Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[yupi 15]

I know this was asked a few times, but really:

 

What is the downside and the problem of the old system+ the visual bar(which should be included as irl you would easily understand how fatigues you are)? Is there any?

[Greenfist 1863]

With a little bit of code wrangling it's actually possible to emulate some of the previous fatigue system's functionality (except the animation speed changes unfortunately).

Apparently, there will be a setAnimSpeedCoef command.

[tpw 2315]

Apparently, there will be a setAnimSpeedCoef command.

Well that is great news!

[ImperialAlex 72]

The new system suffers from exactly the same problem as the old one: It can't be easily modded! Why can't we simply use config or script commands to decide the parameters of the system for ourselves? Virtually all other major mechanics (sway, recoil, damage, etc) can be modded and changed. Stamina/Fatigue is simply lacking the options to adjust it to the desired experience. Please allow us to define our own parameters for either movement modes or, maybe a bit overkill, for individual Animations.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I know this was asked a few times, but really:

 

What is the downside and the problem of the old system+ the visual bar(which should be included as irl you would easily understand how fatigues you are)? Is there any?

AI was the only one but I haven't seen BIS mentionin that. AI likes to keep their gun up and do all kinds of small movement so they can get tired more quick than the player. That's why I thought we will get couple compromises in the old system and also some tweaks and fixes here and there, but nope.

[Varanon 892]

If most of the A3 community is Casual Zombies/Survival and Cops&Robbers users, shouldn't BIS incorporate their wishes into development instead of ignoring the vast majority of users?

 

That depends on the game BI intents to make. If they are still focused on the authentic military game, then they should make it an authentic military game. Otherwise, market Arma as an RPG/Life game, and throw all pretence of military authenticity over board.

 

As it stands now, the core customers, those that have been with the franchise sine OFP, are the ones who have to mod the game to make it authentic again, while the casual players get their wishes cared for. And THAT is wrong, it should be the other way around. Especially since BI claims the new system will be so moddable.

 

Again, in the early days, we used to say "simulation" and "realism", then it became a bad word and we needed to say "authentic", and now even that is out of the door ?

[Varanon 892]

Is transparent and comprehensible for players

The transparency issue is something that comes up ever so often, but to be honest, I don't get what the problem was with the old system. You run, you get tired. You run crouched, you get more tired. You have more weight on your back, you get even more tired.

 

Now, we have some bar graph in the top right corner. When I first tried it (before the oprep), I looked at it and immediately though "I don't get it, why is the bar not full ?", or "Why is the bar getting consumed from the other side ?". It took a hint by pettka ("It's not fatigue, it's stamina") to comprehend.

 

I honestly still don't get the transparency issue, and I still don't know what feedback was used to deduct that the *majority* of players had trouble with the old system. There is little to no feedback to that end on the forum or in the issue tracker, so it can only have come from individuals, and then I have to ask why the old system was deemed not transparent enough for the majority of players.

 

Because as I see it, the majority of players was OK with the old system. Or did you get one million emails or PMs asking you to change it ? I have my severe doubts.

[froggyluv 2136]

 Surely it must have been this monstrous thread: https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/184787-this-stamina-system-makes-ai-very-bloody-useless/

 

 @Varanon: Substitute "Transparency" with "Accessibility" and it all makes sense.

[bars91 956]

Pretty much the *best bang for the buck* at the moment seems to be this:

 

-have the new system on by default and old fatigue as an "advanced option" (what has this world come to  :huh: ) similar to heli flight model

 

PS: filthy casuals ruining stuff yet again (hint, Silent Hunter 5, hint)  :ph34r:

[McGregor_CiA 19]

The transparency issue is something that comes up ever so often, but to be honest, I don't get what the problem was with the old system. You run, you get tired. You run crouched, you get more tired. You have more weight on your back, you get even more tired.

 

Now, we have some bar graph in the top right corner. When I first tried it (before the oprep), I looked at it and immediately though "I don't get it, why is the bar not full ?", or "Why is the bar getting consumed from the other side ?". It took a hint by pettka ("It's not fatigue, it's stamina") to comprehend.

 

I honestly still don't get the transparency issue, and I still don't know what feedback was used to deduct that the *majority* of players had trouble with the old system. There is little to no feedback to that end on the forum or in the issue tracker, so it can only have come from individuals, and then I have to ask why the old system was deemed not transparent enough for the majority of players.

 

Because as I see it, the majority of players was OK with the old system. Or did you get one million emails or PMs asking you to change it ? I have my severe doubts.

 

I completely agree with Varanon. And as a little example; I brought my friend in to Arma and he was coming from playing on consoles his whole gaming life, never owning a PC or playing with M+KB. He was with the addition of ShacTac's stamina bar able grasp and fully understand the fatigue system within minutes of first playing. He has to this day never had a problem with lagging behind due to running in tactical pace etc. In all honesty you'd have to be pretty dumb not to understand it

[bier aig tartar 11]

Excuse my bad english!

