Ukraine General

[krycek 349]

At this stage even if that psycho Putin decides to invade more than Crimea,Nato will say "hey don't do that,ok you did it,no don't cross that line,oh you did it again,that's it cross this and you're in trouble,damn..." and so on.

The only hope Kiev have is that the ruskies(probably) won't be able to sustain a war for a long time in Ukraine with such a big territory to cover and sooner or later dents in russian army will appear.

[mistyronin 1181]

What it's kind of curious to me it's how fast everything developed, like if it was staged. If that was the case, I'm also curious to where is gonna continue.

Another thing that bugs me a lot, it's why that "self-defence troops" don't wear any kind identification nor flag. Which may not seem important, but with the Geneve convention at hand that would turn them into unlawful combatants.

[Tonci87 163]

Ukraine calls in Reservists. General mobilisation is under way.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ukrainian troops who locked themselves in after Russian troops surrounded the base, at the stand-off at the Crimean military base of Perevalnoe.

[vilas 473]

ProfTournesol : That makes me think that Putin is maybe making a major mistake here : what's happening in Crimea will increase the national feeling of all Ukrainians, whatever they may think of Maidan.

you are right, exactly, every action causes reaction, 2nd dynamic rule of Newton,

the more Russia press Ukraine, the more nationalists tensions are among Ukrainians,

the more Russia shout about "nationalists", the more popular they are getting,

cause people who are under pression begun to be more extremistic,

Hitler was not voted cause people hated other people Hitler was voted cause there was ruined economy, unemployment, poverty and enormous rich banks which were owned by non-German people,

so Hitler focused hate against rich and enter-pronoun Jews which had money cause they were bank owners,

the same was with nationalism of Ukraine, it will be growing and will be more radical when Ukrainian people will be pushed under pressure,

the main reason for all tensions is economy, rich vs poor, poverty vs palaces,

EU tries to make politics of equalization of people in economy - this is perfect way to avoid tensions and perfect way to get rid of hate,

but when in countries there is third world scenery - poverty of majority vs. small group of very rich (and lots of those rich are not native, but they have international roots, than nationalism is expanding)

the biggest source of nationalism in history is when elite is not from nation,

examples from history:

past centuries - kings , royal families were not from nations, religion of king was different than religion of people, this was causing revolutions, causing religion wars, Catholics vs. Protestants, Catholic vs. Orthodox,

Nazism of Hitler, the same - Germans in poverty after war, Jews keeping banks

Ukraine during 30s and WW2 Nazism as result - Jews in NKVD as officers (cause previously they suffered under Tsar and they wanted to join party which will accept them), starvation of usual people vs. luxury for officers of NKVD,

Ukrainian nationalism in beginning from XVIII century - cause Poles were knights, nobles, counts, earls, magnates there and Ukrainians were our slaves,

Polish hate to Russians when 17 09 1939 Stalin invaded us after Hitler by stabbing our back when they had power and we not, Russian hate when we occupied them in XVI century or XVII century, when we had gold and they were poor,

keeping elite that is not identified by people during crisis = nationalism explosion

when people have good economical condition, they do not care if prime minister or bank owner is Jew, Pole, French, German, Russian,

they do not care cause they have their stomach full

when people have poverty they look "i am from that nation, guy who owns this company is from other nation, i am unemployed and guy who took my job is from other nation" because in hard times our instincts call us to join our groups, cause we can only colocate ourselves among people which are similar (the same economical status)

to kill nationalism you must:

- kill inequalities, there cannot be poverty, high unemployment, visible hurting eyes very rich small group,

- keep majority economical status at level that they do not feel anger, jealousy,

- allow people to do what they find as their culture (if majority is religious, do not close churches),

- integrate minority with majority, so there will be no "closed groups" and "ghettos",

