Ukraine General

[Tonci87 163]

but they were also active in war, i rememeber one article which after 10 years was showing that "muslims killed by serbs" were in real "serbs killed by muslims" , also west was not saying even a word about Albanian-Kosovo mafia and such things,

all sides of conflict were active and all sides were brutal, and i was not reffering to Bosnia but to this region near Albania, Kosovo , in 1996 if i recall correctly , there were photos of one massacre in western press, later , few years latter it was cleared,that on this photo there were Serbs dead, not Albanians dead, but this photo was used in press as to show dead Albanian Kosovo Muslims, while corpses were of Serbs, people there fight with each other for 700 years since Ottoman empire first stroke (Jihad )

----

btw about media braiwash: titles in our press since 2 days "world at the edge of III world war",

politicians are sooooo happy, noone says about economy

---

another reports about Russian forces which surround Ukrainian bases < it is breaking international law

Turkey reacts and says that Tatars are their brothers in danger

Berkut policemen getting Russian citizenship

Yeah vilas, that was one photo. but please don´t try to frame the muslims as the evil agressor in that conflict, while all sides did terrible things, they were litterally fighting for their survival. One of the ultimate goal of the serbs was the extermination of all Bosniaks. They were no better than Hitler.

on topic: I guess Erdogan sees this as a nice opportunity to divert the attention away from the big corruption scandal in wich he is involved. As far as I know Turkey previously never gave a shit when it came to the Krim Tartars.

[metalcraze 290]

You have to have organization to deliver everything required for such big amount of people, otherwise it would not have an ability to exist there for such a long time. It's not enough just to go and buy. Collecting money, organizing deals, finding a store where everything you need is at necessary amount. Even an organization of simple study practice in which I had taken part needed descent planning, budgeting etc.

You seriously underestimate our people. In an era of facebook and mobile phones it's as easy as 1.. 2.. 3..

I myself was a part of a field kitchen (that literally appeared on an empty space with 1 guy cooking food on a barrel and grew from there) which ended up feeding a Hundred of Self-Defense and an Officer Camp - all supplies are constantly being brought in by the random people.

There are many field kitchens like ours. Of course there are bigger ones too that belong to charity organizations like Maltese Help. But all are entirely independent of each other even though we sometimes trade stuff for stuff the other kitchen is missing.

Is it that hard to believe?

Weapons? Yes weapons that were used against 'ritual victims' that were murdered for sake of heating the maidan.

I'm sorry, what?

And weapons that were used against MVD troops armed with batons, smoke grenades and shields.

You mean weapons used by Maidan - stones, fireworks, wooden bats and molotov cocktails. All that is either handmade or available from the common stores. All that was used by people after 2 months of cops murdering and torturing us.

Versus MVD in a full body armor with firearms down to AKs and SVDs which were used to kill nearly a 100 people and wound ~500 on 20th Feb many of which weren't even armed, just helped build barricades. Yes those poor fucking cops.

I can also tell you about their "smoke grenades". Those retards were taking their flashbangs, duct taping shrapnel and nails to them and using them as combat grenades. One dude had a muscle torn off from his foot by one, my friend got his foot broken by one - while I fortunately only got a minor wound that I still have to this day as a reminder. So yeah those poor cops.

Or when Berkut pushed us from Union Building, blocked it and set it on fire with people inside. Burning floors from top to bottom. People were burning alive in there, some were trying to escape through windows and there was jack shit we could do. Yes tell me more about those poor fucking sadists getting abused by horrible Maidan activists armed with NATO-supplied wooden sticks.

Them poor cop batons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfejEV5C20

Those fucking sadists murdered a hundred people that could do jack shit versus their bullets on orders from a dictator gone mad and all this was happening before my eyes, I could've gotten killed too, I'm also a civilian with no military track record and I've learned that the sound of ArmA sonic cracks from AK and SVD is wrong that day - will you keep telling me this same bullshit about poor cops?

Transport - yes transport and moving lots of inhabitants from Rivno, Trenopol, Lviv, Ivan-Frankivsk. Don't be so naive, such large groups can not just think at one moment and move to Kyiv.

