Ukraine General

[Beagle 684]

Hey why not, when things escalated, all that was on the news around here was "justing beiber jailed again" ...sickening.

There really is nothing to be gained from watching the news over here outside of the weather, major events are twisted or focusing on something that doesn't have any relevance to anything ultimately.

Unless its a shooting, then the media turns them into an anti hero...but I digress, western news or at least most of the news over here is fucked on priority.

The truth is somewhere beetween the new York Times and Rossiskaja Gaseta....you have too read them both to get a picture.

[vilas 473]

few minutes ago, according to press "not-Russian" soldiers get into Ukrainian army base , so far no news about fight, but about fact of getting "uknown" into base

Russians demand key to armory of army base of Ukrainians, so Russians attacked terrain of Ukrainian military base !!!

Edited March 4, 2014 by vilas

[sudayev 27]

First KGB-ist also made a commend regarding the gear of so called self defense forces - anyone can buy such things in stores offering military gear. Including weapons like AK's,pkp, svd, vss, all the optical gear. Suddenly they came out from their homes, loaded up and jumped onto tiger trucks, ural's and btr.

I haven't heard such baloney in a long time.

[vilas 473]

meanwhile another WTF, Ukraine ambassador to UN, Yuri Serheyev said that proofs of crimes of Ukrainian Nazis during WW2 were fabricated by USSR and theose proofs are false, wtf ???

they want help and the same time deny WW2 nazi crimes which all 80 y.o. or 90 y.o. Poles remember including my family members who come from pre-WW2 territory of Poland (now Belarus) ? wtf, those guys want help or want us to wish them death ?

[spooky lynx 73]

meanwhile another WTF, Ukraine ambassador to UN, Yuri Serheyev said that proofs of crimes of Ukrainian Nazis during WW2 were fabricated by USSR and theose proofs are false, wtf ???

they want help and the same time deny WW2 nazi crimes which all 80 y.o. or 90 y.o. Poles remember including my family members who come from pre-WW2 territory of Poland (now Belarus) ? wtf, those guys want help or want us to wish them death ?

Need any other proof of wide affiliation of current junta with nazis?

[vilas 473]

i was not denying their existence, question is how much of them are there, 1%, 5%, 10%, 20% ?

[mistyronin 1181]

First KGB-ist also made a commend regarding the gear of so called self defense forces - anyone can buy such things in stores offering military gear. Including weapons like AK's,pkp, svd, vss, all the optical gear. Suddenly they came out from their homes, loaded up and jumped onto tiger trucks, ural's and btr.

The cool thing, is that all dress the same way, I assume the pack "look like an elite Russian soldier" was on sales in the Crimean Amazon website, it even had as a gift the manual "how to keep self-control and learn Russian military drills for dummies". With a 99% discount, who would say no?

The first 1.000 sets came with a SVD Dragunov fully equiped.

Even more funnier is that they organized it in just one night, the offer was so good... They are obviously a few improvised amateur fools that rised to protect their families, just farmers and fishermen... unlike that terrorist mercenaries in Kiev who had been taught by Delta Force, SEAL, SAS, GROM and all the Western special forces... payed thrilions of dollars; that's why they had that awesome sticks, molotov cocktails and a few pellet guns... an outstanding organization, all dressed with diff camos and all kind of cheap clothes...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Need any other proof of wide affiliation of current junta with nazis?

Yes, i need more. Up to now, i have had my fair share of lies from Moscow.

[spooky lynx 73]

Yes, i need more. Up to now, i have had my fair share of lies from Moscow.

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eTlQwO6xl38

[Amra 10]

I feel like I should apologise about the downright retarded behaviour of the UK's government. Sending angry letters isn't going to cut it.

Put your hand on the chest and say "We're all ukrainians today".

The first thing bandera-lovers nazies did when they kicked that thief Yanukovich was ban of russian language under the threat of criminal prosecution. We all saw how for example scrim in this thread warmly welcomed this decision. You can easily find videos on youtube where bandera-lovers nazies (who now in charge in Kiev) shouted "put russians on the knives", "throw russians and jews out of Ukraine", etc. It really makes me feel good to see how you guys, who directly or indirectly support those scumbags, now squeal and yell. Please don't stop it.

