excessive murders of not guilty people, but now it was possible to stop all murderers.

[mistyronin 1181]

Back on topic:

( The Guardian ) Nato plans east European bases to counter Russian threat

Nato is to deploy its forces at new bases in eastern Europe for the first time, in response to the Ukraine crisis and in an attempt to deter Vladimir Putin from causing trouble in the former Soviet Baltic republics, according to its chief.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former prime minister of Denmark, said that next week's Nato summit in Cardiff would overcome divisions within the alliance and agree to new deployments on Russia's borders – a move certain to trigger a strong reaction from Moscow.

[carlostex 38]

Ok so a Russian border patrol got lost into the Ukraine and got themselves captured. Either this is bullshit or GLONASS is.

[mistyronin 1181]

Ok so a Russian border patrol got lost into the Ukraine and got themselves captured. Either this is bullshit or GLONASS is.

Well GLONASS has been proved in a lot of countries by private companies and it works...

So the other option seems more probable.

[Tonci87 163]

Well, does every border guard vehicle have GLONASS? It seems really mandatory for border guards, but hey this is Russia....

[vilas 473]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Media-do-Petersburga-przywieziono-duza-liczbe-rannych-zolnierzy,wid,16839957,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=11355c

according to press : To Petersburg Russian Army brought lot of wounded soldiers but army refuse to inform families when and where they got hurt, wintess say it could be even hundred wounded soldiers,

also there were 3 funerals of spetznaz soldiers but family were not told when and where they died

[spooky lynx 73]

With the fall of the soviet union a new enemy was needed. So terrorists have become the new big threat, but they were kinda not that of a big threat either. Gladly we have the evil russki bears wanting to march across europe and rape our women again. The heavy industry is already counting money it will make on weapons deals with our armies as Rassmussen calls for the increase of military budgets in NATO.

I'd add a little. For many centuries Europe had its nice good scarecrow - the Jews, strange nation (for most of Europeans) with own language and culture. They were always blamed for many things, for example ole good famous 'jewish plot' etc. Since 20th century it had become politically incorrect to do this, Jews became free of blaming. But still Europeans need to have such scarecrow. And now Russians took the place Jews held for many years. It's quite okay to blame Russians for everything, offend us, threat us. And, what is most important, such attitude is widely accepted and welcomed in Europe. So no problems with infamous political correctness. And Putin eats the children and shots planes instead of some random Jew using child blood for making matze. Indeed, very civilized behavior.

[vilas 473]

opposite to Jews in Europe,

Russia:

- has as co-chairman in parliament man , who rather should be in prison for thereatening other countries ,

- has green-man roaming and killing abroad with weapons on other country territory,

- allow cross border with armament,

- sticks to other countries defence politics telling about threat when others want to have protective systems,

- promotes heavy nationalism and imperialism,