I just got onto an intercity bus and I was in Kyiv. Surely took me a huge effort! And I'm from Poltava too which is as eastern Ukraine as it gets. So yeah keep watching that russian TV.

Pravy sektor and Svolota played key role, I suppose you won't deny this, yes?

What are you talking about?

You need a order to create such file at first, aren't you? Collecting personal data of all those who do not share maidan ideas (including long list of bloggers who write anything against maidan) - all this must be ordered.

Bro it doesn't take any order to copy and paste Berkut names and phones database easily available to an IT department of SBU. There is no list of Berkut soldiers who were attacking Maidan specifically. Nobody also collected any long list on bloggers who wrote anything about Maidan.

Edited March 3, 2014 by metalcraze

[Nicholas 5]

Just some more interesting headlines.

Anti-Maidan protesters storm regional govt building in Donetsk - RT

Nearly a hundred pro-Russian protesters in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk have seized two floors of the regional government building, after the self-imposed Kiev government appointed a local oligarch as a Donetsk Region governor.

Russian option to send troops is only to protect human rights - Lavrov - RT

Russia’s decision to allow troops to be sent to Ukraine is meant to deter radicals from using violence in the country and to facilitate reconciliation, said Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

Five top military, security commanders take oath to Crimea - RT

A number of high ranking Ukrainian military and security officials in Crimea have sworn their allegiance to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, as Simferopol pushes for its autonomy from the self-imposed government in Kiev.

Leftist lawmaker promises bill granting Russian citizenship to any willing Ukrainian - RT

The head of the center-left Fair Russia party says a bill allowing any Ukrainian citizen Russian citizenship will be submitted to the Lower House in the near future.

Up to 10yrs’ jail for dual citizenship: Ukrainian bill targets tens of thousands - RT

A bill floating in Ukrainian parliament seeks tougher sanctions against holders of dual citizenship, which is forbidden in the country. Under the legislation, violators could be punished by a prison term of up to 10 years.

I don't know how the last two are going to hold up, meaning I'm not quite sure how they will be able to enforce it.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Nicholas

[Rydygier 1317]

" Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said. “In another world,†she said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/pressure-rising-as-obama-works-to-rein-in-russia.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

also:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140303/putin-hitler-1930s-former-czech-foreign-minister

Putin&Russia under his rule today is more and more like AH&Germany in late 30s' to me too...

Also, according to some Polish sources (citing other sources - ITAR-TASS), there are some movements of Russian fleet on Baltic Sea. "Excersises", they say... Of course.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Rydygier

[Beagle 684]

Sorry bit a lot of germans also doubt that Mrs. Merkel is still in touch with reality.

[Rydygier 1317]

:)

Anyway, sounds dangerously to all involved people, when one leader says to the second about the third such opinions. Because - how and why to do any diplomacy with man considered as lunatic? It is sign of growing conflict moods between most powerful decision makers.

[Tonci87 163]

Sorry bit a lot of germans also doubt that Mrs. Merkel is still in touch with reality.

Pretty much this^

Reality is #Neuland for Mrs. Merkel

[comm_yuri 10]

Putin either lost touch to reality or what is more likely does this all not to loose his face in front of his nation. Internal pressure, not from the government, but the fear that his image will drop because "*he didn't *protect the Russian people in Ukraine*". This doesn't justify his decisions in any way though. It's not about a single man.

[Lenyoga 326]

^ A lot of people who really listen to what their politicians talk about will doubt how much they're in touch with reality...

And I've just read about an ultimatum by the Russian military, which says that they'll attack if the Ukrainian army doesn't surrender their arms. Does anybody know anything further about this?

( http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-ukrainian-president-russia-ultimatum-crimea-20140302,0,6104716.story this and another short article in a local Austrian newspaper)

[comm_yuri 10]

^ A lot of people who really listen to what their politicians talk about will doubt how much they're in touch with reality...

And I've just read about an ultimatum by the Russian military, which says that they'll attack if the Ukrainian army doesn't surrender their arms. Does anybody know anything further about this?

