Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, as it's quite obvious that a simple referendum (without threat) would have allowed Crimea to be even more autonomous from Kiev governement (and why not join Russia back), this military gesticulation is doing nothing but harm to Putin's interest IMHO.

What makes you think that Crimea is Putin's final goal?

They are "unlawful combatants" and use of them violates Third Geneva Convention.

It's the same that happened in Georgia, Ukraine gov knows it. They are not gonna make the same mistake,

[vilas 473]

unidentified masked personnel which tells to legal army on it's base to surround - can be terrorist, so fire should be opened to them cause unidentified masked personnel cannot surround base of legal army,

or if they are not terrorists, than should show documents, if they are Russian Army personnel not on place where they can step - it is breaking international law,

[ProfTournesol 956]

What makes you think that Crimea is Putin's final goal?

Yep, good point.

[vilas 473]

That's what happened in Georgia, later Putin claimed that those unidentified soldiers were Russian, so he send the 'peacekeeping force'.

with Georgia theoretically Georgia attacked Osetia, need to research more, cause Georgian situation might be different (i do not say IS, i say might and need to study more),

[ProfTournesol 956]

The Polish Foreign Minister, Radoslaw Sikorski, tells the BBC: "My biggest fear is that the Russian authorities believe their own propaganda and make fatal mistakes that open the gates of hell"

So true...

[mistyronin 1181]

with Georgia theoretically Georgia attacked Osetia, need to research more, cause Georgian situation might be different (i do not say IS, i say might and need to study more),

In Georgia, Georgian Army attacked unidentified men (so called ossetian militia / self-defence ), so Putin 'was forced' to send a 'peacekeeping force', to stop the Georgian Army. Allowing the Ossetian gov to get the 'independence' ( under Russia umbrella, as they have Russian passports ).

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[scrim 1]

It is not viable to for Putin to claim Russian troops were attacked after he's really sent them in under cover. The Russians have acknowledged that they are in full control of the Crimea with their troops at this point, so provoking Ukrainian soldiers into attacking them there can't be used to claim an attack on peace keepers, and in the rest of Ukraine, there are no contested regions into which Russian troops could be sent and later claimed to have been peace keepers.

[vilas 473]

What makes you think that Crimea is Putin's final goal?

Puttin cannot stand that such big country like Ukraine doesn't obey him, also he afraid that "rich of the world" are taking hand for something more than EU (pro-EU tend in Ukr)

Ukr was/is between hammer and anvil, first they have strong economical relations with Russia, try to get cheap credits and gas from Russia and the same way try to get more from West, so Putin see it as not loyalty and try to punish for it , to show whole world that if USA can invade Iraq as "weapons of mass destruction" than he can do the same "cause Nazis are danger to Russian minority", in fact maybe afraid that rest of pro-Russians countries may have riots and Maidan (those Caucasian countries)

also Russia builds new block with China and try to show to USA that they are more important now ? also to scare EU ? maybe Russian tourists who now often visit West see other lifestyle and there is danger that they will want to change Russian style of governing, so it is better if now Russians will /will be blocking/blocked from world like in Cold War, cause when Russians speak with us too much, they consider that Russian system is not 100% perfect (mind control) and in "cold war 2" they will not contact and believe only their media ? going too far with "conspiracy" ? i do not know, i suspect maybe fixing internal issues too (i do not know how much opposition he has)

or maybe he's gone a little mad and really his ego boosted too high ?

It is not viable to for Putin to claim Russian troops were attacked after he's really sent them in under cover. The Russians have acknowledged that they are in full control of the Crimea with their troops at this point, so provoking Ukrainian soldiers into attacking them there can't be used to claim an attack on peace keepers, and in the rest of Ukraine, there are no contested regions into which Russian troops could be sent and later claimed to have been peace keepers.

arent peace keepers sent by UN with blue helmets and white vehicles?