- do not allow minority to dictate rules to majority (for example in city in which Christians are 80% do not forbid to put Christmas tree or sell of alcohol cause 5% of Muslims are against it)

by following this steps you remove tensions and hate,

if someone doesn't remove those problems, he is going to have ultra-nationalism,

simple example from Poland from last week, one German owned company wished that every person who is employed speaks German cause boss speaks only German, which makes frustration and hate cause "i am native, i am local, i speak Polish , i wanted to work but they refused me cause they are from abroad and want me to speak their language while they are guests here"- says local people looking for job who do not speak German, if local people had jobs, if their stomach was full, if they had big salary, they would not bother that boss wants to speak with his workers on language he knows, they would go to other company which also looks for employees, when there is no other company and when stomach is empty, than it becomes to be a huge problem causing stress and hate looking to national issues,

Europe developed something good when tried to put people on similar level of economy, those who are poor , those go extreme, like my nation, like Ukraine, military will not fix, it can be fixed only by jobs, sales, money, luxury

only full-stomach people do not have reason to hate, empty-stomach is looking for who is guilty that there is no job for him and it is natural, globalization also causes nationalism, because when your boss is from abroad, than you do not feel comfortable when he criticizes your job, fire you from job or doesn't want you for job cause he already hired other person,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

about what Wipman wrote:

those who think that nationalism can be eliminated by military force are blind, it will only make more and more nationalism,

it can be eliminated only via pocket full of money, easy job, lack of cares about job, cause money give happiness, it is already proven by psychologists, wealthy people are less stressed, have lower risk of heart stroke, live longer, you can buy happiness, just like by removing money you can "found" anger, people living in extreme poverty are much much much more stressed, when boss or company who doesn't hired them has abroad management , they become nationalists,

the-same economical level people from different nations can be friends, different economical level people from different nations became much bigger enemies than the same nation people with different economical status, if someone doesn't understand it, he will asking question "why" when new Hitler will arise,

when we cure disease as doctors, we also seek prevention of disesase spread in future, thinking like in A-Stan "kill extremists" shown clearly that on one killed extremist you have 2 new extremists, US troops killed hundred of thousands men in A-Stan and now Talibs are stronger than before cause now half of population support Taliban,

the same lack of knowledge i see in Wipman posts "kill nazis", by military killing nazis, you will get only more nazis, cause they will say "look abroad people kill our people", if anyone want to "kill" nazis, let he give them money, they will suddenly change their point of view and buy new clothes and be happy to visit as tourists other countries and they will eat there foreign food and later buy this food in their country in emigrant's restaurant, and than full-stomach people go happily smiling to each other cause they have no worries about future, jobs, competition etc. since i earn more i go to foreign restaurants and eat Arab or Asian food, if i were unemployed i would see those people as danger to me - it is all natural , those right wing guys from Ukraine about Wipman wrote would also be nice cool guys if they had money to go to eat in foreign restaurants , if they live in poverty and now you put them to bigger poverty (Russia will rise prices, move back money , China moves back money for agricultural products) you will have only war, hate, bloodbath, nothing more, and instead of few percent "nazis" you gonna have 50% "nazis" and war in Europe, cause than next nations who live in poverty like my nation will stand against foreign corporations,

solution for peace is lack of reasons to hate due to economical/corruption problems,

rich people have much things to loose during war, poor people do not have anything to loose,

Edited March 2, 2014 by vilas

[metalcraze 290]

"Empty stomach" was a problem for the past 23 years.

But you didn't see anything like this Maidan before.

Because Yanukovich and his crime family went on to rob the country to the max (whereas previous corrupt presidents knew fully well that you have to keep people survivable - the difference between 3 former USSR communist party members and a double convict right there) and then started to violently choke protests.

Beating up people with empty stomachs is a very bad idea as thousands of years of documented history tells us. It's too bad Yanukovich was too illiterate to learn its lessons.

[vilas 473]

Beating up people with empty stomachs is a very bad idea as thousands of years of documented history tells us. It's too bad Yanukovich was too illiterate to learn its lessons.

exactly, exactly, cause some very extremly rich people start to think "i am the god, they must obey me", it was thinking of Kings, Yanuk and his Procurator were posing to Ancient Rome

Edited March 2, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

It seems as if there are plans for a referundum where the people of the Krim will vote if they want to become an independent country. This might be a way out of the crysis without a war.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It seems as if there are plans for a referundum where the people of the Krim will vote if they want to become an independent country. This might be a way out of the crysis without a war.