 

 

A question ? Why you build the ArmA 3 becoming a run-of-the-mill game? It started with Dayz and becomes a non-military simulation game more and more? You should adjust the fatigue and not take it out, or do you want a Call of Duty, BTF 4 game make it?

 

 

In my opinion, this game is more and more dirty.

[Roach_ 52]

I have to say that for the AI, fatigue was pretty bad, but when it came to the player it made sense even if it was hard to get used to it. It gave much more depth to the game and gameplay, even if your AI teammates would end up walking and 1km behind you.

 

Stamina as it is right now is just as if there was no fatigue whatsoever anyway. I still want to believe they'll make it work somehow, though. For me the perfect combo would be the visual bar + the AI being able to keep up. And probably the fact that you wouldn't walk if you're retreating from enemy artillery just because you're tired.

 

With that being said, fatigue was much more immersive and I prefer it, but keep in mind stamina is as of right now in v0.01, so let's just see what happens when the nexus update ends.

[en3x 209]

This is the first time when I experience Bohemia interactive to fall back from complex system to simpler one after myself following development process

from first Alpha stages of the game.

 

8 pages of passionate posts shows people really care about it.

 

If votes don't account for something

 

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=19727

 

Or feedback over here, then I don't know what could.

 

I feel as this complex systems (AFM, stance adjusts, ballistics, sling loading,

and after all fatigue) that lean on realism is what arma identity really is.

When you take away from it you are losing originality and coming closer and closer

to standard cookie cutter FPS shooters.

[djotacon 190]

I finish read completely the latest OPREP about fatigue/stamine and I believe that is the right way to do the things.

 

First the actual system is dark, strange, and to me is only a way to reduce the gameplay to a "breath simulator".

 

The fatigue in the human beings is based in thresholds, if you dont surpass the limit you can joggle or run without suffer severe penalties.

 

Right now playing the game is a fight between your weight and your aim rather than focus in the real combat.

 

To me is very clear from the begining that this is no the way to enjoy nothing.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

 

Because as I see it, the majority of players was OK with the old system. Or did you get one million emails or PMs asking you to change it ? I have my severe doubts.

 

Good game designers put less weight in verbal feedback than they do in observed feedback.

 

Here's the difference:

 

100 people tell them via PMs that Fatigue system is great!

 

Meanwhile

 

100 of the more popular scenarios have Fatigue disabled.

 

--

 

Which feedback do you respond to? The feedback people are telling you, or what you observe?

 

 

I'm not commenting on the new iteration of fatigue (stamina), but on the motive behind changing it. I thought the old system only needed 2 things: lower rate of increase of fatigue when load (kg) under 10-15kg. And an optional fatigue bar for fatigue management prior to combat ineffectiveness. The heavy breathing was not a good indicator, as about 80% of the community plays in 3rd person, and you can't hear breath in 3rd person. Also it is an indicator that you are already fatigued, not a tool to effectively manage it. 

 

But I do see where they are coming from, with a desire for a fatigue/stamina system which is more widely accepted in the community.

[en3x 209]

Good game designers put less weight in verbal feedback than they do in observed feedback.

 

Here's the difference:

 

100 people tell them via PMs that Fatigue system is great!

 

Meanwhile

 

100 of the more popular scenarios have Fatigue disabled.

 

--

 

Which feedback do you respond to? The feedback people are telling you, or what you observe?

But Fatigue may not be disabled because of players, like in case of competition, it was

simply because of novelty and the fact that AIs can't manage fatigue system.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Also regarding realism/mil-sim/etc...

 

BI already has a military simulator title, VBS. 

 

Why you build the ArmA 3 becoming a run-of-the-mill game?

 

Market share :)

[en3x 209]

You probably know this but I'm saying it just so we can spread knowledeg

 

Bohemia interactive (ARMA 3)

 

it's different company then

 

Bohemia simulation (VBS)

[x3kj 1247]

Good game designers put less weight in verbal feedback than they do in observed feedback.

Good game designers listen to all feedback equally and then apply common sense to how to interpret this. Observed feedback also includes people who are not happy but don't know why / can't put their finger on what irks them -> can't give valuable feedback. Additionally they would have to be commited/involved enough to register here and give verbal feedback.

Point in case - you don't know if/how many people disabled fatigue because they do not want fatigue at all. Or if they thought the system was badly designed and/or they felt that it did not represent reality very well and as such chose to rather play without it then with a sub-par implementation.

[Variable 322]

Ultimately, we have to compare the performance of the system against our originally stated design goals. In my view, if our end goal is to create a mechanic that:

• Encourages players to consider their loadout
• Asks players to plan their movement
• Rewards players that make objectively better choices
• Prohibits players from selecting unrealistic loadouts
• Is transparent and comprehensible for players

I don't think, assuming that the system will remain mostly intact, that 4 out of 5 are accomplished:

1. If the ability to sprint is all you lose, the consideration to keep loadouta light is negligible.

2. The inability to sprint is negligible to the purpose of "movement planning".

3. The penalty, read - inability to sprint, is not enough of a punishment for packing up crazy loadouts

4. The system,currently, does certainly NOT prohibit players from selecting unrealistic loadouts.

And one more thing - default movement (read - jogging) SHOULD be punishable if heavy loadouts are carried.