[sudayev 27]

Night Wolves - biker gang approved by Putin is ready to fight. Titushky on wheels.

http://world.time.com/2014/02/28/crimea-russia-putin-night-wolves/

[comm_yuri 10]

With pleasure! These regions bring mostly troubles. I would be happy if they become independent state and gangs from which, raiding our border regions (like in 1996-1999) would be exterminated with all weapons possible as foreign invaders. But after 4-5 years of such independence male population of newly born Imarat would decrease much... Both while being killed by border guards or in clan vs clan wars (all this we have seen during de-facto independence of Chechnya after Hasavyurt treaty until second war). So okay, we will grant independence, but any gang coming from that country will be treated as invaders, okay?

I'm totaly OK with that. If they are stupid, it's their problem.

[mistyronin 1181]

Puttin cannot stand that such big country like Ukraine doesn't obey him, also he afraid that "rich of the world" are taking hand for something more than EU (pro-EU tend in Ukr)

I don't know what Putin's agenda is, but IMO, if he has take all these steps is because he thinks that he can get something really good.

I don't believe he's stupid or crazy, maybe I'm wrong, but until now he has been quite clever in all what he did.

[vilas 473]

maybe Russians found that there is uknown source of oil under Ukraine/Crimea that Ukraine doesn't know or other unknow super resources ? and in 10 years it will be "discovered"? joking

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't know what Putin's agenda is, but IMO, if he has take all these steps is because he thinks that he can get something really good.

I don't believe he's stupid or crazy, maybe I'm wrong, but until now he has been quite clever in all what he did.

Dunno. He's mimicking what he did in Georgia, but with much less subtlety.

[vilas 473]

he knows that such conflict will make our economy suffer in EU, it can kill economically few countries, and citizens of those countries gonna make riots than and than Russia will be rich ?

[comm_yuri 10]

with Georgia theoretically Georgia attacked Osetia, need to research more, cause Georgian situation might be different (i do not say IS, i say might and need to study more),

Yes, Georgia started military operations, clean up operations against Kokoiti ( Ossetian leader ) and his armed formations when provocations reached their height. Unfortunatly our military also got entangled in fights with the Russian troops stationed in Tskhinvali acting as peacekeepers. They say we shot first, we say they shot first and we shot back. When they got casualties it gave Putin what he wanted, absolute green light from Duma and support from the population to "counterattack" and crush Saakashvilis plan to quickly seize the region what would have ( in his brilliant mind ) repaired his heavily damaged reputation and image for the population ( there was allready massive 100.000 scale demonstration against him in 2007 which ended with violent crackdown and media centers closed down and put under state control ), so he needed something to steer people's attention away from other problems like criminal regime, corruption, poverty, social disorder etc, he decided to take option war and in the end the ordinary people have to suffer for stupid politicians and loose their sons and family members in a senseless fight. But it didn't end with that humiliation and decleration of independence of the two regions, by Russia. The Russians are continiously constructing barbed wires and fences deeper and deeper into uncontested areas of Georgia. Since the new goverment tries to sort it out diplomaticaly and doesn't even deploy any military outposts, the Russians impudently keep building "border" walls around the regions, but every month, deeper into Georgia. That's how they try to slowly occupy, isolate and occipy. This is however not to be compared with Ukraine. Abkhazia War would be a better comparison in this case.

Also side note is that my uncle was fighting there in a special unit in most scenes where there was engagement between Georgian/Ossetian, Georgian/Russian troops later and when they were called back he told us via phone when we were concerned if he's still alive, that he couldn't talk about it, but that they were betrayed. He didn't say and doesn't say till today, who betrayed them. But one thing is certain, our forces marched into that region expecting swiftly securing it without much fight and response.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[akm74 1]

Well, as it's quite obvious that a simple referendum (without threat) would have allowed Crimea to be even more autonomous from Kiev governement (and why not join Russia back), this military gesticulation is doing nothing but harm to Putin's interest IMHO.