A referendum with armed troops and militias in the street would hardly have any value...

BTW latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents said 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Beagle 684]

exactly, exactly, cause some very extremly rich people start to think "i am the god, they must obey me", it was thinking of Kings, Yanuk and his Procurator were posing to Ancient Rome

Ancient rome was a republic. The decay of rome started with it becoming an empire. First it became militaristic then totally corupt and bloated and then it fell. Reminds us of current events?

[comm_yuri 10]

Referendum under such catastrophic and non justified demands ? again, what is the justification of Kremlin's actions ? was there any violence against Russians to somehow take the argument "we protect our citizens" seriously ? there hasn't even been a clear conclusion if the majority of Russians themselves in Crimea want seperation or not, yet Russians don't hesitate to send thousands of troops to Sevastopol answering to the demands of some armed groups violently taking over government buildings .... also you've read what I've posted. Russians are shooting in their own knee with this behaviour. You will all see. It will backfire.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73313000/jpg/_73313131_perevalnoe.jpg

Ukrainian troops who locked themselves in after Russian troops surrounded the base, at the stand-off at the Crimean military base of Perevalnoe.

Ukrainian troops should stand tall and stand their ground.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[vilas 473]

BTW latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents said 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia.

if yes, than such referendum lost by pro-Russians would/should also fix a little, but than Russians will say "voting was falsified" etc. and when Russian would organize referendum, than Ukrainians would say "referendum was falsified" , cause noone trust noone out there

Ukrainian troops should stand tall and keep standing.

there is already call to reservists

Ancient rome was a republic. The decay of rome started with it becoming an empire. First it became militaristic then totally corupt and bloated and then it fell. Reminds us of current events?

yes, reminds, like with big stars, first they are musicians, than money, more money, than drugs, aids and die from drugs

[krzychuzokecia 700]

The scenario is identical like that was in 17 of October 1939 when Soviets entered Poland. When country was in disarray caused by the German attack, the Soviets decided "to enter" the eastern lands of Poland in order "to protect" Russian people from harm. Despite having a defensive pack the West did nothing, French only limited to dropping propaganda leaflets along French-German border.

My thoughts exactly.

The key to this situation lies in geopolitics (and history as a tool to understand it). Russia and Germany are "the best enemies" - when they're close to themselves, they start the war and pursue their targets. But when they have "something in the middle" (be it Poland in 1939, or Ukraine today), they'll team up against "that third". Truth is that EU (or Germany actually) don't want Ukraine in their "turf" - for them it's still "west of USSR". That's why EU actually slapped Ukrainians in their efforts to join (money it's not a problem here: whole EU payed for small number of falling banks, and second: money can be given in various forms, including opening the market - this is far more "frightening" than one-time donation, no matter how big it can be).

French were the traditional opponent of the Germany (and thus potential ally for Central European countries), but since the Napoleon IIIrd, they've become "minor empire" - powerful country, but one that can't overcome German will.

Brits, on the other hand, are powerful enough, but they also look to reinstate Russo-German conflict - it may weaken both participants, and as an effect, strengthen the UK (this is also why they're not keen on the whole EU idea - why team up with country you still see as an enemy?).

As for US... Well, let me just describe what I read on political boards in the net. American left is worried, because Russian intervention may bring problems of human rights nature, but then they think that Russian "socialism" will put an end to every "empty stomach" in Ukraine (geez, if that'd be true, we'd see crowds trying to get Russian visa at an embassy!).

US right is not better: Russia is going stronger (and that's a problem), but hey! It's great chance to bring back the good 'ole times of Cold War and American supremation! Not to mention that Barry will be fired! (Literally)

That's what the citizens of "international policeman" think, and I bet that Obama's administration is not different: he's mad about the whole issue, but also is frightened of potential escalation.