[sudayev 27]

Even more funnier is that they organized it in just one night, the offer was so good... They are obviously a few improvised amateur fools that rised to protect their families, just farmers and fishermen... unlike that terrorist mercenaries in Kiev who had been taught by Delta Force, SEAL, SAS, GROM and all the Western special forces... payed thrilions of dollars; that's why they had that awesome sticks, molotov cocktails and a few pellet guns... an outstanding organization, all dressed with diff camos and all kind of cheap clothes...

In today's speech Putin replied to journalist who asked about unmarked troops and their gear.

"Dear comrade, take a look how well organized were protest groups from Kiev, As we know they trained in Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine. They were trained from very long time, hundreds of them even thousands, perfectly working - just like you saw, almost like Spetsnaz. (earlier he said the uniforms and gear are scattered along the post soviet states and available in every store)

It says:

up: local self defense, dressed and equipped with store bought stuff

bottom: One of Mayadan's fascists, trained and equipped in Poland.

Merkel was right, Putin is delusional. He believes own propaganda.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Sudayev

[hellfire257 3]

Put your hand on the chest and say "We're all ukrainians today".

The first thing bandera-lovers nazies did when they kicked that thief Yanukovich was ban of russian language under the threat of criminal prosecution. We all saw how for example scrim in this thread warmly welcomed this decision. You can easily find videos on youtube where bandera-lovers nazies (who now in charge in Kiev) shouted "put russians on the knives", "throw russians and jews out of Ukraine", etc. It really makes me feel good to see how you guys, who directly or indirectly support those scumbags, now squeal and yell. Please don't stop it.

Thank-you for pinning that badge on me, Amra. Notice how I didn't mention who was right or wrong? Yeah...

[Amra 10]

Thank-you for pinning that badge on me, Amra. Notice how I didn't mention who was right or wrong? Yeah...

Forgive me if I was wrong.

[vilas 473]

1 or even 5 % nazis in such situation is normal - because when ONE nation pushes/a SECOND nation and there is poverty around - it is as natural as fungi in forest after rain,

if they are 20% then it is huuuuuge problem

those 1-5 % will disappear when country will normalize and people get off from poverty and when people will see foreign nations help (west)

but isolation will only make it worse

i said many pages ago why nazism appears and how to cure it

poverty, corruption, isolation, pression of other nation (which was previously "occupant" in history) WILL NOT solve it but FUEL it

those who think that Russian pression will make nazism gone, those are not logic

to remove it, people must know that nazis are wrong, so people must see that they are not right (education, wealth, foreigners friendly, no Russian pression and Russian help to Yanuk)

it is like with North Korean people - they believe in their brainwashed ideas, when they see REAL world, they are shocked and change mind , 1% of human population always will be moron, lunatic, sick, psychopathic

Edited March 4, 2014 by vilas

[Amra 10]

1 or even 5 % nazis in such situation is normal - because when ONE nation pushes/a SECOND nation and there is poverty around - it is as natural as fungi in forest after rain,

if they are 20% then it is huuuuuge problem

those 1-5 % will disappear when country will normalize and people get off from poverty and when people will see foreign nations help (west)

but isolation will only make it worse

i said many pages ago why nazism appears and how to cure it

poverty, corruption, isolation, pression of other nation (which was previously "occupant" in history) WILL NOT solve it but FUEL it

those who think that Russian pression will make nazism gone, those are not logic

You was so surprised to see how those scumbags justify their nazi-past in UN and now you tell me it's normal. You know, Vilas, you'd better tie up the loose ends.

[spooky lynx 73]

It's normal when there are just 5% of nazis around. But if they are closely tied to junta and get full support from new ministers and Rada - it may turn to some nasty things. Nobody had said any words condemning any actions and ideology of Svoboda or Pravy sektor. So the problem is not in plain numbers but in support that those guys get.

