Ukraine General

[.kju 3244]

@ beastcat

It is not about the terrorists/separatists. It is about Russia - a cease fire is only a step to get into serious negations to make all sides find an agreement that can live with.

Looking at the bigger picture, we don't have to "respect russian interests", we have to show russia that it can't do whatever it wants.

Unfortunately this will likely not have a good outcome for you, and potentially way worse for everyone involved.

[ProfTournesol 956]

What will be when Russian army really step in? I suppose there will be the same as in Crimea. If you look at the fighting in Donbass, you'll see that UA army is good at shelling lightly armed or even unarmed separatists from long distances or shelling just at cities and villages. When it comes to serious battle with more or less equally equipped enemy - they often lose. Their morale is somewhere near the ground and often those who bravely posed with arms, shouted "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to heroes! Glory to nation! Death to enemies! Let's crush the seps! Kill'em all!" behave like little crying girl after being captured and moan that they are definitely not nazis, they were definitely forced to join military and they didn't know that they fight against the same people as themselves but not some 'Russian mercs' or 'terrorists'.

That's a nice story, but very far from reality. Pro Russian separatists were about to be wiped out (despite being heavily supplied by Moscow) before Russia directly intervened to support them with Russian paratroopers and other troops. You cannot deny the obvious.

Edited August 30, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

Well of course that Americans will think that Russia is the source of all evil (Which they never stopped since WW2), and Russians are going to think that USA is evil.

What's your point?

Well I don't know in Serbia, but after the fall of the USSR, Russia's aperture and development has been seen with really good eyes in Europe. Some even admired some of the Putin's decisions. Russia was considered a brother country, one more of us.

During the Georgia war, everyone just thought that was a little crazy moment, nothing too bad.

But this last year, Putin has destroyed all the good reputation Russia had, and now people look at Russia as a crazy imperialistic warmonger once again, and ask for more NATO protection.

For example here in Finland last year, there were talks about getting closer, even allowing visa-free entry to Russian citizens. But now the Finnish Air Force is in high alert ( specially after the Russian air incursions inside Finland this last week ), the government and the population are willing to change the neutral status to join the NATO. Etc.

Putin has destroyed in one year, most of the links that were made after the fall of the USSR. And making neutral countries to join NATO.

[Rydygier 1309]

You cannot deny the obvious.

Well, Russia quite some time now successfully demonstrate that it's opposite.

to make all sides find an agreement that can live with.

That may be impossible. Not, if at least one side can't live with injustice. Problem is, Putin apparently wants, what hasn't moral right to want. Problem is, he doesn't bother with morality, when he reaches for what he desire. People are dying and suffer because of his decisions and attitude, and despite that he pushes further. Problem is, about 80% of Russians apparently accepts and supports such actions so far. Problem is, West care most about the money and carefree peace of ostrich, so we could pretend, so it is, like it was earlier again. There is no West in fact, as these matters effectively divide western countries, which Russia can easily exploit. Problem is, East does not think in the same terms, as West. What reasonable for the West, may be a proof of weakness or stupidity for the East.

Thus, I would be highly pessimistic about any negotiations from current positions with Russia. If any peace may be built on current state, it will be built on people's suffering, on injustice, at price of morality. Such construction will be not stable and will fester through decades. New flashpoint on the world map dropping blood constantly. IMO for Russia such agreement will prove (once more) one thing - extortion by strength, robbery, banditism and policy of fait accompli and insolent lies is a good idea.

Main problem is, due to Putin's amoral ambitions, there may be not choice but war or grave injustice (and more war later due to it). Russia is a troublemaker here and only Russia now has a power to end this in a good way. But so far seems, Russia has no will to do so, because, I guess, Russia believes in own, different definition of "good" and "justice".

Edited August 30, 2014 by Rydygier

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well I don't know in Serbia, but after the fall of the USSR, Russia's aperture and development has been seen with really good eyes in Europe. Some even admired some of the Putin's decisions. Russia was considered a brother country, one more of us.

During the Georgia war, everyone just thought that was a little crazy moment, nothing too bad.

But this last year, Putin has destroyed all the good reputation Russia had, and now people look at Russia as a crazy imperialistic warmonger once again, and ask for more NATO protection.

For example here in Finland last year, there were talks about getting closer, even allowing visa-free entry to Russian citizens. But now the Finnish Air Force is in high alert ( specially after the Russian air incursions inside Finland this last week ), the government and the population are willing to change the neutral status to join the NATO. Etc.