So while the West is internally divided, "the Russian Bear" is rolling and nothing can stop him. Our only answer would be like in Krycek's post:

At this stage even if that psycho Putin decides to invade more than Crimea,Nato will say "hey don't do that,ok you did it,no don't cross that line,oh you did it again,that's it cross this and you're in trouble,damn..." and so on.

[Rydygier 1302]

Yep. Probable scenario. It is also similar to the 30's when Hitler was taking neighbour countries piece after piece, and West preferred to let him and pretend all is OK than to risk another war. Seems, that Putin, also after Georgia, can do whatever he wants without consequnces. And he wants at least Crimea badly because of its strategical value for Russia. Some difference could be made, if Ukraine will present an effective and long-lasting resistance. But what exactly Ukrainian army has (and how much can rely on it), and what has Russia, that could use there? BTW what assests, especially aerial and naval, has NATO currently on the Black Sea? Any movements there was spotted lately?

http://www.debka.com/article/23720/Russians-strike-Ukraine-army-post-in-Crimea-Kiev-fears-Ukraine-army-putsch-US-warships-on-standby

Edited March 2, 2014 by Rydygier

[Guest]

Crimea feels like Chernarus. And the airfield taken by the Russians like in the last mission in the ARMA 2 campaign. Am i the only one who thinks this resembles todays scenario?

[Lenyoga 326]

Crimea feels like Chernarus. And the airfield taken by the Russians like in the last mission in the ARMA 2 campaign. Am i the only one who thinks this resembles todays scenario?

I thought the same thing...

[spooky lynx 73]

not exactly:

- questions is - why budget is empty, who robbed money ? oligarchs, corrupted policians, how to get back money from thief Yanukovitch when Putin protects him ?

- how to fill budget ? take back what was stolen - now those money are in international banks, oligarchs, Yanukovitch administration families,

There is one problem: Maidan is headed and sponsored by the same corrupted politicians and oligarchs like those of Yanuk's crew. Firtash, Kolomoisky, Ahmetov, Avakov (new MVD head with capital of $400 mil., two years ago was charged but escaped persecution due to Rada deputy immunity) - they are not better than Yanuk's son or their friends. They robbed Ukraine the same way as previous officials. And those of Batkivshina party are not better than PoR ones. So after all this unrests and deaths one corrupts and oligarchs were ousted by another ones. Do you think Kolomoisky or Firtash will give back all the stolen?

so they do not discuss meaningless things,

if for example i were robbed by mr. Abc, than you tell me "your pocket is empty, do not seek revenge, find job and earn money? " totally ridiculous, cause those money exist, they are in pocket of mr. Abc, just i must force this to take those yet-not-spent money to my pocket again,

the same with Ukraine, their money do exist, they were simply stolen by ex governing elite, not Ukraine should get back money from Yanukovitch and his administration accounts on foreign banks and Putin keeping Yanukovitch doesn't help at all , Russia now makes a mess, why ? Yanukovitch bought residence near Moscow for 52 milions of dollars, guess whose money these dollars were ? his salary is 3 000 dollars per month legally, so ... those were stolen money , about which you say - they have empty budget,

You know, Yanuk and PoR were elected with the help of... guess what? Ukrainians tired of orange government that ruined economy and was full of corruption. Yes, Yanuk's PR was built on the promises to fight with corruption of orange government. Now those who lost election to Yanuk seized back the power. To be honest they are two heads of one hydra.

tresures are not hidden under Lenin monuments, treasures are hidden in many banks , their whole budget stolen in recent years, i hope not in Russian banks or am i wrong and they are in Russian banks ?

money that Yanukovitch family and cooperators have, probably would help to fix budget hole in some percents, to help victim is also to return back stolen goods

Kolomoisky's "Privat" bank holds not less money than those affiliated with Yanuk. Guess, will it be overlooked for the money that were stolen? I bet those who will try it will be found with the hole in the head on the next day.