( http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-ukrainian-president-russia-ultimatum-crimea-20140302,0,6104716.story this and another short article in a local Austrian newspaper)

If the Russian army does that, it will just rapidly increase the determination of the Ukrainian people to stand against the invader/agressor and eventualy ignite a full scale conflict.

[mistyronin 1181]

Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax

[krzychuzokecia 719]

It's obvious this action is part of their famous - "muscle flexing", show-off by best equipped forces in the country (because everyone expected red faced boots dressed in flora uniforms with steel helmets).

Yup, but because they (Russian military) are unmarked, it makes harder to act for Ukraine - Ukraine will be treated like an aggressor. Just like in Georgia, when Saakashvili went direct into Russian trap (and started the war).

While we're at it: Polish TV cites Interfax, that Ukrainian MoD said that they'll attack tomorrow, if Russian forces won't surrender. Is that true, or did the TV mixed it with Russian ultimatum? (Can't find any info on Interfax web)

[spooky lynx 73]

You seriously underestimate our people. In an era of facebook and mobile phones it's as easy as 1.. 2.. 3..

I myself was a part of a field kitchen (that literally appeared on an empty space with 1 guy cooking food on a barrel and grew from there) which ended up feeding a Hundred of Self-Defense and an Officer Camp - all supplies are constantly being brought in by the random people.

There are many field kitchens like ours. Of course there are bigger ones too that belong to charity organizations like Maltese Help. But all are entirely independent of each other even though we sometimes trade stuff for stuff the other kitchen is missing.

Nope. I was in an era of facebook (or VKontakte) and cellphones too but without proper planning and advicing simple university practice in the mountains turned to hell. So I don't believe such huge mess was spontaneous and was organized just by average Joes via facebook. Please leave this tales alone.

1) Who told you to be a part of kitchen?

2) Who told 'random people' to bring necessary amount of food supplies in a needed time?

Is it that hard to believe?

I'm sorry, what?

What? Those who were supposedly shot by MVD troops had wounds from behind and made by ammo that is not used by Berkut or VV. Ritual victims that heated up protesters. Ole good way to sparkle up any uprising.

You mean weapons used by Maidan - stones, fireworks, wooden bats and molotov cocktails. All that is either handmade or available from the common stores. All that was used by people after 2 months of cops murdering and torturing us.

Versus MVD in a full body armor with firearms down to AKs and SVDs which were used to kill nearly a 100 people and wound ~500 on 20th Feb many of which weren't even armed, just helped build barricades. Yes those poor fucking cops.

No I mean weapons that were able to penetrate armor of MVD transport and molotov cocktails used to be fired at MVD in January.

I can also tell you about their "smoke grenades". Those retards were taking their flashbangs, duct taping shrapnel and nails to them and using them as combat grenades. One dude had a muscle torn off from his foot by one, my friend got his foot broken by one - while I fortunately only got a minor wound that I still have to this day as a reminder. So yeah those poor cops.

When you are under fire by molotovs and don't get an order to crack down revolt - that's predictable.

Or when Berkut pushed us from Union Building, blocked it and set it on fire with people inside. Burning floors from top to bottom. People were burning alive in there, some were trying to escape through windows and there was jack shit we could do. Yes tell me more about those poor fucking sadists getting abused by horrible Maidan activists armed with NATO-supplied wooden sticks.

Them poor cop batons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfejEV5C20

Those fucking sadists murdered a hundred people that could do jack shit versus their bullets on orders from a dictator gone mad and all this was happening before my eyes, I could've gotten killed too, I'm also a civilian with no military track record and I've learned that the sound of ArmA sonic cracks from AK and SVD is wrong that day - will you keep telling me this same bullshit about poor cops?

Any photos of burned poor protesters? I keep an eye on this topic but hadn't find any. Or is it just horror dream after 'grass tea'?

I just got onto an intercity bus and I was in Kyiv. Surely took me a huge effort! And I'm from Poltava too which is as eastern Ukraine as it gets. So yeah keep watching that russian TV.