[Beagle 684]

So in the end what we will get is the return of the ArmA II marathon guided missile machinegunsniper saboteur. Was the whole mechanic not meant to prevent exactly that?

As someone who is hauling 20kg of Equipment quite often in RL over distances in rough terrain I just can shaKe my head...100m of sprint is all I can get get out of my body in that condition and after that there is not much going on for 5 minutes. Rather than making it more and more convenient the users should begin to learn that a human being, even a trained one, can not perform something by pure will. You might want to go faster but you simply can't.

 

I've hauled around machineguns and RPGs for long enough to know that walking is the normal pace in combat. Walking makes you less visible and preserves your stamina. there is no gain in entering a combat area near physical collapse. The game should, no it MUST, reflect that or otherwise we are at the beginning again as nothing is won in 14 years into the series.

[stfcrb 16]

So in the end what we will get is the return of the ArmA II marathon guided missile machinegunsniper saboteur. Was the whole mechanic not meant to prevent exactly that?

As someone who is hauling 20kg of Equipment quite often in RL over distances in rough terrain I just can shale my head....100m of sprint is all I can get get out of my body in that condition and after that there is not much going on for 5 minutes. Rather thsn making it more and more convenient the users should begin to learn that a human beeing, even a trained one,  can not perform something by pure will. You might want to go faster but you simply can't.

 

I've hauled around Machineguns and RPGs for logn enough to know that walking is the normal pace in combat. Walking makes you less visible and preserves your stamina. he is no gain in entring a combat area near physical collapse. The game should, no it MUST, reflect thator otherwise we are at the beginning again is nothing is won in 14 years into the series.

 

This is definitely the reality of combat.

I can atest to that. I completely understand that arma cannot replicate exactly what real life combat pacing is like. Very slow, lots of walking. It would be boring. So the light arma jog replaces the slow and meticulous walking of real life. 

 

The old fatigue system really wasn't that bad. The main complant I had with it was that it often times was far too harsh. To be a default AT or Missile Specialist was always a nightmare. Even with the most bare bones loadout (.I.E. carbine no optic, 5 mags, a smoke, a frag, light rig, two missles/rockets) I was always falling out of formations and weezing. Aside from that, it concept was great. It allowed for better team cooperation and added a dynamic to most missions. Sad to see it go.

[Varanon 892]

100 of the more popular scenarios have Fatigue disabled.

 

 

Which 100 popular scenarios ? Arma 3 Life ? Wasteland ? Any of those scenarios that rely on one-man armies ? Of course do they turn off fatigue, after all, they have a lot of running with lots of weight.

 

And why should that be a more serious feedback than 10000 "less popular" scenarios on the workshop that still have fatigue enabled ?

 

Sorry, that doesn't compute.

 

Edit: Plus, I bet that those 100 popular scenarios will also immediately disable the new fatigue system as well

[Varanon 892]

So in the end what we will get is the return of the ArmA II marathon guided missile machinegunsniper saboteur. Was the whole mechanic not meant to prevent exactly that?

As someone who is hauling 20kg of Equipment quite often in RL over distances in rough terrain I just can shaKe my head...100m of sprint is all I can get get out of my body in that condition and after that there is not much going on for 5 minutes. Rather than making it more and more convenient the users should begin to learn that a human being, even a trained one, can not perform something by pure will. You might want to go faster but you simply can't.

 

I've hauled around machineguns and RPGs for long enough to know that walking is the normal pace in combat. Walking makes you less visible and preserves your stamina. there is no gain in entering a combat area near physical collapse. The game should, no it MUST, reflect that or otherwise we are at the beginning again as nothing is won in 14 years into the series.

 

Fully agreed.

 

I can understand that some concession needs to be made, Arma being a game and all, but at the VERY least don't regenerate stamina while running, and give heavy loadouts a meaningful penalty

[supercereal4 29]

I know this was asked a few times, but really:

 

What is the downside and the problem of the old system+ the visual bar(which should be included as irl you would easily understand how fatigues you are)? Is there any?

 

AI was the only one but I haven't seen BIS mentionin that. AI likes to keep their gun up and do all kinds of small movement so they can get tired more quick than the player. That's why I thought we will get couple compromises in the old system and also some tweaks and fixes here and there, but nope.

 

 

Going off that- the old system addressed 4 of RiE's points perfectly

 

• Encourages players to consider their loadout
• Asks players to plan their movement
• Rewards players that make objectively better choices
• Prohibits players from selecting unrealistic loadouts

 

So I don't see what advantages this system has over the old in achieving these goals.

 

 

On another note, one of the most innovated features of the old fatigue system that I found to be the most realistic and unappreciated was the slowdown of animations when you're fatigued. To my understanding this is gone now? That would be a shame. Especially to people who are used to doing this sort of stuff IRL. In fact, I'm sure anyone can relate to that feature. We've all seen ourselves start to slow down after continuous vigorous activity. I thought that feature was one of the most realistic features in any game I've played-- truly innovative.