Putin has destroyed in one year, most of the links that were made after the fall of the USSR. And making neutral countries to join NATO.

Maybe there were plans for cooperation with Russia, but NATO for sure never viewed Russia as friendly or even neutral. It always had the same attitude towards Russia. If not why did it feel the need to spread east and to try to strategically encircle Russia? And Eu was never better. For example Bulgaria and Romania didn't fit any of the conditions needed to join, yet they joined in a blink of an eye.

Edited August 30, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

Maybe there were plans for cooperation with Russia, but NATO for sure never viewed Russia as friendly or even neutral. It always had the same attitude towards Russia. If not why did it feel the need to spread east and to try to strategically encircle Russia? And Eu was never better. For example Bulgaria and Romania didn't fit any of the conditions needed to join, yet they joined in a blink of an eye.

Seriously, why are you guys always repeating the same thing? NATO didn't expand anywhere, it was the countries that joined NATO. NATO is not an organisation that has some kind of evil mastermind behind it, that invades countries and annexes them, it is more of a collective of countries that one can join and the only one Russia can blame for the countries around it running to NATO is Russia itself.

---------- Post added at 09:07 ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 ----------

;2764756']@ beastcat

It is not about the terrorists/separatists. It is about Russia - a cease fire is only a step to get into serious negations to make all sides find an agreement that can live with.

Unfortunately this will likely not have a good outcome for you' date=' and potentially way worse for everyone involved.[/quote']

Although Rydygier has already written a good answer, I'll try it as well.

What kind of agreement do you have in mind that all sides can agree with? Russia will only stop when it has also gotten eastern Ukraine, Ukraine will not just give half its country to Russia. An agreement that all sides can live with is not possible, this is the reason why we have a war now. Russia will not back down and Ukraine won't just give up. This whole "Oh, lets just wait and ask Putin to stop, maybe everything will ressolve itself peacefully" attitude has already just given Crimea to Russia. In the end the west will just look weak and Russia will have gotten everything they wanted.

If a robber is robbing you, you will not go "Hey, maybe we can find an agreement. I will keep my stuff and you will just leave".

If the robber wanted some kind of agreement he wouldn't have robbed you in the first place.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Seriously, why are you guys always repeating the same thing? NATO didn't expand anywhere, it was the countries that joined NATO. NATO is not an organisation that has some kind of evil mastermind behind it, it is more of a collective of countries that one can join and the only one Russia can blame for the countries around it running to NATO is Russia itself.

Oh please. If you seriously believe that then I feel sorry for you. Do you really think that they are not trying to expand? Small countries have no control over their actions, it's the big guys who decide their faith. The sooner you realize this the better for you.

[beastcat 14]

Oh please. If you seriously believe that then I feel sorry for you. Do you really think that they are not trying to expand? Small countries have no control over their actions, it's the big guys who decide their faith.

I will try to explain a concept to you, I don't know if you will understand it or not, but here you go:

There is a thing called "free will". That means a country can decide to join or not to join. It can even leave if it really wants. It doesn't matter how small or big a country is, it is still a country and if a country decides to join NATO so Russia won't invade it like it does with all other countries, then its their choice. The soviet union doesn't exist anymore and no matter if you like it or not, the countries are sovereign and can do what they want and Russia can't do anything about it.

Just think for a minute, what does the countries around Russia joining NATO do to Russia? Yup, thats right, Russia can't invade them anymore. Defense is not an act of aggression, but I guess in Russia they consider war to be peace, freedom to be slavery and ignorance to be strength.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I will try to explain a concept to you, I don't know if you will understand it or not, but here you go:

There is a thing called "free will". That means a country can decide to join or not to join. It can even leave if it really wants. It doesn't matter how small or big a country is, it is still a country and if a country decides to join NATO so Russia won't invade it like it does with all other countries, then its their choice. The soviet union doesn't exist anymore and no matter if you like it or not, the countries are sovereign and can do what they want and Russia can't do anything about it.

Just think for a minute, what does the countries around Russia joining NATO do to Russia? Yup, thats right, Russia can't invade them anymore. Defense is not an act of aggression, but I guess in Russia they consider war to be peace, freedom to be slavery and ignorance to be strenght.