[vilas 473]

You was so surprised to see how those scumbags justify their nazi-past in UN and now you tell me it's normal. You know, Vilas, you'd better tie up the loose ends.

i repeat what i told before

always in such situation people go extreme, always in every human community you have 1-2% of cycos,

it is difference if someone put camera to madhouse and say "those are people" and put camera on street "those are people"

those 2 cameras put in different place show different groups,

showing 1% do not show 99%, in Poland we also have some weird politicians telling weird things and their voting support is like 0.7-1.5%

thats why i think most important is what is their number and their support, if they are few % , screw them, they exist everywhere in few %, even in Isreal there are people who believe that Jahve gave them right rule the world (Rabin Owadia Josef told in 2013, that Jews are given by god law to rule the world and every non-Jew must be a slave, cause "non-Jews are born to be our slaves" and "non-Jews are animals" and "god created non-Jews to obey us" ) , i even seen photos of Black guy in t-shirt with swastika, so different things happen

Edited March 4, 2014 by vilas

[krzychuzokecia 700]

Not exactly. Agents of just another group of oligarchs who have nothing common with transparency, democracy and will to develop own country. With the help of mrs.Nuland etc. Why should EU and US lose profit?

Thing is that EU have no profit in Ukraine joining them! The profit is in Russia, so any actions against Putin's will may bring an end to "good business". Just read this (if You haven't already):

BBC

Buzzfeed

Telegraph

If EU had any profit in Ukraine, Yanukovych would sign an agreement last year and there'd be no Maidan - because the only one "power" who want Ukraine join EU are people. You may write about hundreds of Russian-Ukraine joint ventures, but in mind of typical Ukrainian these companies bring profit only to Russia (and oligarchs). They feel like Russian colony, and they want break this connection.

And even political opposition of Yanukovich is not so Euro-enthusiastical - Tymoshenko's husband (an oligarch) also makes businesses with Russians.

Hadn't you forgot that maidan is unarmed protest and there should not be any weapon that can penetrate BTR or armored police car?;)

When maidan was 'shed with blood' there were numerous attacks of police forces commited by rioters before. So they got revenge.

First: police is not to give revenge, but to protect ("and to serve"). Second: BTR wasn't penetrated by any AT weapon, but burned with Molotovs. And this happened after people on Maidan were shot by "revenging" police.

Oh and why 'West' should care about junta that sides with nazis and grants a chairs of governors to oligarchs?

Sorry, but this "Nazis" thing is getting old - even Josip Broz Tito (leader of communist Yugoslavia) was once called "Nazi" by Soviet propaganda. Yes, there were OUN/UPA (organization established during WWII, allied to Third Reich, and responsible for killing thousands of Poles in Wolyn Massacre) flags waving, but people who brought them there have no idea about their real meaning - for them it's only symbol their know of Ukraine without communism (or Russian influences). This is analogical to young American socialists who display t-shirts with Che Guevara or Stalin, who also sent to death many, many people. Stupidity, but at this moment it's not dangerous (it's signal that they should be educated).

What I'm really curious is to know what's his master-plan... He hasn't been able to provoke the Ukrainian army and repeat another Georgia, yet. He has already tried to bribe them ( with some success ), so what's next? Keeping under siege until they need food and water?

What's funny is that the new self appointed Crimean PM Sergiy Aksyonov won only 4% at the last elections in Crimea. Wonderful.

I think that is Putins' next step: organize referendum ("guarded" by "Russian self-defence") in which illegal* gov't of Crimea would be legalized. But where he'd stop? In Berlin once again? (Again my favorite geopolitics and importance of Germany as an obstacle for Russia to become global power/leader)

*Well, if new Kiev's gov't is illegal, then new Crimea gov't is too - however I can't hear Putin crying about it. Maybe because Putin is playing his game, but refuses others to play their?

What should the US do? Try everything they can politically to stop this expansion, and not unnecessarily raise tensions between the US and Russia. That would be a bad thing. At the end of the day this happened in Georgia (another NATO member state I believe?) and the US (or more specifically, NATO) did nothing to stop the Russia from invading it. It will happen in the Crimea this time round, unless America does anything stupid then there won't be a serious escalation.