1000% agree

In Georgia, Georgian Army attacked unidentified men (so called ossetian militia / self-defence ), so Putin 'was forced' to send a 'peacekeeping force', to stop the Georgian Army. Allowing the Ossetian gov to get the 'independence' ( under Russia umbrella, as they have Russian passports ).

this is not correct. They move whole forces including tanks (at night) in order to take control over contested territory. They shell peacekeeper barracks first. It just happen they stuck in first city they roll-in before Russian hit back next day. Ironically it was happen daring previous Olympic, where Putin and Medvedev was siting right next to George Bush. It was most stupid move (even by saakashvili standards)

[Spider 1]

What makes you think that Crimea is Putin's final goal?

What matters is if he plans on taking only Crimea right now. Then again, I'm just hoping he'll know to stop before things get out of control. Plus I don't think anyone but Putin knows what his "final" goal really is.

[mistyronin 1181]

this is not correct. They move whole forces including tanks (at night) in order to take control over contested territory. They shell peacekeeper barracks first. It just happen they stuck in first city they roll-in before Russian hit back next day. Ironically it was happen daring previous Olympic, where Putin and Medvedev was siting right next to George Bush. It was most stupid move (even by saakashvili standards)

Ok, so according to your version Georgia invaded South Ossetia ( which was part of Georgia ), and they shelled Russian peacekeepers first, but then they got stucked in the first city, that's why they couldn't take all Ossetia; all that thinking that Russia will allow everything happily.

Do you really believe that? :rolleyes:

Any possibility that the incident was a feint so Russia could take part in the conflict?

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

I don't, but this guy did...

[comm_yuri 10]

Ok, so according to your version Georgia invaded South Ossetia ( which was part of Georgia ), and they shelled Russian peacekeepers first, but then they got stucked in the first city, that's why they couldn't take all Ossetia; all that thinking that Russia will allow everything happily.

Do you really believe that? :rolleyes:

Any possibility that the incident was a feint so Russia could take part in the conflict?

read my post

I don't, but this guy did...

hey AKM, thanks for reminding me of the most miserable leader in our history, but better talk when you people get rid of your primitive imperialistic mentality. Old glory and USSR won't ever return.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[mistyronin 1181]

read my post

I had already done. I was just being ironic.

Just that if someone can believe that Georgian soldiers attacked Russian peacekeeping soldiers first, without expecting any Russian reaction.

Well, could tomorrow perfectly believe that Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea could attack cool peaceful Russian soldiers ( probably unarmed ) that were surrounding them...

Maybe this next night, some Ukrainian soldiers will kill 3-4 Russian soldiers... which would lead to the Russian next movement. Just a random possibility...

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[akm74 1]

Any possibility that the incident was a feint so Russia could take part in the conflict?

with modern politics we can't rule out any scenarios...

hey AKM, thanks for reminding me of the most miserable leader in our history, but better talk when you people get rid of your primitive imperialistic mentality. Old glory and USSR won't ever return.

i was not aware saakashvili was leader of Germany. Did i miss something ???

Edited March 3, 2014 by AKM74

[ProfTournesol 956]

According to the BBC : "Ukraine's ousted President Viktor Yanukovych has written to Russian President Vladimir Putin asking him to use military force in Ukraine, says Russia's envoy to the UN, Vitaly Churkin." :icon_ohmygod: That's the exact contrary of what he said in the press conf'.

[comm_yuri 10]

with modern politics we can't rule out any scenarios...

i was not aware saakashvili was leader of Germany. Did i miss something ???

I'm livin and studyin there but actualy plan to go into politics, get into Russia with false identity and take over the goverment, like it's our tradition :P because honestly, someone has to replace your dictator with an effective one allready. Putin is too slow.

[vilas 473]

if Yanuk dare to ask other country use force against his citizens that it is called traitory and in war condition is punished by death,

another thing by the way (which may surprise some people) my government few weeks ago issued regulation that... they can ask foreign police in case if our nation stand against, also traitory