Again, I don't defend Yanuk's regime, moreover it was not and is not pro-Russian. But I find those who ousted it are much worse in every way. The same political whores that already were in Rada and government and oligarchs but now with addition of nazis. Is it better?

[vilas 473]

Ukrainian military base in Sevastopol was disarmed by Russians and there were shooting scenes in Semerfpol

___________________

Yep. Probable scenario. It is also similar to the 30's when Hitler was taking neighbour countries piece after piece, and West preferred to let him and pretend all is OK than to risk another war. Seems, that Putin, also after Georgia, can do whatever he wants without consequnces. And he wants at least Crimea badly because of its strategical value for Russia. Some difference could be made, if Ukraine will present an effective and long-lasting resistance. But what exactly Ukrainian army has, and what has Russia, that could use there? BTW what assests, especially aerial and naval, has NATO currently on the Black Sea? Any movements there was spotted lately?

but as you see some guys from west voices - let Putin will kill them all cause they are "nazis", cause every not-US patriot, not-Isreali, not-German, not-French, not-British, not-Federal Reserve Bank patriot and not-LGTB activist is "nazi" or "bigot",

Putin see it and Putin knows that he can raise his empire (oops , i forget about Georgian invasion, really, i forget last weeks) cause NWO divided world at Bilderberg meetings "those will be slaves for USA companies, those will be slaves for British companies, those will be slaves for German banks" and so on, so Putin takes what was yet not divided or what was given to him , of course noone asks and cares about "local habitants" , they "should work for penny and clear our streets in silence",

you see it in our TV as well, people walking with national flag during independence day "fascists", and "if there is no job, why don't you emigrate or lower your financial expectations till we tax you in 100%" and money from our taxes go to western banks, which transfer money to mother-banks in Germany, USA, France, UK, or like last week with copper mines, sold for cheap percent of income to Canadian mining corporation, they made from us colony, they call it "now you have freedom opposite to pre 1989" and expect us to be happy, here and in Ukraine, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria etc. that from one "slavery" we get to other "slavery" kind,

first our profits were transferred to USSR , now our profits are transferred to West banking system or corporations, and those who do not agree on it are called "fascists" by one or other side (making confusion with real nazists which do exist and which are very happy with such situation cause they gain more and they can do some mess and grow in power from being 0.1% votes to dozen in such circumstances),

i haven't emigrated to London to wash streets unlike 3 of my neighbors from my block of flats, because i believe that i graduated university not to was streets on emigration,

very good way chose countries like Switzerland, they are independent and deal with both sides, not forced to deal with one side of market, every Swiss men has rifle in his house and noone dare to invade Switzerland like noone would invade USA, if we were independent, we would earn a lot of money on our geographical position cause all products transported from West to Russia go through both Poland and Ukraine , independence is most important to collect all profits yourself without dividing them ,

government of Ukraine (previous, pre-Maidan) put Ukraine to bankruptcy (we all seen those palaces), Ukraine is now bankrupt with huuuuge debt, and bad consequence of this conflict is that in "west to Ukraine" (EU) we will pay for those debts which Yanukovitch made, problem is that money stolen from Ukrainian people, Yanukovitch family will spend buying another palaces near Moscow ,

so far on Ukrainian case Poland lost a lot of money on pork industry, now we as closest neighbor also will loose a lot, because of lack of industry we also can have serioooooous financial problems in Poland and Maidan in Warsaw too, cause poor people will not agree to be more poor,

solving Ukrainian case without losses is in our deepest interest, even in interest of rest of EU, cause when we will be living in worse poverty, we will drag down EU countries too, flood of emigrants will hit more London, Berlin, Madrid, Oslo (because now some west businessman sit and laugh "hahahaha, let Poland conflict with Russia about Ukraine, than we can enter those market places which Poles had" "hahahaha, Ukraine will not sell pork and potatos, i will sell our pork and our potatoes") - it is all about money, about profits and west must understand that if we will go down, we will do anything to drag them down too ;)

only who will win will be Russia and Russian economy (thats why Putin has support in Russia, he build economy of Russia , he makes Russia strong, from their point of view, he is hero for them and it is natural cause their salaries arose)

our incomes may fall down and this is something which we will feel very much (and which will cause our frustration)

i think that situation will be as following (guessing):