It takes an effort to gather a group of raguli and transport them to the Kyiv. And make same as you do the same.

BTW are you from Poltava itself or from region?

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about Parubiy.

Bro it doesn't take any order to copy and paste Berkut names and phones database easily available to an IT department of SBU. There is no list of Berkut soldiers who were attacking Maidan specifically. Nobody also collected any long list on bloggers who wrote anything about Maidan.

Oh please don't tell me fairytales. I may access to much of info in my company but I have to be asked at least to find needed and copy it.

And...

[kmossco 9]

I just find so strange that beside the standard call from Obama/Merkel and diplomatic announcements, no country left a finger. Austria and Switzerland didn't mention about Russian money, England doesn't mention the money getting in the country (in house/car/business purchases) from shady origins. And now Merkel says Putin is not in touch with reality. I just think that Putin knows Europe won't lift a finger for Ukraine and has leverage enough to do whatever he pleases. That to me is being in touch with European reality. Money is more important than Ukrainian lives.

Also, I find it strange that the european union was so eager to accept the new government instituted by the Ukrainian riots. That opens a big precedent in my opinion. Not long ago Turkey was in the brink of something this magnitude, would they have accepted the government there too?

[spooky lynx 73]

Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax

Could not find any similar page on the Interfax site so probably false.

I just find so strange that beside the standard call from Obama/Merkel and diplomatic announcements, no country left a finger. Austria and Switzerland didn't mention about Russian money, England doesn't mention the money getting in the country (in house/car/business purchases) from shady origins. And now Merkel says Putin is not in touch with reality. I just think that Putin knows Europe won't lift a finger for Ukraine and has leverage enough to do whatever he pleases. That to me is being in touch with European reality. Money is more important than Ukrainian lives.

Also, I find it strange that the european union was so eager to accept the new government instituted by the Ukrainian riots. That opens a big precedent in my opinion. Not long ago Turkey was in the brink of something this magnitude, would they have accepted the government there too?

Maybe it's because EU perfectly realises that all this Ukrainian mess is nothing like attempt to change one oligarchy group and for another one (more friendly to EU)? They definitely know that Poroshenko, Firtash, Pinchuk, Taruta, Kolomoisky do not differ much from Yanuk's sponsors. And they mey be asked by you why 'freedom fighter' Yatsenyuk has a mansion in several hundreds meters far from notorious 'corruption museum Mezhigorye'.

[Yairweinberg 1]

No the ultimatum is there its all over the news here.

Ukraine either surrenders to Russia by 5:00 AM Russia Time or it will be attacked.

This is getting very interesting....

http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/03/russian-navy-tells-ukrainian-forces-in-crimea-to-surrender---reports/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-03/russian-fleet-gives-ukrainian-crimea-forces-ultimatum-surrender-or-face-storm-ukrain

Edited March 3, 2014 by Yairweinberg

[mistyronin 1181]

I just think that Putin knows Europe won't lift a finger for Ukraine and has leverage enough to do whatever he pleases. That to me is being in touch with European reality.

Putin is playing at the game of the chicken, first he tried with the invasion Georgia... The US/EU barked a lot, but no serious answer, now its Ukraine's turn... and keep going; until the world says 'enough'. That has already happened in human history ( what did the world when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, or annexed Austria, or when Russia invaded Finland? ).

Putin knows that the EU / US are afraid of giving any strong answer ( because it would mean losing votes, as in western democracies warmongering its really bad seen ).

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[fabio_chavez 103]

peter beinart

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/no-american-weakness-didnt-encourage-putin-to-invade-ukraine/284168/

[sudayev 27]

While we're at it: Polish TV cites Interfax, that Ukrainian MoD said that they'll attack tomorrow, if Russian forces won't surrender. Is that true, or did the TV mixed it with Russian ultimatum? (Can't find any info on Interfax web)

Another news for today is - large military manoeuvres in the enclave of Kaliningrad near Poland's northern border.

Wojsko Polskie is regrouping forces!