There is no free will. Saying this has made me realize how bombarded with propaganda you actually are. No small country has free will. Free will is an illusion created to keep the people happy no matter what's really going on.

And when has Russia been aggressive besides Ukraine deal? You have the history of Georgia, which shows that they were taking back what was theirs. NATO is like 10 times more aggressive than Russia, but no one says anything.

[beastcat 14]

There is no free will. Saying this has made me realize how bombarded with propaganda you actually are. No small country has free will. Free will is an illusion created to keep the people happy no matter what's really going on.

Are you by any chance a conspiracy theorist?

Poland delivered 280 tons of humanitarian aid

And unlike the russian "aid" there is actually something inside the trucks.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Are you by any chance a conspiracy theorist?

What I said is a sad truth. If you don't see it now, you will one day, or if the current information bombardment continues maybe you won't.

[beastcat 14]

What I said is a sad truth. If you don't see it now, you will one day, or if the current information bombardment continues maybe you won't.

Unplug yourself from the matrix! THEY are controlling us with chemtrails! 9/11 was an inside jew job! lol sorry

[aleksadragutin 9]

Unplug yourself from the matrix! THEY are controlling us with chemtrails! 9/11 was an inside jew job! lol sorry

Oh my god, such ignorance in such a small space. History has proof after proof after proof that what small countries do is not their interest but the interest of a higher power. Or perhaps you think that small countries are just suicidal by nature?

[.kju 3244]

Unless you aim for all out war or even nuclear conflict, there always has to be a settlement between _all_ the involved parties.

Injustices are hard to live by, yet in the end to accept or even forgive is the only way - even if it takes a very long time.

Some countries have demonstrated that in the last century, while others are unable or unwilling so far for many different reasons.

While it is not easy to get a broader perspective due to how much things have progressed, you need to keep the last year, five years,

twenty years and more in mind. This is not as simple as about Eastern Ukraine territory by any means.

The internet makes it possible to look into and follow what the think tanks, the high political, military and economical circles discuss and are aiming for.

Educate yourself if you really want to get a better understanding and not remain at the shallow news hysteria level.

And again I am not questioning a tiny bit that it is way way harder when one has way closer relation to the conflict or is directly involved.

[beastcat 14]

Or perhaps you think that small countries are just suicidal by nature?

Suicidal by nature? Thats why they are trying to save themselves from Russia? lol

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

;2764800']Unless you aim for all out war or even nuclear conflict' date=' there always has to be a settlement between _all_ the involved parties.

Injustices are hard to live by, yet in the end to accept or even forgive is the only way - even if it takes a very long time.

Some countries have demonstrated that in the last century, while others are unable or unwilling so far for many different reasons.

While it is not easy to get a broader perspective due to how much things have progressed, you need to keep the last year, five years,

twenty years and more in mind. This is not as simple as about Eastern Ukraine territory by any means.

The internet makes it possible to look into follow what the think tank, the high political, military and economical circles discuss and are aiming for.

Educate yourself if you really want to get a better understanding and not remaining that the shallow news hysteria.

And again I am not questioning a tiny bit that it is way way harder when one has way closer relation to the conflict or is directly involved.[/quote']

Don't worry, it will never come to a nuclear war, unless Russia directly attacks the US or vice versa. If you want to focus on the "big picture" and still stay realistic, Russia will probably just eventually go to a direct war with Ukraine, NATO and the EU will sit on their asses, eastern Ukraine will be annexed by Russia or turn into another Transnistria, South Ossetia or Abkhazia, depending on Russias success. The rest of Ukraine will eventually join NATO and thats it. A full-scale war between Ukraine and Russia is inevitable, unless Russia just backs out for some reason, but we know Putin is not the type of guy to back out.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Suicidal by nature? Thats why they are trying to save themselves from Russia? lol

Not save themselves from Russia, but provoke it on behalf of others.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) EU leaders consider response to Russia

On Friday, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier warned that the "already dangerous situation" in Ukraine had now entered "a whole new dimension".

"The border infringements have intensified, and raised concerns that the situation is slipping out of control.

"This needs to stop, especially if we want to avoid direct military confrontation between Ukrainian and Russian military forces."

(The Washington Post) War in Europe is not a hysterical idea

Collection of Russian Instagram posts

[beastcat 14]

Not save themselves from Russia, but provoke it on behalf of others.

Please, tell me, what are they provoking by defending themselves? Is police provoking criminals to do crimes?