- Russia takes Crymea and not make single step forward, but making refferendum, when people will see bigger salaries in Russian company, people will vote for union with Russia,

- Ukrainine will be in deep financial troubles due to Russia upgrading prices on gas and not buying products , and Yanukovitch stealing,

- Poland will get in financial troubles due to Russia not buying our products,

- in such financial crisis Poland will invest much more in our army, so more money will be spend on army and because of this our social level will go down, cause few tanks more = 1 hospital less, money needed,

- Germany , France, Spain will take our agricultural export space and they will earn money, selling to Russia,

- stupid real Ukrainian nazis will come stronger due to large poverty and economical problems in Ukraine (not "nazis" but real nazis) will say that Polish-Ukrainian border need revision and instead of thankfullness Poland will get "one enemy more",

- new Ukrainian government will be dealing with enormous financial troubles , nazi troubles and only one who will borrow them money will be Polish government, which of course by such act will put Polish nation in deeper crisis,

- US will be happy cause they will offer M113 and M60 Pattons or other phased out vehicles, maybe some hundreds of HMMVW to Ukraine or Germany gonna sell for 1 Euro some Leopard 2A4, and than Ukraine will take them for 1 Euro, which will in effect end production of T84 "cause we have no money for them" and increase poverty in Ukraine,

- in Poland more extremists will be born,

- more Poles gonna emigrate to London because their parents who export agricultural stuff to Russia do not have customers, and our government will welcome a lot of Ukrainian immigrants to work instead of us,

this Ukrainian-Russian conflict as result will only hurt and hit Poland and Ukraine, rest may earn on it a lot (Russia buys a lot of pork for example and other agriculture products abroad, they have to eat, everyone would be happy to sell) but due to political reasons, Putin will not buy from new government of Ukraine and most probably not from Poland, cause so far we helped Ukrainians a lot (wounded on Maidan now are treated in our hospitals)

usual Polish public in internet (i do not know, maybe reading comments is biased cause a lot of trolls are active) sounds like "we should not mess, we should stay away because of loss in economy" "i will not give my head for Banderas" "let this government not spoil more than it is already spoiled" cause at the moment according to stats ca. 70% Poles are against government

when i look at voting results "do you support our government actions in Ukrainian case" 83% of Poles are against ! so huge majority of people believe (according to those internet voting stats) that we should stay away and keep on our economy only, cause we will pay big bill for Ukraine and only we will pay, German farmer will sell his pigs, Polish farmer won't < this is what internet says here , west knows about it, west will sell more cars, Ukraine won't sell their version of Daewoo which they produce,

for loosing our machines industry and fabric industry in 90s our policians should be charged as traitors, they made a lot of our economy to rely on farm industry, especially farm industry exporting to Russia, i believe many Poles agree that those who ruled us and ruined our economy are traitors the same caliber like Yanukovitch, in case of any conflict (political, economical) with Russia we cannot earn money, i know some families who have money only because their son in London sends money to parents,

100% Polish politicians and elite agree "we must help Ukraine" 80% of Polish society agree "we must stay away" and i do not know what to think

Edited March 2, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Ukraine were put into bankrupcy slowly since rule of Kravchuk, its first president. None of Ukraine's rulers no matter of their political party hadn't done anything for their country to become well developed. After USSR collapse Ukraine had one of the best starting conditions - huge modern industry, agriculture, lots of modern arms left by Soviet army, good climate. All that was done then was destruction, stealing, selling abroad. And then blaming moskali.