But this is what Putin wants - USA may block his visa, heck, they can even block his foreign accounts (though I doubt he have one - he's the Czar, the Emperor, Russia is Putin). But this won't stop his tanks. A concentration of military forces on NATO eastern border (without going to Ukraine) would be a clear signal. (The "John Rambo" way of sending SF into Crimea would work, if there was oil :D In 2003 Poland wasn't officially part of US-UK invasion in Iraq, but GROM was fighting for Umm Qasr port where most of Saddam's oil was exported)

@MistyRonin

So again, the main culprit of the poverty, unemployment, etc. in the eastern countries is their own politicians; not "the West"; because it was them that when the change to capitalism thought that the only way to keep their power is to have money; so they sold all their countries main companies to the best payer.

This is an off-topic, but as some facts obvious in Poland are unknown in Europe/"the West", I'll add something.

Your statement may be true in case of Ukraine (though western companies are not so active there, and simple comparison may be wrong), but in Poland western companies and bankers where advising to communist party since 1985 - actually it was party (not the opposition) who suggested "transformation" to capitalism! The key to this lies in Polish "private" companies active in western market - these firms were established by Polish intelligence service, and used to laundry money stolen from the people (by communist law everything was OK). Because this business was going good, communists and their western co-operants, did everything to let it continue - thus Polish capitalism was set up to allow communists (and their "allies") make profits, while others were handicapped.

The Ultra right wing parties say what people want to hear, that's the meaning of populism. They promise the heaven to get to the power, and once they are there, they forbid any opposition and do what they want.

The same You can say about left wing parties, and that's even better comparison to Polish "hatred" towards western companies - that's old Marxist theory about conflict between capitalists ("owners") and workers. Actually, here Marx was 100% right!

ACHTUNG! CAUTION! PRIMANYE!

Polish media say that Yanukovych died on heart attack! Can anybody confirm/deny this, or is it BS?

[nodunit 397]

In today's speech Putin replied to journalist who asked about unmarked troops and their gear.

"Dear comrade, take a look how well organized were protest groups from Kiev, As we know they trained in Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine. They were trained from very long time, hundreds of them even thousands, perfectly working - just like you saw, almost like Spetsnaz. (earlier he said the uniforms and gear are scattered along the post soviet states and available in every store)

Merkel was right, Putin is delusional. He believes own propaganda.

Oh yes they were so well trained and equipped with their slingshots, rocks and catapults...I mean when digging up stones from pavement, it doesn't get much more basic than that.

[Tonci87 163]

The Nazi Card gets played way too fast in eastern media. When Croatia declared it´s independence serbian and russian media was very quick to frame all croatians as bloodthirsty nazis who want to butcher every non croatian on the balkan.

Yeah.. Guess what, they lied.

The same is happening now. I´m not saying that there aren´t a few nazis among the maidan protesters, or even in the new government, but they will get sorted out rather fast.

I guess the common Ukrainian likes nazis just as much as the common Russian.

@Spooky, please show me evidence of a BTR that has been pierced by something. At no point did I see anyone with an AT launcher, or a high caliber rifle. What I did see was a BTR that tried to drive head first into the barricades and got showered in molotovs (and he deserved it for trying to run over people)

[comm_yuri 10]

^ this .... what angers, scares and concerns me more is the fact that many people in Central Europe are stupid enough to fall for such basic kindergarden propaganda and don't care about educating themselves.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[ProfTournesol 956]

This handful of "Nazis" are the best allies of Putin's regime and propaganda. What he really fears are pro democracy movements.

[scrim 1]

It's normal when there are just 5% of nazis around. But if they are closely tied to junta and get full support from new ministers and Rada - it may turn to some nasty things. Nobody had said any words condemning any actions and ideology of Svoboda or Pravy sektor. So the problem is not in plain numbers but in support that those guys get.

Yes, we all know that really, Russia is liberating us all from Nazism in another Great Patriotic War. But all of us who don't support Russia's invasion of Crimea really secretly support the Nazis, because democracy, and that's why Putin undermining what little democracy exists in Russia means that we're all really just inferior to you. Admit it, that's pretty much what you think about us, don't you?

[hellfire257 3]

Forgive me if I was wrong.