[mistyronin 1181]

(RIA Novosti ) Russia Conducts Live Fire Exercises in Baltic

[scrim 1]

Yup, but because they (Russian military) are unmarked, it makes harder to act for Ukraine - Ukraine will be treated like an aggressor. Just like in Georgia, when Saakashvili went direct into Russian trap (and started the war).

Hardly, this time it's different. This time the Russians haven't been able to cover up their direct military involvement even a little, and now they're even saying themselves that it is their troops, and it is they who issued the ultimatum. Hopefully the Ukrainian military will stand their ground for as long as possible, without taking extreme losses, like the Royal Marines did at the Falklands when the Argentinians invaded.

Let Putin do whatever he thinks he can do. Let's just isolate Russia from the rest of the world, like during the Cold war again, and within half a decade, they'll be fighting with their "friends", like the Chinese and such so much that they are driven more to the West, whilst Russia descends further and further into an economic downwards spiral, or are forced to cut down on military spending so much they can't threaten their neighbours any longer. It's enough that deranged rulers in Moscow choked democracy and peace in Eastern Europe from the end of WW2 to the downfall of the USSR, let's not let that happen again at any price.

[comm_yuri 10]

Ukrainian military should stand it's ground and everyone who is still for souvereignity and integrity of nations should support Ukraine. Otherwise I don't see why other countries in Europe shouldn't desintigrate as well.

[Tonci87 163]

(RIA Novosti ) Russia Conducts Live Fire Exercises in Baltic

I guess that those troops might be flown over to the Ukraine as a reserve.

[spooky lynx 73]

Some countries were already desintegrated. I hadn't seen any protests here because of split between Serbia and Montenegro. The same goes to Kosovo.

[krzychuzokecia 719]

So I don't believe such huge mess was spontaneous and was organized just by average Joes via facebook. Please leave this tales alone.

1) Who told you to be a part of kitchen?

2) Who told 'random people' to bring necessary amount of food supplies in a needed time?

And again that old "agents of evil west" story... You have to understand that EU (or NATO) have no interest in Ukraine joining them! Otherwise, Ukraine would be already part of the Union. EU is interested in leaving status quo in this region - leaving Ukraine to Russia's will. Problem is that Ukrainian people don't want to be Russia ally, that's why they protest so vigorously. If "the West" helped them, then Russian Black Sea Fleet would be already fleeing to it's country...

I don't say that western countries don't use their people to spark some revolts - they do (remember Libya?), but everyone knows about it. And Russia also have "their people" where they want. Heck, even in Polish Parliament we have whole party formed from former communists! But this is an effect of "going the peace way", and making deal with the regime.

Those who were supposedly shot by MVD troops had wounds from behind and made by ammo that is not used by Berkut or VV. (...) weapons that were able to penetrate armor of MVD transport and molotov cocktails used to be fired at MVD in January.

Oh yes, Molotov coctails (super-secret weapon made in US Skunk Works laboratory), and bullets that fly through BTR's armor (we all know that BTR is heavily protected, as much as Merkava tank)...

When Maidan protest was shed with blood, I was watching western, and eastern TV. I saw police using AKMS carbines, shotguns and British AI sniper rifles. What had the "blood-thirsty" "ritual-killing" protesters? Mainly hand weapons: wooden "batons", Molotovs, infamous catapult, airguns, traumatic pistols (guns for rubber bullet, popular in Russia and Ukraine where you can't own normal handgun), very few hunting rifles (well, that's "a weapon" - hunting rifle is not much different than "military" sniper rifle). No Kalashnikovs, no shotguns - even on Russia Today! So, if someone from police forces was hit with AK bullet, my bet is that he was shoot by one of his former colleagues - even some of Berkut troops changed sides during "riots".

But this whole "Maidan discussion" is now only distraction from the war going on in Crimea. West does nothing about it (apart from usual chit-chats), and this clearly shows that none of the "democratic leaders" cares for what happens in Ukraine. It's 1938 again, which leads directly to 1939. This time it may be not so bloody, but effects will be the same (well, OK, effects would be rather reminding 1945).