[Rydygier 1302]

but as you see some guys from west voices - let Putin will kill them all cause they are "nazis", cause every not-US patriot, not-Isreali, not-German, not-French, not-British, not-Federal Reserve Bank patriot and not-LGTB activist is "nazi" or "bigot",

Yeah. It is also about real will behind rhetoric. If you really want to do something, you'll find convenient excuse - like Putin do. If you don't want do something - you'll find excuse too, like West probably will. In this case it may be exactly same excuse for both - exactly what you mentioned. Also, isn't Crimea's belonging to Ukraine questionable by law? If you want - you for sure make it questionable. Etc.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The chief of Ukrainian navy is reported by the Russians as having defected.

[spooky lynx 73]

The chief of Ukrainian navy is reported by the Russians as having defected.

That's true:

[sudayev 27]

While russian aggressor is unpredictable and threatening and we still don't have effective missile defense system, only because of THEM! They have much more to say in our country than our ruling body - examples Missile Shield, statues of communist criminals that have Polish blood on their hands. They want other countries defenseless so one day, that can come and take what they want. Just like it's happening now. If our government will continue to act so soft - we will be caught with pants down. This is sad actually.

[metalcraze 290]

There is one problem: Maidan is headed and sponsored by the same corrupted politicians and oligarchs like those of Yanuk's crew. Firtash, Kolomoisky, Ahmetov, Avakov (new MVD head with capital of $400 mil., two years ago was charged but escaped persecution due to Rada deputy immunity) - they are not better than Yanuk's son or their friends. They robbed Ukraine the same way as previous officials. And those of Batkivshina party are not better than PoR ones. So after all this unrests and deaths one corrupts and oligarchs were ousted by another ones. Do you think Kolomoisky or Firtash will give back all the stolen?

You are wrong. Maidan is not headed by anyone (see Jan 19th - opposition "leaders" were the first to run away with their pants filled) and is sponsored mostly by Kyiv citizens. There are many various organizations acting independent of each other which is the reason for Maidan not achieving anything for so long. In fact opposition has their own area at Maidan to which resources are delivered which they share with no one and also common folk was never allowed in there. In fact there were quite a few fights between the people and opposition lapdogs over the months for the stage and buildings with varied results. It's important to know that people at Maidan are not blind and are fully aware of how corrupt and criminal the opposition is. The reason why they were not pushed from Maidan was "an enemy of our enemy is our friend". Plus having at least some political power they were useful to us, the people, in getting to places we couldn't.

Of course right now the situation is way more complex. They are in power as the only other force in Parliament except for Yanuk's and of course we have the power to dethrone them but the situation in Crimea makes any internal bickering quite possibly a fatal mistake.

They can use this to cement their positions and as much as people on Maidan don't like this (and trust me - many many don't) - there's little we can do with a much more dangerous enemy one foot through our door - Russia.

Edited March 2, 2014 by metalcraze

[spooky lynx 73]

You are wrong. Maidan is not headed by anyone (see Jan 19th - opposition "leaders" were the first to run away with their pants filled) and is sponsored mostly by Kyiv citizens. In fact opposition has their own area at Maidan to which resources are delivered which they share with no one and also common folk was never allowed in there. In fact there were quite a few fights between the people and opposition lapdogs over the months for the stage and buildings with varied results. It's important to know that people at Maidan are not blind and are fully aware of how corrupt and criminal the opposition is. The reason why they were not pushed from Maidan was "an enemy of our enemy is our friend". Plus having at least some political power they were useful to us, the people, in getting to places we couldn't.

Of course right now the situation is way more complex. They are in power as the only other force in Parliament except for Yanuk's and of course we have the power to dethrone them but the situation in Crimea makes any internal bickering quite possibly a fatal mistake.

They can use this to cement their positions and as much as people on Maidan don't like this (and trust me - many many don't) - there's little we can do with a much more dangerous enemy at our door - Russia.

Are you sure that such protest is sponsored by average Kyiv citizens?:D All those food, aids, tents, weapons, fuel, transport, storming of local buildings, leak of databases with names of anti-maidan officials and MVD servicemen - who gave the money for all this? Believe me, average citizens can not organize such uprising by themselves, somebody more competent does it.