With things like these, I often see them as a massive cascade of failures by both sides, so I find it difficult to pick a side.

[spooky lynx 73]

Thing is that EU have no profit in Ukraine joining them! The profit is in Russia, so any actions against Putin's will may bring an end to "good business". Just read this (if You haven't already):

BBC

Buzzfeed

Telegraph

Without profit there would not be so many EU officials during maidan. Yes, actions against Putin will may bring an end to one good business. And start for another (hint: Privat bank, new governors of eastern and southern Ukrainian regions).

If EU had any profit in Ukraine, Yanukovych would sign an agreement last year and there'd be no Maidan - because the only one "power" who want Ukraine join EU are people. You may write about hundreds of Russian-Ukraine joint ventures, but in mind of typical Ukrainian these companies bring profit only to Russia (and oligarchs). They feel like Russian colony, and they want break this connection.

And even political opposition of Yanukovich is not so Euro-enthusiastical - Tymoshenko's husband (an oligarch) also makes businesses with Russians.

Not only Yanukovich may sign EU deal.

Joint ventures bring salaries to Ukrainians, moreover large part of its production is sold to Russia. They want to break connection, really? Where will they get work then?

First: police is not to give revenge, but to protect ("and to serve"). Second: BTR wasn't penetrated by any AT weapon, but burned with Molotovs. And this happened after people on Maidan were shot by "revenging" police.

Police is people too. So it may revenge. I don't speak about BTR but trucks and anti-riot vehicles. That were damaged before main mess.

Sorry, but this "Nazis" thing is getting old - even Josip Broz Tito (leader of communist Yugoslavia) was once called "Nazi" by Soviet propaganda. Yes, there were OUN/UPA (organization established during WWII, allied to Third Reich, and responsible for killing thousands of Poles in Wolyn Massacre) flags waving, but people who brought them there have no idea about their real meaning - for them it's only symbol their know of Ukraine without communism (or Russian influences). This is analogical to young American socialists who display t-shirts with Che Guevara or Stalin, who also sent to death many, many people. Stupidity, but at this moment it's not dangerous (it's signal that they should be educated).

I don't believe my eyes - Pole is advocating UPA... No idea? Do you think they are just sheep that do not know what flag they wave? Wrong. Unfortunately wrong. Symbol of Ukraine without communism is zhovto-blekitny prapor, but black-red one is clearly UPA one. And this is analogical to young Americans who wear T-shirts with celtic cross or KKK emblem.

I think that is Putins' next step: organize referendum ("guarded" by "Russian self-defence") in which illegal* gov't of Crimea would be legalized. But where he'd stop? In Berlin once again? (Again my favorite geopolitics and importance of Germany as an obstacle for Russia to become global power/leader)

*Well, if new Kiev's gov't is illegal, then new Crimea gov't is too - however I can't hear Putin crying about it. Maybe because Putin is playing his game, but refuses others to play their?

Hypocrisy at its best...

ACHTUNG! CAUTION! PRIMANYE!

Polish media say that Yanukovych died on heart attack! Can anybody confirm/deny this, or is it BS?

First grade BS. Junta needs any reason to wipe out Yanuk, because he as alive and not ousted legally president may be a key figure for fully legal (according to both internal Ukrainian and international laws) way to bringing our army in full-scale mess. He already signed a petition to Putin whom he asked to help with dispersion of junta. And, looking at panic at junta and silence in UN and EU it is legally clean way.

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

Yes, we all know that really, Russia is liberating us all from Nazism in another Great Patriotic War. But all of us who don't support Russia's invasion of Crimea really secretly support the Nazis, because democracy, and that's why Putin undermining what little democracy exists in Russia means that we're all really just inferior to you. Admit it, that's pretty much what you think about us, don't you?

To be honest I think we should stop at USSR border in 40's and leave others to deal with Hitler alone.

You may don't support Russia's 'invasion' of Crimea or may do - it's your business. You may see, I even admit the right for far-rights to exist, so pleas leave your 'democracy in danger!!!!1' fetish with yourself.

P.S. Again someone's butthurt makes me laugh.