[Rydygier 1309]

No small country has free will.

I would say more - no country has any will. Because will is an attribute of a person, and country isn't a person. If we are talking about the "will of the country", it is mental shortcut (those can be dangerous - misleading), it is in fact will of certain persons ruling the country by will of another persons (no rule is possible without will of the others to follow it even, if forced by terror or lies, there always is act of the free will). And every person's will is free - check it on yourself - nothing and no one can change that. If small country does, what big coutry wants, it is because rulers of this small country made a free choice to act this way.

there always has to be a settlement between _all_ the involved parties.

Although not all agreements are righteous. Not always such agreement is possible. In that case - currently I see no chance for such agreement. Lack of necessary will and understanding. And - Russia may not agree with you. There is after all possible another way to have a peace and perfect agreement - let's there be only one party left (if not literally, then at least one dominating, dictating terms of agreement), like there is only one truth. Not new idea.

yet in the end to accept or even forgive is the only way - even if it takes a very long time.

Forgiveness - always. Consent to evil, naming it good and acceptance of injustice - never. Both are separate things.

While it is not easy to get a broader perspective due to how much things have progressed, you need to keep the last year, five years,

twenty years and more in mind. This is not as simple as about Eastern Ukraine territory by any means.

True. For example history of Poland gives us quite broad perspective about, in general unchanged, Russia's ways. It is really hard for any kind of just agreement, if sides doesn't share same mentality or at least same moral principles. Same vision of the reality. If their principles are contradictory.

Don't worry, it will never come to a nuclear war, unless Russia directly attacks the US or vice versa. If you want to focus on the "big picture" and still stay realistic, Russia will probably just eventually go to a direct war with Ukraine, NATO and the EU will sit on their asses, eastern Ukraine will be annexed by Russia or turn into another Transnistria, South Ossetia or Abkhazia, depending on Russias success. The rest of Ukraine will eventually join NATO and thats it. A full-scale war between Ukraine and Russia is inevitable, unless Russia just backs out for some reason, but we know Putin is not the type of guy to back out.

Yep, something like that.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Rydygier

[beastcat 14]

So Ukraine captured this thing. This is supposedly a T-72-B3, which is made in Russia since 2013.

And Mariupol is now in combat alert, the people are ordered to get the fuck out or hide as fast as possible.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I would say more - no country has any will. Beacuse will is an attribute of a person, and country isn't a person. If we are talking about the "will of the country", it is mental shortcut (those can be dangerous - misleading), it is in fact will of certain persons ruling the country by will of another persons (no rule is possible without will of the others to follow it even, if forced by terror or lies, there always is act of the free will). And every person's will is free - check it on yourself - nothing and no one can change that. If small country does, what big coutry wants, it is because rulers of this small country made a free choice to act this way.

Well yes. But rulers don't need to act willingly when acting on behalf of a stronger country if they do it out of fear. Self gain is another thing.

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

Please, tell me, what are they provoking by defending themselves? Is police provoking criminals to do crimes?

So let's say you install a NATO base. It won't protect you from Russia as much as make you a primary target.

[beastcat 14]

So let's say you install a NATO base. It won't protect you from Russia as much as make you a primary target.

Are you saying that Russia is retarded enough to start world war 3?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Are you saying that Russia is retarded enough to start world war 3?

Don't know, but if it starts the NATO bases are going to be targets no. 1.

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

(BBC) EU leaders consider response to Russia

(The Washington Post) War in Europe is not a hysterical idea

Collection of Russian Instagram posts

The Washington posts report is full of stuff that has been taken out of context and twisted to produce hysteria. 1st the statements of Vladimir Zhirinovsky who was being sarcastic by the way, then scaring people with genocide.

[beastcat 14]

Don't know, but if it starts the NATO bases are going to be targets no. 1.

But will it really make a difference? It's better to at least try, considering Russia may not even exist before they can do serious harm.

[krycek 349]

So let's say you install a NATO base. It won't protect you from Russia as much as make you a primary target.

There won't be much of Russia if Putin is that stupid to attack a NATO country.So yes,NATO countries could become targets but in this case we're talking WW3 or do you think Russia can strike without its own destruction?

Also right now the only one who escalates this conflict is Russia,Putin's cease-fire means "you guys fuck off from eastern Ukraine and shut up while we send crapload of military gear(and troops) over the border".

Edited August 30, 2014 by Krycek